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There is no God.

Penderyn said:
Leo - I've said it elsewhere (names beginning T or I) but thinking about you and wishing you and your family well.
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Thanks Iolo. I'm actually gobsmacked at how kind almost everyone (including you) has been. I'm just angry and can't work things out at the moment - I'll get over it, but his big smile will never come back.
 
Leo said:
I do not say this lightly, and I apologise if it offends those with deep religious beliefs. But consider this.

I have two cousins, both males; one is 19 and the other will be 15 in December. My younger cousin is a really nice kid. Helpful to his mum, always with a big smile, and never gets into the sort of sh*t most fifteen year olds do. He is no mensa, but quite good at school, and a great cricketer.

Well, several months ago, he started feeling off and bringing up his food. Off to the doctors, then off to have several scans, and they found a sizeable cancer on his oesophagus. Today he is haemorrhaging massively, and on morphine, and his mother is sitting by his hospital bed waiting for her youngest son to die (which will probably be in the next 24-48 hours).

I saw him a few days ago and he was barely strong enough to speak, but I tried talking to him about sport, and stuff he was interested in.

So yeah, I know there's loads more tragic stuff happening around the world, but a really nice kid like him having to go through all that pain and then die is surely no sign of a Divine Being who cares for us. I am not ever setting foot in a church again (well, maybe for his funeral service) and I am finished with the idea of God.

The religious amongst you can all have a go at me - I don't care, and I am not walking on eggshells any more.
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I am truly sorry for your loss.
 
Goshin said:
If there is no God, no afterlife, no soul or spiritual realm, if it is all just matter and biology and the cold vacuum between the stars, if we are just animals and when we die we're just dead meat.... then everything is utterly meaningless, ultimately. If that is true, then one day that boy's life and suffering will mean nothing, because soon every mind that knew him will cease to exist and all memory of him will perish. One day all humanity will be gone and we will know nothing, remember nothing, and be remembered by no one, and every act of kindness or hate, every act of love and every moment of joy or suffering, will all mean exactly Zero.
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Why wouldn't life be meaningful of its own accord? Why are my experiences and feelings meaningless without being infinite? It seems quite silly to me that only an unending achievement is one worthy of consideration. Whether Jonas Salk is floating around in some forever place or is simply gone, his actions saved lives and made people healthier and happier. Norman Borlaug saved a billion lives, regardless of cosmic reward. To suggest that life is meaningless without eternal significance suggests that how we feel at any given moment doesn't matter either. It doesn't matter if we're happy, or sad, or hungry, or in pain, or in the middle of an orgasm. Forever is not a prerequisite for happiness or meaning. Find meaning in the small things you experience every day, the same ones that you think shows that god is there. There's connection, learning, joy, pain, sorrow, excitement, fun, fear... all manner of amazing experiences. Why can't changing things for a while be good enough? Why isn't it sufficient to bring joy to those you love, and finish your time alive and be satisfied with it?

As to the kindness of god and the coldness of the universe... A cold universe has no intelligence behind it. It does not make choices. It simply exists. It does not prioritize one person over another. It is fair. A god with intelligence, who picks and chooses who lives and who dies, who is comfortable and who suffers? That's a being consciously choosing to inflict pain. That's evil.

I have no doubt that Leo's young cousin enriched the lives of those around him. And that is not meaningless.
 
Thunder said:
the Messiah will come when he is damn good & ready, and when the people of the Earth deserve him.

many Hasidic Jews constantly urge the people of the world to do acts of kindness and love, in order to bring the Messiah.
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The Messiah did come, when He comes again it will be to bring judgement ;)
 
digsbe said:
The Messiah did come, when He comes again it will be to bring judgement ;)
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as far as the original Jewish concept of the Messiah is concerned, he has not yet shown his face.

its not our fault Christians can't understand our holy scriptures.
 
Thunder said:
as far as the original Jewish concept of the Messiah is concerned, he has not yet shown his face.

its not our fault Christians can't understand our holy scriptures.
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It's not my fault that you reject the truth in order to cling to your own ignorance ;)
 
digsbe said:
It's not my fault that you reject the truth in order to cling to your own ignorance ;)
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no, I admit the truth...that Jesus failed to fulfill any of the Jewish understandings of what the Messiah would be.

that fact that we still exist in the millions while Christians are still trying desperately to convert us, vindicates our beliefs.
 
Thunder said:
no, I admit the truth...that Jesus failed to fulfill any of the Jewish understandings of what the Messiah would be.

that fact that we still exist in the millions while Christians are still trying desperately to convert us, vindicates our beliefs.
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The Jews were looking for a warrior to restore Israel from the occupation of the Romans. They selfishly interpreted the prophecies to mean that. They didn't see how the Messiah was to come and cleanse the Jews and Gentiles of their sins through the fulfillment of the Law of Moses.

