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Your car's engine may likely be destroyed due to stupid engineering!

ModerationNow! said:
Although GM was planning on an OHC v8 to be used in the Corvette starting in 2018, I don't think they pulled the trigger on that plan yet. I'm also not aware of any Chrysler Corp overhead cam v8, unless it was borrowed from one of their 6-15 different corporate overlord car companies from recent years.... Lol
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Gm used the ls motor designed to be ohc, I think it was the ls7 or ls something, not widely used but they did make them, chrysler has the 4.7 v8 which is sohc and was a chrysler la block design merged with a mercedes design, extremely good if oil changes are done on time, but put the wrong oil in them or skip oil changes and they go south fast.
 
beerftw said:
But in terms of building an engine I can build up a chrysler 2 bolt main small block to 500 hp and so long as the rpm's were not set in the high revving range even use the cast crank heads and top end if they solid lifters like the 273.
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I'll still take the W2 engine, magnificent piece of kit.
But sure the old skat pak 273's were amazing little balls of anger.

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MoPar or NoCar. :fueltofir
 
beerftw said:
Gm used the ls motor designed to be ohc, I think it was the ls7 or ls something, not widely used but they did make them, chrysler has the 4.7 v8 which is sohc and was a chrysler la block design merged with a mercedes design, extremely good if oil changes are done on time, but put the wrong oil in them or skip oil changes and they go south fast.
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People who don't change their oil deserve whatever they get.
I grew tired of scraping bituminous coal out of cylinder heads the very first time I encountered such a horror. Never again.
 
beerftw said:
Gm used the ls motor designed to be ohc, I think it was the ls7 or ls something, not widely used but they did make them, chrysler has the 4.7 v8 which is sohc and was a chrysler la block design merged with a mercedes design, extremely good if oil changes are done on time, but put the wrong oil in them or skip oil changes and they go south fast.
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The 1990 zr1 had a 32 valve dohc 5.7 L engine designed by lotus. The first and so far only Dohc v8 in a factory corvette.

I expect the new caddy 4.2 L will be used in the mid engine corvette 1 or 2 years after the initial
 
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ModerationNow! said:
What exactly does, "you're toast" mean? Are you going to have your benevolent government come and accuse every non-progressive as Nazis, and throw us all in prison? Sounds like you sure are peaceful and democratic! You literally are exactly what you are complaining about! YOU are an authoritarian! Listen to yourself! YOU have drunk the Kool Aid, and YOU are making threats against the liberty of people, simply because they don't think like you! Oh and btw, I wouldn't support Israel if I was the raging Nazi that you are trying to make me out to be! Also, I don't go to church on sundays, because I AM NOT a practicing religious person, so there goes your theories!

Actually you are 100% wrong. I began using the term "leftist" to describe people from "the left" side of politics a long time ago. Look back at my older posts. I use that term, because as Hillary pointed out way back in 2008 when she was asked "do you consider yourself a liberall", she said "no. the term liberal doesn't accurately describe our movement now, so we use the term progressive", She was correct that many 'progressives' have walked away from the most important aspects that define the term "liberal". But I also don't particularly agree with their use of the term "progressive", because in reality, what many of them are trying to bring about is a socialist revolution. I don't see anything 'progressive' about an idea that's been deceptively hoisted on societies for so long, that most people who first espoused it, were still 60+ years away from ever owning their first automobile!

As far as your complaint about conservatives referring to 'progressives' as leftists, I don't know where to start. Its like a guy with a mosquito bite complaining about it, while the guy beside him has a 6" knife sticking out of his chest! Believe me, being occasionally called a leftist on maybe 1 tv channel and some AM radio channels, is a helluva lot better and less painful than routinely being arbitrarily labeled "racist", "Nazi", Fascist", "bigot", "homophobe" on a bunch of tv channels, newspapers, online media sites etc. There's no comparison!
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Oh FFS. Give it a rest. This is not about your political ideology. It's about cars, dammit! Get with the program!!
 
ModerationNow! said:
Your vehicle probably has a timing belt. The problem is that belts break, they stretch, and some even fail due to oil or coolant speeding up the process of degradation, which causes the belt's teeth to be sheared off by the crankshaft pulley. That leads to the same problem with broken belts, which is your engine's valve/piston synchronization is suddenly knocked out of timing. Most car's made in the past 35-40 years have timing belts, and worse yet, many engines are designed in a way that they CANNOT tolerate or survive a broken timing belt in most cases. That's because the designers designed these engines in a way where the valves will hit the pistons if the timing is knocked out of sequence. These engines are universally referred to by mechanics as "interference engines". If your timing belt fails, the timing is instantly knocked out, and your engine rpm will suddenly spike up for a second, then drop to nothing as the engine shuts off. If it's an interference engine, your pistons will SLAM into your valves at thousands of rpms, destroying the engine! That will look like this: View attachment 67242273

