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Does Religion Have the Burden of Proof?

What one is willing to accept as proof of God: Subjective

Yes, one can subjectively accept proof. That doesn't change whether or not the proof actually proves anything.

Quite provable. Touch a hot burner and you are punished with a burned hand. What is a punishment and what is a reward: Subjective

Burning your hand is not punishment. Punishment is the action of a mind, not of universal physical laws. If someone shoves a hot burner in your face in order to show you their displeasure at something you did, that's a punishment. Stubbing your toe on a chair is just bad luck.

I would say quite provable with the understanding that 1) there are always exceptions and thus "universal" means more of a super super majority. 2) the definition of any given "universal moral" varies from person to person and group to group.

That's not what universal means. Universal means that it is always true no matter what anyone thinks.

For example, there is a universal moral against murder. I can't think of a society that doesn't have a moral and thus laws against murder. However, one group may consider the premeditated killing of someone outside their group to be not murder, while another group may consider the premeditated killing of an animal, even for food, to be murder. I understand that there will be those who say that because the application is not universal then the moral is not universal, but this is my argument for it.

There is not a universal condemnation of murder and never has been. Everything you have described is specific to whatever group is suggesting it.

Having a given preference is objective. The preference itself is subjective

Again what constitutes harm or good is subjective.

You clearly do not understand the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. Harm and good can absolutely be quantified and measured.

All of your counter arguments are, objectively, wrong.
 
Yes, one can subjectively accept proof. That doesn't change whether or not the proof actually proves anything.



Burning your hand is not punishment. Punishment is the action of a mind, not of universal physical laws. If someone shoves a hot burner in your face in order to show you their displeasure at something you did, that's a punishment. Stubbing your toe on a chair is just bad luck.



That's not what universal means. Universal means that it is always true no matter what anyone thinks.



There is not a universal condemnation of murder and never has been. Everything you have described is specific to whatever group is suggesting it.



You clearly do not understand the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. Harm and good can absolutely be quantified and measured.

All of your counter arguments are, objectively, wrong.

I was hoping you'd comment on my examples to your questions. After all, you asked me to give examples, not maqiuscat
 
Burning your hand is not punishment. Punishment is the action of a mind, not of universal physical laws. If someone shoves a hot burner in your face in order to show you their displeasure at something you did, that's a punishment. Stubbing your toe on a chair is just bad luck.

Subjective. Some people would tell you that there is no such thing as luck and that stubbing your toe is due to inattention. Therefore the stubbed toe is a punishment. Again what is a punishment or reward is subjective.

That's not what universal means. Universal means that it is always true no matter what anyone thinks.

Then there is pretty much nothing universal. Exceptions to most things seem to abound.

You clearly do not understand the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. Harm and good can absolutely be quantified and measured.

All of your counter arguments are, objectively, wrong.

Given that what is harmful and what is good can always be subjective. Is wealth redistribution harmful or good? Depend on who you ask. Is the use of nuclear power to generate electricity harmful or good. Again.... For that matter is genocide harmful or good? Those committing the genocide would say it was good. It doesn't matter if the majority holds something to be harmful or good, it is still subjective.
 
and to heap hypocrisy ontop of hypocrisy, they wonder why they're the least respected minority in the US

this is another example of why i no longer take you seriously and why debating you is a waste of time.
 
I was hoping you'd comment on my examples to your questions. After all, you asked me to give examples, not maqiuscat

Sorry! I didn't see yours. Your responses are better anyway.

If you made a claim about what I believe then you would be making a claim about an objective truth.

And experiences can't be measured objectively. Their effects, maybe, but not the experience themselves.

And no matter what you quantify about the differences between vanilla and chocolate, that says nothing about (the quality of) my experience.

My belief in Gods' existence: Subjective

The belief that events are, in and of themselves, anything more than consequences: subjective

The belief in a universal system of morality: subjective

Objective to you, Subjective to me

Concepts of harm and good: subjective

Actually, you seem to have the same problem...

