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Communists on DP

Kyle Phoenix said:
Most countries ruled by communist parties (which we'll call "communist countries" for the sake of argument) had fairly mixed records, with some successes as well as failures. There isn't any reason to exclude them from consideration as Marxism and Communism do entail authoritarian systems of government based on the "dictatorship" of the proletariat/working class, particularly with Stalin's innovations in Marxist theory based on the "aggravation of the class struggle under socialism". There are really only two exceptions I can think of outside of the Marxist-Leninist model, both Anarchist-Communism, in Ukraine (during the Russian Civil War) and Catalonia (during the Spanish Civil War) but they only lasted a few years.

So it really depends what you mean by "successful"?
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I guess - I mean if that form of government is doomed to failure isn't it time to adopt a different political philosophy?
 
lurchadams said:
I guess - I mean if that form of government is doomed to failure isn't it time to adopt a different political philosophy?
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I have had to wrestle with that problem a great deal, and I still do frankly. The social pressures to conform and accept the conventional view are very strong. But if you took that view in the eighteenth century, we'd all still be living in feudal monarchies, ruled by the church and working as serfs and peasants. We would have drawn conclusions from the Greek City States and the Roman Republic that democracy is destined to fail and that the people are not capable of governing themselves, but require a strong and powerful leader to rule over them to contain their passions. Many would have said that democracy would inevitably produce anarchy and that it was a natural law that some men should govern and others should be governed and that it could not be based on equality.

So, the American and French revolutions would never have happened because Republican systems of government would be dismissed completely. We would have never heard of Thomas Jefferson or George Washington. And if they had got that far, it is also the argument that Abraham Lincoln could well have given up on the Union if he didn't believe that individual liberty and the republic was worth fighting for:

"It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

It seems extraordinarily unlikely that capitalism will last forever, adaptable as it is. As an economic system it has only been present for the past two or three hundred years, whereas before that you had feudalism, slavery and primitive "hunter-gatherer" societies. The argument that capitalism is natural or biologically innate is built on a distorted sense that what we are used in our own life times to is in fact what is inevitable. Over longer time spans, our understanding of ourselves as a species, our institutions and our morals can and do change, but definitely not overnight. I do not imagine that communism will be the dominant system of government around the globe in the next 10 years, but it is harder to say it cannot be the case for 100 years or 500 or a 1,000.

In the end, you have to make a choice to take the less popular route because you believe it is the right one and it is closer to the truth. At some point you just realise being a Communist is part of who you are and you would rather live your life wanting to dream about what is possible than to never have dreams or adventures at all. To the best of my knowledge, Marxism is closer to the truth than the conventional wisdom even if it has missed it's target in the past. Perhaps in the course of time it will demonstrate itself to be a truly scientific understanding of human society and then be capable of delivering what people hoped it would. But until then, you need people to fight that corner and keep the belief that we can do better alive. I probably won't be alive to find out but you can always hope. :)
 
Kyle Phoenix said:
I have had to wrestle with that problem a great deal, and I still do frankly. The social pressures to conform and accept the conventional view are very strong. But if you took that view in the eighteenth century, we'd all still be living in feudal monarchies, ruled by the church and working as serfs and peasants. We would have drawn conclusions from the Greek City States and the Roman Republic that democracy is destined to fail and that the people are not capable of governing themselves, but require a strong and powerful leader to rule over them to contain their passions. Many would have said that democracy would inevitably produce anarchy and that it was a natural law that some men should govern and others should be governed and that it could not be based on equality.

So, the American and French revolutions would never have happened because Republican systems of government would be dismissed completely. We would have never heard of Thomas Jefferson or George Washington. And if they had got that far, it is also the argument that Abraham Lincoln could well have given up on the Union if he didn't believe that individual liberty and the republic was worth fighting for:

"It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

It seems extraordinarily unlikely that capitalism will last forever, adaptable as it is. As an economic system it has only been present for the past two or three hundred years, whereas before that you had feudalism, slavery and primitive "hunter-gatherer" societies. The argument that capitalism is natural or biologically innate is built on a distorted sense that what we are used in our own life times to is in fact what is inevitable. Over longer time spans, our understanding of ourselves as a species, our institutions and our morals can and do change, but definitely not overnight. I do not imagine that communism will be the dominant system of government around the globe in the next 10 years, but it is harder to say it cannot be the case for 100 years or 500 or a 1,000.

In the end, you have to make a choice to take the less popular route because you believe it is the right one and it is closer to the truth. At some point you just realise being a Communist is part of who you are and you would rather live your life wanting to dream about what is possible than to never have dreams or adventures at all. To the best of my knowledge, Marxism is closer to the truth than the conventional wisdom even if it has missed it's target in the past. Perhaps in the course of time it will demonstrate itself to be a truly scientific understanding of human society and then be capable of delivering what people hoped it would. But until then, you need people to fight that corner and keep the belief that we can do better alive. I probably won't be alive to find out but you can always hope. :)
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After that last paragraph I expected you to break out in song!

