5-10 Years is now Entry-Level

Carjosse · Jul 7, 2019

So I have been spending the last year trying to find a job, I just graduated a month ago. It is a tough horrible process so far but one of the worst thing I keep seeing is that companies will tag their jobs as "internship" or "entry-level" then ask for many years experience, the worst one I have seen is 10 years, 4-5 years is not uncommon. Then there are internships asking for 3-5 years minimum for experience. The requirements only seem to get more outrageous, internships asking for certifications that require years of experience to qualify for, years of experience in a very specific field or niche, experience with very specialized software, etc. All of this for what sounds very often like a fairly entry-level job that doesn't require half the things they ask for or can be very easily trained provided the applicant has the proper background. But I guess they will do literally anything to not have to train people I guess, who cares about long-term right. I also keep seeing them reposted sometimes for months in a row, so clearly they are not finding these people. There was this company I really liked and saw they had a posting for exactly what I do and only asked for 0-1 years of experience, it was an entry-level type of job, so I applied then after a while I followed up with an HR person I connected with on LinkedIn and they said sorry but they are only considering people with 4-5+ years experience. It is just insanity. At this rate I will to resort to my Plan B sooner than I thought.

I think this is a lot of companies these days:

Harshaw · Jul 7, 2019

Carjosse said:
So I have been spending the last year trying to find a job, I just graduated a month ago. It is a tough horrible process so far but one of the worst thing I keep seeing is that companies will tag their jobs as "internship" or "entry-level" then ask for many years experience, the worst one I have seen is 10 years, 4-5 years is not uncommon. Then there are internships asking for 3-5 years minimum for experience. The requirements only seem to get more outrageous, internships asking for certifications that require years of experience to qualify for, years of experience in a very specific field or niche, experience with very specialized software, etc. All of this for what sounds very often like a fairly entry-level job that doesn't require half the things they ask for or can be very easily trained provided the applicant has the proper background. But I guess they will do literally anything to not have to train people I guess, who cares about long-term right. I also keep seeing them reposted sometimes for months in a row, so clearly they are not finding these people. There was this company I really liked and saw they had a posting for exactly what I do and only asked for 0-1 experience, it was an entry-level type of job, so I applied then after a while I followed up with an HR person I connected with on LinkedIn and they said sorry but they are only considering people with 4-5+ years experience. I it is just insanity.

I think this is a lot of companies these days:
View attachment 67259412

If the labor market is such that they can be that choosy, then they will be.

If the labor market significantly tightens, then their standards will drop.

RetiredUSN · Jul 7, 2019

Carjosse said:
So I have been spending the last year trying to find a job, I just graduated a month ago. It is a tough horrible process so far but one of the worst thing I keep seeing is that companies will tag their jobs as "internship" or "entry-level" then ask for many years experience, the worst one I have seen is 10 years, 4-5 years is not uncommon. Then there are internships asking for 3-5 years minimum for experience. The requirements only seem to get more outrageous, internships asking for certifications that require years of experience to qualify for, years of experience in a very specific field or niche, experience with very specialized software, etc. All of this for what sounds very often like a fairly entry-level job that doesn't require half the things they ask for or can be very easily trained provided the applicant has the proper background. But I guess they will do literally anything to not have to train people I guess, who cares about long-term right. I also keep seeing them reposted sometimes for months in a row, so clearly they are not finding these people. There was this company I really liked and saw they had a posting for exactly what I do and only asked for 0-1 years of experience, it was an entry-level type of job, so I applied then after a while I followed up with an HR person I connected with on LinkedIn and they said sorry but they are only considering people with 4-5+ years experience. I it is just insanity. At this rate I will to resort to my Plan B sooner than I thought.

I think this is a lot of companies these days:
View attachment 67259412

Welcome to reality, and the world.