A better idea is the timing chain, which usually consists of a double chain running on sprockets. Here:

Older cars, and modern vehicles with more powerful, heavy duty engines have a superior chain drive. I was looking at a video recently, of an old Ford pickup from the late 60s. It wasn't a fancy restoration or a Hot Rod. In fact, it didn't even have a V8 engine. It still relied on its original, 50 year old 300 cubic inch(5 liter) inline 6 cylinder. I knew a few people who owned Fords with that engine, but I just learned that engine was designed with a gear drive, which is the toughest, most reliable system of valve timing, although they are rare.Here: View attachment 67242272
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The bad engineering wasn't the belt.

The bad engineering was with the cylinder head not having recessed valve ports.

Many racers have used models of cars/engines with timing belts in mini stock racing for years without engine damage like you have pictured here.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The 1990 zr1 had a 32 valve dohc 5.7 L engine designed by lotus. The first and so far only Dohc v8 in a factory corvette.

I expect the new caddy 4.2 L will be used in the mid engine corvette 1 or 2 years after the initial
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I think you are right, I googled it and the dohc was an lt mod not an ls mod, the ls mod dohc was made and used in racing tests but never released into a production vehicle while the lt style was.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Where have you been?
Ninety percent of restomods are using GM LS series engines and GM 700R4 four speed auto transmissions.
You cannot beat an LS series V8 for simplicity or power to weight, or durability. Dollar for dollar and pound for pound it is one of the best V8 bargains on the market, and they are only carbureted if you want them to be.



The old carbureted Gen I and Gen II small blocks started to go away in 1995 and by 2003 the LS was dominating nearly every aspect of GM's high performance stable.
The old GM THM 350 and 400 3 speed slushbox is old roadkill, long since traded for their computer controlled gearboxes.
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The TH350 and TH400 is still used in LOTS of restomods and street rods. Maybe not top dollar ones. The problem with the 350 Chevy is it is generic. If the motor is irrelevant, then it is. If creativity matters, it is the wrong motor for a V8 choice UNLESS that is a major bump up like a 4 to 8 cylinder.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The 1990 zr1 had a 32 valve dohc 5.7 L engine designed by lotus. The first and so far only Dohc v8 in a factory corvette.

I expect the new caddy 4.2 L will be used in the mid engine corvette 1 or 2 years after the initial
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Personally, if a somewhat open exhaust, I don't like how 32 valve V8s sound. Had some Porsche 928s. The 32 valve motor made more power, but the 16 value motor, though only a 4.5 sounded like a full race hemi coming down the road with a performance exhaust. The 32 valve motor sounded small and weak.
 
joko104 said:
Personally, if a somewhat open exhaust, I don't like how 32 valve V8s sound. Had some Porsche 928s. The 32 valve motor made more power, but the 16 value motor, though only a 4.5 sounded like a full race hemi coming down the road with a performance exhaust. The 32 valve motor sounded small and weak.
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A Ferrari v8 sounds incredible. The new coyote engine in the Mustang sounds great
 
joko104 said:
The TH350 and TH400 is still used in LOTS of restomods and street rods. Maybe not top dollar ones. The problem with the 350 Chevy is it is generic. If the motor is irrelevant, then it is. If creativity matters, it is the wrong motor for a V8 choice UNLESS that is a major bump up like a 4 to 8 cylinder.
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But a lot of people have opted for the LS engine and GM 700R4 package, that's all I am saying.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
But a lot of people have opted for the LS engine and GM 700R4 package, that's all I am saying.
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The problem with the ls motor is that it is the new 350, everyone has one. The ls is leaps and bounds over the old 350 tech, but so overused that everyone has one. The 700r4 package do not get me started on that, I work on transmissions for a living, and so many retards mess with the 700r4, they are good transmissions when built right, but most people touching them just try to stuff more clutches on the 3-4 and put a corvette servo in it, and have no idea about hydraulic integrity why their 3-4 clutches keep burning up and why lockup needs a power wire to work(save some of the older one 86 and older).

To get the 700r4 to work good you need teflon rings for the input drum which requires a resizer, the reverse drum can use scarf cut rings just fine. The valve body needs to be recalibrated properly and field stripped and cleaned, for recalibration b&m kits really do nothing but make it shift hard, they need system kits like the transgo kit or an experienced builder can make his own recalibrations. Oh and this is counting 87 and later ones, 86 and earlier they needed a mountain of updates, pump holes enlarged, sprag changed to the wide sprag, a number 7 apply piston and return spring to use 4l60e bonded pistons, update to the 30 spline input drum with the larger feed hole and the bleed orifice, etc etc.
 
beerftw said:
The problem with the ls motor is that it is the new 350, everyone has one. The ls is leaps and bounds over the old 350 tech, but so overused that everyone has one. The 700r4 package do not get me started on that, I work on transmissions for a living, and so many retards mess with the 700r4, they are good transmissions when built right, but most people touching them just try to stuff more clutches on the 3-4 and put a corvette servo in it, and have no idea about hydraulic integrity why their 3-4 clutches keep burning up and why lockup needs a power wire to work(save some of the older one 86 and older).