Seriously, you have a great way with words and I encourage you to happily pursue you passion as long as no one gets hurt in the process.
 
lurchadams said:
I know I'm going to catch **** for this, but I'm too lazy to google. Can anyone give me an example of a successful communist country ever? And I'm not talking about authoritarian kleptocracies calling themselves communist!
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china?
 
Kyle Phoenix said:
hey there,

I was wondering if there are any other communists active on debate politics.com. The Profile Statistics do make it seem like a drop in the ocean of the total membership with 0.46%.

I have been a communist for over ten years and, although I remain sympathetic, I have lost the enthusiasm of the old days when I first started out. So I'm still curious to get to know if there are any other reds out there. :)
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lot's of trump backers here, you are not alone
 
We only have a few actual communists on this site.

Some people who couldn't define an ideology to save their life think otherwise, but oh well. The same goes for fascists on this site. We have only a few actual fascists, but quite a few people that get labeled as fascist.
 
lurchadams said:
China is an authoritarian dictatorship.
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last i read, the chinese are governed by the communist party

if i am wrong, please offer a cite so that i can confirm i was in error
 
justabubba said:
last i read, the chinese are governed by the communist party

if i am wrong, please offer a cite so that i can confirm i was in error
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Xi controls the party. At his command, they eliminated 'term limits', and Xi jinping has no opposition. The Chinese Communist Party | Council on Foreign Relations
Since President Xi Jinping came to power in 2012, he has consolidated his control over the infamously opaque party, with many experts calling him the most influential Chinese leader since Mao Zedong. In 2017, the CCP reaffirmed Xi’s dominance and elevated new officials to support him in setting the agenda for the second-largest economy in the world.
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Kyle Phoenix said:
hey there,

I was wondering if there are any other communists active on debate politics.com. The Profile Statistics do make it seem like a drop in the ocean of the total membership with 0.46%.

I have been a communist for over ten years and, although I remain sympathetic, I have lost the enthusiasm of the old days when I first started out. So I'm still curious to get to know if there are any other reds out there. :)
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Most of them have some variation of Liberal under their profiles.
 
Helix said:
I mean that I support single payer independent of where someone lives or works.
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With new zealand health service a woman giving birth is provided full hospital coverage and does not pay any money personally for medical treatment or hospital stay. Most of that cost is absorbed through taxes. In america,

But in the U.S., the average new mother with insurance will pay more than $4,500 for her labor and delivery, a new study in Health Affairs has found.
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There will always be funding problems and staff shortages to contend with in a public system But on something as basic as bringing a new person into the world this should be available to every woman.
 
Kyle Phoenix said:
When I started out in my teens, I was a Trotskyist. But I did read a few really good books on Marxist philosophy that meant I shifted more in the Marxist-Leninist direction as I came to appreciate some of the nuances more. I've never been particularly pro-Stalin, so it's always been a bit of a juggling act between being intrigued by the philosophy and appalled by the historical results and death tolls. Communism just never seems to have a happy ending.:D

I was a member of the Communist Party of Britain for less than a year (it was the biggest one in the UK, so it was a logical first place to start) and I considered joining the Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist) but I decided against it was they are too extreme. I've become more moderate since then but the influence remains strong. In most elections my first preference is voting Green, but otherwise I'll vote Labour. At the moment, I tend to think things are so screwed up that "eventually" a new economic and political model is going to be necessary. I would put climate change and environmental problems at the top of the list of things which need that to happen.
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I am not sure that trotsky was that much better, certainly a bit to slower with his own ice pick.

I have argued here that russia has never been a communist country. It has always been run by dictators. Some called themselves czars and others comrade. The likes of lenin used marxism in the way czars used a god. To do as they pleased.

And stalin was a paranoid psychopath. Russia has never been a communist country. But putting the fear of communism into them was easier to sell to the average white american than trying to push a war weary country into another fight.
 
soylentgreen said:
With new zealand health service a woman giving birth is provided full hospital coverage and does not pay any money personally for medical treatment or hospital stay. Most of that cost is absorbed through taxes. In america,



There will always be funding problems and staff shortages to contend with in a public system But on something as basic as bringing a new person into the world this should be available to every woman.
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our paternity leave is also abysmal. i had to go back to work almost immediately when my wife really needed some ****ing help. i'm still annoyed about that, and i don't consider it to be tough and rugged individualistic bootstrapping to be forced to abandon your family to go do whatever mundane task at work. i do consider it to be a stupid cultural thing, though, and i hope that it changes before my kiddo has little kiddos.
 