Crystal · Jul 7, 2019

Carjosse said:
So I have been spending the last year trying to find a job, I just graduated a month ago. It is a tough horrible process so far but one of the worst thing I keep seeing is that companies will tag their jobs as "internship" or "entry-level" then ask for many years experience, the worst one I have seen is 10 years, 4-5 years is not uncommon. Then there are internships asking for 3-5 years minimum for experience. The requirements only seem to get more outrageous, internships asking for certifications that require years of experience to qualify for, years of experience in a very specific field or niche, experience with very specialized software, etc. All of this for what sounds very often like a fairly entry-level job that doesn't require half the things they ask for or can be very easily trained provided the applicant has the proper background. But I guess they will do literally anything to not have to train people I guess, who cares about long-term right. I also keep seeing them reposted sometimes for months in a row, so clearly they are not finding these people. There was this company I really liked and saw they had a posting for exactly what I do and only asked for 0-1 years of experience, it was an entry-level type of job, so I applied then after a while I followed up with an HR person I connected with on LinkedIn and they said sorry but they are only considering people with 4-5+ years experience. I it is just insanity. At this rate I will to resort to my Plan B sooner than I thought.

I think this is a lot of companies these days:
View attachment 67259412

Well if they can lie to the applicants then lie back. Tell you have 5 years experience.

Carjosse · Jul 7, 2019

Harshaw said:
If the labor market is such that they can be that choosy, then they will be.

If the labor market significantly tightens, then their standards will drop.

But they keep getting reposted, clearly they are not finding people. My dad's company is the same, they would rather lose some money by not hiring someone and forcing everyone else to work more than to have to spend the money and time training someone because the long-term doesn't matter. I think it is much more of a case of companies being short-sighted as they usually are. Most companies are very bad at thinking about things for the long-term.

The best job postings I have seen are from the government, they are the only ones to talk about the understanding that people need training.

Harshaw · Jul 7, 2019

Carjosse said:
But they keep getting reposted, clearly they are not finding people. My dad's company is the same, they would rather lose some money by not hiring someone and forcing everyone else to work more than to have to spend the money and time training someone because the long-term doesn't matter. I think it is much more of a case of companies being short-sighted as they usually are. Most companies are very bad at thinking about things for the long-term.

If that is the case, then their standards will change. Obviously they still feel they can be choosy for the moment.

Of course, this all assumes that you're correct, and that these positions don't actually require that kind of experience.

Carjosse · Jul 7, 2019

Harshaw said:
If that is the case, then their standards will change. Obviously they still feel they can be choosy for the moment.

Of course, this all assumes that you're correct, and that these positions don't actually require that kind of experience.

Most of them are entering things into Excel and doing basic analysis and VBA coding, you don't need 5 years of experience and a CBAP to do that. Then again in my experience older people seem to think it does.

Harshaw · Jul 7, 2019

Carjosse said:
Most of them are entering things into Excel and doing basic analysis, you don't need 5 years of experience and a CBAP to do that. Then again in my experience older people seem to think it does.

Maybe, maybe not. It's not a question of "older people." It's a question of people who actually know what the job is. You, on the outside, may well not. You may also have unrealistic expectations.

Phys251 · Jul 7, 2019

Carjosse said:
So I have been spending the last year trying to find a job, I just graduated a month ago. It is a tough horrible process so far but one of the worst thing I keep seeing is that companies will tag their jobs as "internship" or "entry-level" then ask for many years experience, the worst one I have seen is 10 years, 4-5 years is not uncommon. Then there are internships asking for 3-5 years minimum for experience. The requirements only seem to get more outrageous, internships asking for certifications that require years of experience to qualify for, years of experience in a very specific field or niche, experience with very specialized software, etc. All of this for what sounds very often like a fairly entry-level job that doesn't require half the things they ask for or can be very easily trained provided the applicant has the proper background. But I guess they will do literally anything to not have to train people I guess, who cares about long-term right. I also keep seeing them reposted sometimes for months in a row, so clearly they are not finding these people. There was this company I really liked and saw they had a posting for exactly what I do and only asked for 0-1 years of experience, it was an entry-level type of job, so I applied then after a while I followed up with an HR person I connected with on LinkedIn and they said sorry but they are only considering people with 4-5+ years experience. It is just insanity. At this rate I will to resort to my Plan B sooner than I thought.