Your belief is objective. Whether or not you believe or what you believe in is an objective fact. Your reasoning is based on subjective interpretation. The only things that are actually subjective are conclusions. That's really it. Your belief has no bearing on whether or not those beliefs are correct.

The content of your beliefs are subjective, because of how they were reached. My dislike of broccoli is subjective, because I do not like the taste, but my disliking broccoli is an objective fact. The broccoli does not tasty salty is objective. Whether or not I like chocolate is objective, why I like chocolate is subjective. See the difference?

So, really the only things that are subjective are opinions. And since my question related to "subjective evidence"... an opinion is not evidence.

So... to return to this subjective evidence... What is it?
 
I do. It's a habit with atheists to expect theists to back up their claims while refusing to do the same. And to heap hypocrisy ontop of hypocrisy, they wonder why they're the least respected minority in the US

No one likes that one smart kid in class who wrecks the curve for everyone else. And probably because the majority of religions describe us as intrinsically evil for dissenting. And we do back up our claims. Constantly.
 
Sorry! I didn't see yours. Your responses are better anyway.



Actually, you seem to have the same problem...

Your belief is objective. Whether or not you believe or what you believe in is an objective fact. Your reasoning is based on subjective interpretation. The only things that are actually subjective are conclusions. That's really it. Your belief has no bearing on whether or not those beliefs are correct.


The content of your beliefs are subjective, because of how they were reached. My dislike of broccoli is subjective, because I do not like the taste, but my disliking broccoli is an objective fact. The broccoli does not tasty salty is objective. Whether or not I like chocolate is objective, why I like chocolate is subjective. See the difference?

So, really the only things that are subjective are opinions. And since my question related to "subjective evidence"... an opinion is not evidence.

So... to return to this subjective evidence... What is it?

I agree. Maybe my wording was unclear, or maybe it's just a difficult concept to explain, but I think you just did an excellent job of it. That's exactly what I was trying to convey.

And to answer your question, I'd say that subjective evidence is evidence based on experience and perception.
 
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No one likes that one smart kid in class who wrecks the curve for everyone else. And probably because the majority of religions describe us as intrinsically evil for dissenting. And we do back up our claims. Constantly.

More like "usually", and the evidence for that is scourges' refusal to back up his bigoted claims about believers.

But now I wonder if you have evidence that "the majority of religions (as opposed to "the majority of the religious"-ED) describe us (ie atheists-ED) as intrinsically evil"
 
And to answer your question, I'd say that subjective evidence is evidence based on experience and perception.

Evidence isn't really evidence unless it's unbiased, objective, and verifiable by outside sources. You don't often get a conviction with one witness. You need corroborating evidence. You need multiple witnesses. You need motive... all that. So, I understand what you're referring to... I just wouldn't say that qualifies as "evidence". Not unless every person is capable of observing the same evidence and it only having one interpretation.

More like "usually", and the evidence for that is scourges' refusal to back up his bigoted claims about believers.

But now I wonder if you have evidence that "the majority of religions (as opposed to "the majority of the religious"-ED) describe us (ie atheists-ED) as intrinsically evil"

I said religions on purpose. Clearly, only those specific people who buy into the notion of intrinsic evil make the leap, and only the really smug ones bring it up in conversation. Not exactly the widest sample size. But it does say, in clear black and white, in both the new testament and the qur'an, that non-believers are just as bad, if not worse, than murderers.
 
Evidence isn't really evidence unless it's unbiased, objective, and verifiable by outside sources. You don't often get a conviction with one witness. You need corroborating evidence. You need multiple witnesses. You need motive... all that. So, I understand what you're referring to... I just wouldn't say that qualifies as "evidence". Not unless every person is capable of observing the same evidence and it only having one interpretation.