You do realize that the early Christian leaders were Jews that recognized Jesus as the Messiah right? In fact, early Christians were called "followers of the Way" and were Jews themselves who believed that Jesus was the Messiah. I respect the Jewish faith even though I disagree with it. You call yourself Jewish, yet you just admitted that you are a deist. How is this so?
 
digsbe said:
The Jews were looking for a warrior to restore Israel from the occupation of the Romans. They selfishly interpreted the prophecies to mean that. They didn't see how the Messiah was to come and cleanse the Jews and Gentiles of their sins through the fulfillment of the Law of Moses.

You do realize that the early Christian leaders were Jews that recognized Jesus as the Messiah right? In fact, early Christians were called "followers of the Way" and were Jews themselves who believed that Jesus was the Messiah. I respect the Jewish faith even though I disagree with it. You call yourself Jewish, yet you just admitted that you are a deist. How is this so?
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the number of prophecies in the OT that Christians have purposefully & dishonestly misinterpretated to refer to the Messiah, are many.

nevermind the many inconsistencies in the NT itself.

but this is all for another thread.
 
Thunder said:
the number of prophecies in the OT that Christians have purposefully & dishonestly misinterpretated to refer to the Messiah, are many.

nevermind the many inconsistencies in the NT itself.

but this is all for another thread.
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I respectfully disagree with you. I believe that Christians have properly interpreted the Messianic prophecies and rightly apply the Title of Messiah to Jesus, who is the Messiah.

But I agree, this is for another thread.
 
Thunder said:
as far as the original Jewish concept of the Messiah is concerned, he has not yet shown his face.

its not our fault Christians can't understand our holy scriptures.
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There are Jews who disagree. Never heard of Jews for Jesus?

And btw... since when are you Jewish?
 
Goshin said:
There are Jews who disagree. Never heard of Jews for Jesus?

And btw... since when are you Jewish?
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Jews for Jesus, are no longer Jews...at least from a religous perspective.

I became a Jew after I was circumsized and Bar-Mitzvahed.
 
I am sorry for your loss, Leo. I know what it is like to see someone so young and so vital struck down so senselessly, and I know that words can provide precious little comfort. If you can, remember that his suffering will soon be over, and his name will yet live on among your family and among those whose lives he has touched. You bring him honor by remembering.
 
Thunder said:
Jews for Jesus, are no longer Jews...at least from a religous perspective.

I became a Jew after I was circumsized and Bar-Mitzvahed.
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News to me. I thought you said you were a Deist or something.
 
Goshin said:
News to me. I thought you said you were a Deist or something.
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Well, according to Jewish law, I remain a Jew even if I stop believing in Judaism.

which...also means Jews for Jesus remain Jews. Though they are Apostate Jews while I am just a lax Jew. :)
 
I feel for your situation, but let me offer you a different perspective.

God is not separate from us, it is us. Whatever is happening to the people of the world is God expressing itself through many different masks and situations. Whether you are suffering or in bliss, whether you are rich or poor, and whether you are atheist or theist, we are all part of the same fabric of the Universe which is Divine.

When I see people who are ill or suffering, I see them as God manifest, and they are here to do Divine work. When you die, you simply return to what you were always part of. The only change is the death of the ego, and the ego was never real in the first place. Someone told you that you're a "you", that you're separate, and over the course of your life there have been consecutive layers added to that delusion to make you feel individual and worry for your own soul. There is no need to worry, you're already connected and there's nothing you have to do to connect further.

Given this truth, it means that compassion, salvation, and interpretation of death are all up to the human race. All the world is a stage and what you do with the play being shown to you is ultimately your choice.
 
Thunder said:
Well, according to Jewish law, I remain a Jew even if I stop believing in Judaism.

which...also means Jews for Jesus remain Jews. Though they are Apostate Jews while I am just a lax Jew. :)
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But we aren't 'rabbis', and 'we', goyim, do not abide by jewish law...and strangely, neither do you. Your blood runs as red as ours, if you don't believe as a jew, you are no jew but is as much as a gentile as I am. At least Jews for Jesus still abide by the books of the Torah, though they add to it. You don't, my friend. You can call yourself whatever you wish, but don't expect people to call you a jew. The fact that your mother may or may not be jewish, does not mean you are superior, in fact you are the same as me, whether you like it or not.

Secular jews these days...I hate oxymorons.
 
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DarkWizard12 said:
...if you don't believe as a jew, you are no jew but is as much as a gentile as I am. At least Jews for Jesus steal abide by the books of the Torah, though they add to it. You don't, my friend. You can call yourself whatever you wish, but don't expect people to call you a jew.
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Jewish is also more than just a faith. It is also a people, an ethnicity, and a culture....in fact a group of cultures.