I think this is a lot of companies these days:
View attachment 67259412

But we're at full employment. /s

Carjosse · Jul 7, 2019

Harshaw said:
Maybe, maybe not. It's not a question of "older people." It's a question of people who actually know what the job is. You, on the outside, may well not. You may also have unrealistic expectations.

I think it is, if there is anything my professors (former consultants in IT) have taught me is that most people over the age of 35 thinks that even doing advanced things in Excel is wizardry and because it took them years to implement it if at all younger people must need the same amount of time or you need special skills and certifications. I experienced it myself in my internships. In another case, I had to explain what SQL was to someone who was a manager of analytics in a consulting firm, it was like I opened up a whole new world for him.

That is what they are asking for in these jobs most of them time, advanced Excel skills and general business knowledge. If they require other things they are things that need to be trained.

Harshaw · Jul 7, 2019

Carjosse said:
I think it is, if there is anything my professors have taught me is that anyone over the age of 35 thinks that even doing advanced things in Excel is wizardry and because it took them years to implement it if at all younger people must need the same amount of time or you need special skills and certifications. I experienced it myself in my internships. In another case, I had to explain what SQL was to someone who was a manager of analytics in a consulting firm, it was like I opened up a whole new world for him.

You may be right, but you may not. Someone with no experience probably doesn't have too firm a handle on what experience is really required. And you certainly don't know what the job is until you're actually doing it.

Carjosse · Jul 7, 2019

Harshaw said:
You may be right, but you may not. Someone with no experience probably doesn't have too firm a handle on what experience is really required. And you certainly don't know what the job is until you're actually doing it.

Then clearly they need someone with a lot of experience so why are they calling or posting it under internships or entry-level on LinkedIn? That is not an internship or entry-level by any definition of the word.

Harshaw · Jul 7, 2019

Carjosse said:
Then clearly they need someone with a lot of experience so why are they calling or posting it under internships or entry-level on LinkedIn? That is not an internship or entry-level by any definition of the word.

Dunno. But you don't, either. 'Sall I'm saying.

jimbo · Jul 7, 2019

Carjosse said:
So I have been spending the last year trying to find a job, I just graduated a month ago. It is a tough horrible process so far but one of the worst thing I keep seeing is that companies will tag their jobs as "internship" or "entry-level" then ask for many years experience, the worst one I have seen is 10 years, 4-5 years is not uncommon. Then there are internships asking for 3-5 years minimum for experience. The requirements only seem to get more outrageous, internships asking for certifications that require years of experience to qualify for, years of experience in a very specific field or niche, experience with very specialized software, etc. All of this for what sounds very often like a fairly entry-level job that doesn't require half the things they ask for or can be very easily trained provided the applicant has the proper background. But I guess they will do literally anything to not have to train people I guess, who cares about long-term right. I also keep seeing them reposted sometimes for months in a row, so clearly they are not finding these people. There was this company I really liked and saw they had a posting for exactly what I do and only asked for 0-1 years of experience, it was an entry-level type of job, so I applied then after a while I followed up with an HR person I connected with on LinkedIn and they said sorry but they are only considering people with 4-5+ years experience. It is just insanity. At this rate I will to resort to my Plan B sooner than I thought.

I think this is a lot of companies these days:
View attachment 67259412

My grandson graduated two years as a field engineer and had a job before graduation starting at 55K/year. He had to beg for two weeks off before starting.

His sister graduated this year and turned down numerous offers in favor of a masters as a PA. The school she applied for (Shenandoah)is proud of the fact that 100% of their graduates are offered jobs at an average of $92K. I didn't believe it either. I looked it up?