Not true. Granted that it's not "scientific evidence' but its still evidence. And in a court of law, people testify as to their state of mind all the time. And sometimes people do get convicted on the basis of uncorroborated evidence. It's the jurys' job to decide if evidence submitted is credible or not. They do not need corroboration to accept testimony as both truthful and accurate. In a courtroom the jury is the "finder of fact"




I said religions on purpose. Clearly, only those specific people who buy into the notion of intrinsic evil make the leap, and only the really smug ones bring it up in conversation. Not exactly the widest sample size. But it does say, in clear black and white, in both the new testament and the qur'an, that non-believers are just as bad, if not worse, than murderers.

Tne I'll point out that not all religions promote the idea of intrinsic evil. It is a concept of western religions, but most religious people are not followers of western religions. You seem like a pretty reasonable poster, which is why I find it odd that you seem to be citing your experiences with religious people (at least your reference to sample size suggests that) after rejecting experience as not "really evidence"
 
Not true. Granted that it's not "scientific evidence' but its still evidence. And in a court of law, people testify as to their state of mind all the time. And sometimes people do get convicted on the basis of uncorroborated evidence. It's the jurys' job to decide if evidence submitted is credible or not. They do not need corroboration to accept testimony as both truthful and accurate. In a courtroom the jury is the "finder of fact"

But no one concludes objective facts from their state of mind. Those kinds of questions are like "were you scared?" which is actually an objective question. WHY that person was scared is subjective. But whether or not they are scared is objective. And yes, there are bad juries.

Tne I'll point out that not all religions promote the idea of intrinsic evil. It is a concept of western religions, but most religious people are not followers of western religions. You seem like a pretty reasonable poster, which is why I find it odd that you seem to be citing your experiences with religious people (at least your reference to sample size suggests that) after rejecting experience as not "really evidence"

That is true, less than half the world follows western religions, though plenty of other belief systems involve intrinsic evil. That was hardly a new concept when the Jews first put down their thoughts.

Yes, I used some personal experience, but I was relating facts, not feelings. I was repeating what was said to me. And I did then mention the limitations of my point. I do not claim that all religious people are like that, just far too many.
 
But no one concludes objective facts from their state of mind. Those kinds of questions are like "were you scared?" which is actually an objective question. WHY that person was scared is subjective. But whether or not they are scared is objective. And yes, there are bad juries.

I did not say that they conclude objective facts from such testimony. I was merely refuting your claim that this kind of evidence was not useful in court.


That is true, less than half the world follows western religions, though plenty of other belief systems involve intrinsic evil. That was hardly a new concept when the Jews first put down their thoughts.

Yes, I used some personal experience, but I was relating facts, not feelings. I was repeating what was said to me. And I did then mention the limitations of my point. I do not claim that all religious people are like that, just far too many.

Fair enough. I suspected you were reasonable. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

And for the record, I am not unconcerned by those with such primitively simplistic beliefs, which I believe foster extremism. However, these tendencies do seem to be receding, albeit slowly.
 
I very much hope you're right.

I can't prove it, but I have faith that progress is inevitable. While we (both here in the US and elsewhere) do sometimes backslide, over the long-term history has shown a steady march towards prosperity and liberty
 
This is an inappropriate response. just stating that I am wrong doesn't mean much. Show it. By the way unicorns to science are not mythology. They can be studied by biology because they are an animal.

Please tell me about it, "really"
 
No. Most religions are faith-based. Christianity, the one I'm most familiar with, for instance, is such a religion. If definitive proof was available for every facet of Christianity, where would there be room for faith?

Maybe the point is that, in the case of Christianity, it isn't about following along because you've been shown that something is so beyond a shadow of a doubt -- anybody would do that, that's an ordinary reaction -- instead, maybe it's all about people who choose to have faith based on a deeper/different type of understanding. Faith isn't necessary if one has definitive proof -- the burden of believing by faith is a different burden altogether.

If you ask me, it is more difficult to believe in something via faith than to believe based on a plethora of experiential evidence. That's the point, it isn't supposed to be handed to you on a silver platter -- you have to come to believe in a different way.