I am indeed a bad Jew..but I am still a Jew. Jews for Jesus are also bad Jews, as they have taken on another faith.
 
Temporal said:
I feel for your situation, but let me offer you a different perspective.

God is not separate from us, it is us. Whatever is happening to the people of the world is God expressing itself through many different masks and situations. Whether you are suffering or in bliss, whether you are rich or poor, and whether you are atheist or theist, we are all part of the same fabric of the Universe which is Divine.

When I see people who are ill or suffering, I see them as God manifest, and they are here to do Divine work. When you die, you simply return to what you were always part of. The only change is the death of the ego, and the ego was never real in the first place. Someone told you that you're a "you", that you're separate, and over the course of your life there have been consecutive layers added to that delusion to make you feel individual and worry for your own soul. There is no need to worry, you're already connected and there's nothing you have to do to connect further.

Given this truth, it means that compassion, salvation, and interpretation of death are all up to the human race. All the world is a stage and what you do with the play being shown to you is ultimately your choice.
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The problem with the OP is that, understandbly, is a person overwhelmed with emotion, and therefore, his own faith is shattered because of his OWN, immature and childish view of God. I bet when he went to whatever religious school, he never really cared to 'think' or 'develop' a serious theology and just nodded his head to whatever his priest told him, and so once life seeked to grey his hair, he sacrifices his belief in God, as if that would solve ANYTHING, considering how useless his unexamined faith was to begin with.

Sorry Leo but, though I sympathize with your problems, what you are doing I neither grasp the logic of, nor does it get any respect from me, which should tell you something considering I am a quick to embrace anyone who has to change their views on God and his existence, due to the 'problem of evil/suffering'.
 
Thunder said:
Jewish is also more than just a faith. It is also a people, an ethnicity, and a culture....in fact a group of cultures.

I am indeed a bad Jew..but I am still a Jew. Jews for Jesus are also bad Jews, as they have taken on another faith.
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And how do you think those are all connected? By the Torah, the covenant, yes? By denying God, you deny the covenant, and if you deny the covenant, you are not part of the covenant and you are no jew. At least jews for jesus still claim to be a part of it. However, you are not, and still you call yourself a jew? What a laugh.

A 'bad jew' is simply a religious jew who fails, but you? well...If it walks like a gentile, talks like a gentile, acts like a gentile...then it's a gentile, I would say, It doesn't matter what culture you adopt.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
And how do you think those are all connected? By the Torah, the covenant, yes? By denying God, you deny the covenant, and if you deny the covenant, you are not part of the covenant and you are no jew....
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not according to the rules & laws of Judaism.

Jewishness isn't like Christianity or Islam. It is a people, many of us having ancestors going ALL the way back to the time of Jesus, who were Jews.

One cannot undo their Jewishness. Sorry.
 
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Thunder said:
Jewish is also more than just a faith. It is also a people, an ethnicity, and a culture....in fact a group of cultures.

I am indeed a bad Jew..but I am still a Jew. Jews for Jesus are also bad Jews, as they have taken on another faith.
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Why do you have the right to judge Messianic Jews as "bad Jews" while you yourself are a deist? As a Jew do you believe that God has kept His promise to the children of Isaac? Do you believe that God is active in the world and sovereign over all things? That is what Judaism teaches yet deism rejects. Jews for Jesus, or Messianic Jews, are Jewish people who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. How are Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah apostates while you yourself as a deist are not? Your arguments are hypocritical and contradictory.
 
Thunder said:
not according to the rules & laws of Judaism.

Jewishness isn't like Christianity or Islam. It is a people, many of us having ancestors going ALL the way back to the time of Jesus, who were Jews.

One cannot undo their Jewishness. Sorry.
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But does it matter? The world doesn't operate by the 'rules' of jewish law(in fact, we both know, the world is set against them, hehe). You can call yourself whatever you wish, but as far as the world is concerned, that doesn't make it so. Not in this day and age, my friend, you are just another regular person, a goyim, who seems set to personify himself as some jew who refuses to act like a jew.

The world likes reason and logic today. to call yourself a jew, but not really do as a jew should, is both unreasonable and illogical. Either a be a jew, or show us how meaningless judaism really is to you.
 
digsbe said:
Why do you have the right to judge Messianic Jews as "bad Jews" while you yourself are a deist? As a Jew do you believe that God has kept His promise to the children of Isaac? Do you believe that God is active in the world and sovereign over all things? That is what Judaism teaches yet deism rejects. Jews for Jesus, or Messianic Jews, are Jewish people who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. How are Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah apostates while you yourself as a deist are not? Your arguments are hypocritical and contradictory.
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Exactly. At least southern babtists are religious, this 'jew' exhibits the same hypocrisy in reverse! The irony here is outstanding! It's both a disappointment...yet it makes me so strangely happy....
 
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