So the question is what did they do right that you did wrong? You state you have no experience. grandson worked all summers and vacation at Honeywell, so effectively he had 2-3 years experience going in. Grand daughter has worked hospitals all summers and during high school.

The fields they chose are in demand. There are always fields in demand and some currently out of favor.

Here's another hint. The market is seldom wrong. If it is it will immediately adjust. If it needs 10 people and 100 apply, the market picks and chooses. If you applied for a job for which you felt you were completely qualified and the job went unfilled, possibly you weren't. If it were me I would look in the mirror.

Felis Leo · Jul 7, 2019

Phys251 said:
But we're at full employment. /s

Well, Carjosse is in Canada, not the United States. I do not know what their employment figures are at. It sounds like the labor market is oversaturated with workers and there are too few jobs to go around so employers can, as Harshaw put it, afford to be choosy.

Phys251 · Jul 7, 2019

Felis Leo said:
Well, Carjosse is in Canada, not the United States. I do not know what their employment figures are at. It sounds like the labor market is oversaturated with workers and there are too few jobs to go around so employers can, as Harshaw put it, afford to be choosy.

Fair point. I do wish that employers would not put prospective employees in the "you need experience for our kind of jobs, and you need our kind of jobs for experience" trap. Very difficult for people to escape.

rocket88 · Jul 7, 2019

Harshaw said:
If the labor market is such that they can be that choosy, then they will be.

If the labor market significantly tightens, then their standards will drop.

This very true. Doesn't say much for Trump's economy if the market is still that tight.

Felis Leo · Jul 7, 2019

Phys251 said:
Fair point. I do wish that employers would not put prospective employees in the "you need experience for our kind of jobs, and you need our kind of jobs for experience" trap. Very difficult for people to escape.

Agreed. Except perhaps for ultra-specialized or higher-level positions, I think it is ridiculous, because most people learn how to do their job properly literally on the job.

Carjosse · Jul 7, 2019

Felis Leo said:
Well, Carjosse is in Canada, not the United States. I do not know what their employment figures are at. It sounds like the labor market is oversaturated with workers and there are too few jobs to go around so employers can, as Harshaw put it, afford to be choosy.

Quebec has 5.2% unemployment, nationally 5.5% with 5% being considered full employment in Canada due to differences in how we measure unemployment.

maxparrish · Jul 7, 2019

Carjosse said:
But they keep getting reposted, clearly they are not finding people. My dad's company is the same, they would rather lose some money by not hiring someone and forcing everyone else to work more than to have to spend the money and time training someone because the long-term doesn't matter. I think it is much more of a case of companies being short-sighted as they usually are. Most companies are very bad at thinking about things for the long-term.

The best job postings I have seen are from the government, they are the only ones to talk about the understanding that people need training.

Businesses respond to the market and regulations on the market. Factors that work against you for finding employment are:

- H1B and other skilled foreign labor. Businesses have worked hard to convince politicians that the US needs technical people that are cheaper and more plentiful, hence the labor market is not as tight as it could be.

- Fixed Cost. Businesses know that the government requires medical insurance, workers comp insurance, SSI deductions paid by the employer, maternity leave benefits, etc. Most HR planners know that a 40 percent cost of employment OVER wages is typical. Hence, they want to make sure you are worth it.

- Legal Cost. Businesses know that in many states labor law and under equal employment law once you hire someone you may be stuck with them for sometime. To avoid fines or court battles, businesses are far more picky. Last thing a business wants is a troublemaker.

Finally, you may be looking in the wrong market, or chose the wrong skill set.

jimbo · Jul 7, 2019

Crystal said:
Well if they can lie to the applicants then lie back. Tell you have 5 years experience.

You think that doesn't get checked?

That's a 30 second phone call by a secretary.

Carjosse · Jul 7, 2019

jimbo said:
My grandson graduated two years as a field engineer and had a job before graduation starting at 55K/year. He had to beg for two weeks off before starting.