That's all you can expect when the religion is explicitly based on the faith of the individual. If you feel that all claims must be proven via scientific investigation for you to accept them, that's fine, but that has nothing to do with faith -- so there's the disconnect.

Then there is the other. I am an athiest, but I believe there is a natural undeietetic power, and I have a beleif AND FAITH in it.
 
Any preacher I've talked to or researched has ultimately stated that religious doctrine, specifically Christianity, is not expected to have scientific proof. It is a belief, and in order to subscribe to it, you simply have to accept that belief - unfounded and unbacked by science.

As an Atheist, I reject religion largely due to a lack of proof. But that's the conflict: the religious assert that none should be forthcoming.

My question is...should anyone expect religion to produce any proof of its Deity, practices, or claims? Rather, should we just put religion on the platform of simple belief and keep it there?

What I'm trying to decide is if it's simply OK for society to be comfortable with the idea that Christianity does not back up its doctrine with science. While Atheists demand proof, maybe we shouldn't. Maybe Christianity should never attempt to find science validating its claims - and simply be reserved as a belief-system that you either accept or reject.

Ultimately, everyone has faith in something, whether that be an individual thing ("reason" or "God"), or a system of belief ("evidentialism", "scientism", or "Christianity"). This is the result of the epistemological problem of infinite regression. In other words, if you want to justify a belief, you have to use other beliefs to justify it. Which leads you to ask how you can justify those beliefs. So, you use other beliefs to justify those, and then are faced with the question of how you can justify those...etc. Infinite regression leaves you facing Munchausen's Trilemma.

Ultimately, there are three basic solutions to Munchausen's Trilemma (and several advanced ones I'll leave for the academics to argue over), foundationalism, coherentism, and infinitism. In essence, this is because we can restate the problem as follows: "Either the process of producing reasons stops at a foundational proposition, or it doesn't. If it does then the reasoner is a foundationlist. If it doesn't then either the reasoning is circular or infinite".

The first solution is to do as Descartes did and question every belief until you get to a belief that is "properly basic"; that is, a belief which requires no justification and can be considered self-evident. Descartes settled on the foundational belief "I think, therefore I am". This point of view is referred to as foundationalism. It still relies on faith, but it limits it to faith in a few beliefs considered "properly basic" which can then be used to support all of your other beliefs. When it comes to belief in God, this is where "Reformed Epistemology" sits; it is an epistemology that argues that belief in God is a "properly basic" (foundational) belief.

The second solution is referred to as coherentism. In this view, beliefs are considered justified only if they coherently fit into a larger system of beliefs that support each other. In this case, we assume that while we cannot show that any individual belief is justified on its own, we can create a system of beliefs that prop each other up and any belief can be considered justified if it fits within the larger system. This has traditionally been a less desireable solution because it leaves us with nothing but circular reasoning. Nevertheless, it does find widespread support. I don't know of any formal theological epistemology that takes this route, but it's not difficult to see how religious beliefs could form part of a larger system of coherent beliefs that could then be considered justified; in theology these systems of belief already exist and are referred to as "systematic theologies".

The third solution is infinitism which is basically the acceptance that there is no way out of the regression problem. Very little work, that I know of, has gone into promoting this position, primarily because its been considered akin to giving up and those who give up are more likely to embrace skepticism than to try to resolve Munchausen's Trilemma.

All this to say that, yes, we should be as comfortable with accepting Christianity without requiring it back up its doctrine as we are of accepting science without requiring it prove scientism. Ultimately all epistemologies are without a justification that is not either faith based or circular.

Futher reading if this interests you:
Epistemology (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
*Note: this is a great resource. If you want more information on a specific topic within the page (say you want more detail on foundationalism, for example), you can just type in the search box.



**Bah...didn't realize this was a really old post by someone that has long since been banned before I replied to it. Oh well, I'll leave my reply here anyway although the debate has long since evolved in other directions.
 
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