Enjoy your naval gazing experiment in Communism: A Scam Cloaked in Politick.

It's greatest success was Jim Jones' People's Temple.
 
Kyle Phoenix said:
hey there,

I was wondering if there are any other communists active on debate politics.com. The Profile Statistics do make it seem like a drop in the ocean of the total membership with 0.46%.

I have been a communist for over ten years and, although I remain sympathetic, I have lost the enthusiasm of the old days when I first started out. So I'm still curious to get to know if there are any other reds out there. :)
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I've been to 2 communist countries - The USSR (early 1991), and Cuba (10 years ago). All I saw was shared misery.
 
soylentgreen said:
I am not sure that trotsky was that much better, certainly a bit to slower with his own ice pick.

I have argued here that russia has never been a communist country. It has always been run by dictators. Some called themselves czars and others comrade. The likes of lenin used marxism in the way czars used a god. To do as they pleased.

And stalin was a paranoid psychopath. Russia has never been a communist country. But putting the fear of communism into them was easier to sell to the average white american than trying to push a war weary country into another fight.
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There wasn't actually a huge difference between Trotsky and Stalin in so far as they both broadly supported the October Revolution and the formation of the Soviet state. Beyond that, it gets more complicated given they have very different visions of what socialism looks like and whether socialism happens in one country or many.


Jredbaron96 said:
We only have a few actual communists on this site.

Some people who couldn't define an ideology to save their life think otherwise, but oh well. The same goes for fascists on this site. We have only a few actual fascists, but quite a few people that get labeled as fascist.
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I've begun to suspect that flat earthers actually outnumber communists, so that's not a huge surprise. The polling data for flat earthers is about 2-3% for the UK and the US, which is typically more than what Communists get in elections in both countries. I don't mind fascists (online at least) provided things stay civil and I've been friends with fascists so it doesn't bother me as much as it probably should. The problematic ones are usually noisy, so you can tend to get out of their way.
 
lurchadams said:
After that last paragraph I expected you to break out in song!

Seriously, you have a great way with words and I encourage you to happily pursue you passion as long as no one gets hurt in the process.
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Thanks. That is very much appreciated. I don't enjoy hurting people so I'll probably get along fine.

p.s. I don't sing, but I do try to have a sense of humour. So here's a song you may like if you want to humiliate North Korea. ;)

 
stevecanuck said:
I've been to 2 communist countries - The USSR (early 1991), and Cuba (10 years ago). All I saw was shared misery.
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I'm more than happy to take your word on it. You're welcome to share more about what it was like if you wish. :)
 
Kyle Phoenix said:
I'm more than happy to take your word on it. You're welcome to share more about what it was like if you wish. :)
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USSR - Just a bunch of miserable looking people going about doing what they had to do. Nobody joked with each other as they went along. Eyes forward and slightly downcast. I learned to read the alphabet and saw a sign that was spelled 'M, backwards R, C, A'. I asked our guide if it was pronounced 'Myasa', and she said it was. I then asked her what it meant. I still remember her response verbatim nearly 30 years later. She said, "It means meat. But is no meat. Is just sign". She knew that without having to go in.

We went into a fairly large hat shop. There were 4 clerks and exactly 12 hats (we counted them). They were all the same design. But, hey, full employment for 4 people.

Then there was The Hall of Economic Achievement. It was a series of fancy looking gold-gilt buildings. We went inside each one and they were all empty. Seriously. Empty. The perfect metaphor for communism.

Cuba - The whole country is in desperate need of a paint job. Havana was full of young people just lounging around in the beautiful weather doing nothing in particular. There were almost no shops of any kind. I wondered where the hell they bought stuff. Che merchandise was everywhere, but I only saw one Cuban actually wearing a Che shirt.
 
This forum has a thousand nazis for every one communist.
 
Kyle Phoenix said:
I'm more than happy to take your word on it. You're welcome to share more about what it was like if you wish. :)
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You are a communist and you have never bothered to explore what your ideology produces?
 
Helix said:
I lean to the left of the Birchers, so I've been called a commie. I like for people to have health care, so that makes me a commie.
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No, what makes you a commie is your complete intolerance of any viewpoint you don’t hold yourself.
 
Fletch said:
You are a communist and you have never bothered to explore what your ideology produces?
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Yes. I have looked, but I'm always open to listening to other people's experiences. It adds more perspective.
 
X Factor said:
No, what makes you a commie is your complete intolerance of any viewpoint you don’t hold yourself.
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What makes me a commie is that I'm not even close to a commie, but right wingers love to call people commies. Unfortunately for them, I'm still not a commie.
 
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