His sister graduated this year and turned down numerous offers in favor of a masters as a PA. The school she applied for (Shenandoah)is proud of the fact that 100% of their graduates are offered jobs at an average of $92K. I didn't believe it either. I looked it up?

So the question is what did they do right that you did wrong? You state you have no experience. grandson worked all summers and vacation at Honeywell, so effectively he had 2-3 years experience going in. Grand daughter has worked hospitals all summers and during high school.

The fields they chose are in demand. There are always fields in demand and some currently out of favor.

Here's another hint. The market is seldom wrong. If it is it will immediately adjust. If it needs 10 people and 100 apply, the market picks and chooses. If you applied for a job for which you felt you were completely qualified and the job went unfilled, possibly you weren't. If it were me I would look in the mirror.

I chose a field that is also in high demand but seemingly only at higher levels, it is a field that requires a lot of on-the-job training to become successful. There are thousands of jobs in Toronto and Montreal for what I do just on LinkedIn alone but only if you have 5+ years of experience. I have experience, I have 8 months of internships because that is all I could get as I wanted to eventually graduate and finding internships in my field is hard as like I said you need a lot of training to become good and do it well. My major didn't even exist until 5 years ago due to new market demand, they just don't want to pay to develop it.

No company wants to pay for training and invest in new people, as to become successful at what I do you have to do that, corporate culture has turned completely against it. That is part of it and because the economy is "good" companies find it much easier to just headhunt people with experience with the promise of a bit better pay. They want people with my skills but are not willing to invest in developing them further into specifically what they need, they would much rather just absorb the loss of no hires than invest in new employees. Not everyone can be a nurse or an engineer.

Felis Leo · Jul 7, 2019

Carjosse said:
Quebec has 5.2% unemployment, nationally 5.5% with 5% being considered full employment in Canada due to differences in how we measure unemployment.

Then the question would be what your field of specialty is, because if 5.2% is an average across all field, that can easily mean 1% unemployment in a particular field such as healthcare, 5% in general unskilled labor, while having 8% to 9% in journalism, for example. Even with "full employment" some areas of the job market may lag far behind others. Looking for work in a job market that is at "full employment" is sadly no guarantee of finding that work. It was the same for law school graduates back when I graduated in 2011. Law was considered a recession-proof part of the job market. And while people certainly needed lawyers, that didn't necessarily mean law firms were hiring. Thankfully I had planned from the very beginning to work at my family's small town practice, because it may have taken me years to find a good job if I had simply put my resume out.

Carjosse · Jul 7, 2019

Felis Leo said:
Then the question would be what your field of specialty is, because if 5.2% is an average across all field, that can easily mean 1% unemployment in a particular field such as healthcare, 5% in general unskilled labor, while having 8% to 9% in journalism, for example. Even with "full employment" some areas of the job market may lag far behind others. Looking for work in a job market that is at "full employment" is sadly no guarantee of finding that work. It was the same for law school graduates back when I graduated in 2011. Law was considered a recession-proof part of the job market. And while people certainly needed lawyers, that didn't necessarily mean law firms were hiring. Thankfully I had planned from the very beginning to work at my family's small town practice, because it may have taken me years to find a good job if I had simply put my resume out.

There is massive skills gap of associate level people, those with 3-10 years in what I do as to be good in my field you need a lot of training and experience. But companies do not seem to realize that in order to have mid-level people you need to train up lower-level people first. Also see post above yours.

Most of the people from my major I know who found jobs got them through family contacts, sadly that is not an option for me.

rocket88 · Jul 7, 2019

Felis Leo said:
Well, Carjosse is in Canada, not the United States. I do not know what their employment figures are at. It sounds like the labor market is oversaturated with workers and there are too few jobs to go around so employers can, as Harshaw put it, afford to be choosy.

Oh right. Didn't take that into account.

5-10 Years is now Entry-Level

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