To get the 700r4 to work good you need teflon rings for the input drum which requires a resizer, the reverse drum can use scarf cut rings just fine. The valve body needs to be recalibrated properly and field stripped and cleaned, for recalibration b&m kits really do nothing but make it shift hard, they need system kits like the transgo kit or an experienced builder can make his own recalibrations. Oh and this is counting 87 and later ones, 86 and earlier they needed a mountain of updates, pump holes enlarged, sprag changed to the wide sprag, a number 7 apply piston and return spring to use 4l60e bonded pistons, update to the 30 spline input drum with the larger feed hole and the bleed orifice, etc etc.
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---You're right, but you're clearly talking about power applications beyond the scope of a typical, as you're saying, 700R4 slushbox.
You and I both know that once you cross over in that kind of power, there is yet another solution:

TREMEC

Regarding your statement that "the ls motor is the new 350, everyone has one." all I can say is, you clearly favor esoteric setups that do not utilize everyday available kit.
There is nothing wrong with thinking the way that you do however you will certainly acknowledge that one needs to have the pocketbook to go that route.
Would I prefer a built 413 Max Wedge with a cross ram intake with dual-quads over an LS series?
Sure, I'd much prefer it, for the same reasons you would prefer an equally rare and esoteric eyeball popping piece of kit.



Get it built right and you'll be presented with an invoice for 45 thousand bucks!
For that reason, I understand, accept and even celebrate the LS series engines, because even a very nice LS series with a couple of turbos will only set you back about 25 grand...much less if you can just find a decent running engine yourself secondhand.

Don't poo-poo the LS too much, it keeps a lot of people into hot rodding who otherwise couldn't and dollar for dollar and pound for pound it's a damn good bargain.

PS: Have you ever heard of the "Sloppy Mechanics" Facebook group?
 
RetiredUSN said:
The bad engineering wasn't the belt.

The bad engineering was with the cylinder head not having recessed valve ports.

Many racers have used models of cars/engines with timing belts in mini stock racing for years without engine damage like you have pictured here.
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Yeah, but race cars don't drive back and forth to work, 4 seasons a year, through rain, snow, shine, for 100,000+ miles either. So comparing a race car that may go a few hundred miles on 1 sunny day, before it's engine is rebuilt, with a new belt, doesn't really equate to a passenger car experience. Passenger cars would be better off with proper valve/piston clearance, even when out of timing, AND a chain drive IMO.
 
beerftw said:
The problem with the ls motor is that it is the new 350, everyone has one. The ls is leaps and bounds over the old 350 tech, but so overused that everyone has one. The 700r4 package do not get me started on that, I work on transmissions for a living, and so many retards mess with the 700r4, they are good transmissions when built right, but most people touching them just try to stuff more clutches on the 3-4 and put a corvette servo in it, and have no idea about hydraulic integrity why their 3-4 clutches keep burning up and why lockup needs a power wire to work(save some of the older one 86 and older).

To get the 700r4 to work good you need teflon rings for the input drum which requires a resizer, the reverse drum can use scarf cut rings just fine. The valve body needs to be recalibrated properly and field stripped and cleaned, for recalibration b&m kits really do nothing but make it shift hard, they need system kits like the transgo kit or an experienced builder can make his own recalibrations. Oh and this is counting 87 and later ones, 86 and earlier they needed a mountain of updates, pump holes enlarged, sprag changed to the wide sprag, a number 7 apply piston and return spring to use 4l60e bonded pistons, update to the 30 spline input drum with the larger feed hole and the bleed orifice, etc etc.
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Maybe they should just save up some $$ and buy a Lenco or Tremec(or a toploader, Muncie or Borg Warner for old school 4 speed action).
 
ModerationNow! said:
Yeah, but race cars don't drive back and forth to work, 4 seasons a year, through rain, snow, shine, for 100,000+ miles either. So comparing a race car that may go a few hundred miles on 1 sunny day, before it's engine is rebuilt, with a new belt, doesn't really equate to a passenger car experience. Passenger cars would be better off with proper valve/piston clearance, even when out of timing, AND a chain drive IMO.
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If the valves are recessed, then there isn't a issue to begin with....right?

Belts are just as good as chains and vice versa.
 
ModerationNow! said:
Maybe they should just save up some $$ and buy a Lenco or Tremec(or a toploader, Muncie or Borg Warner for old school 4 speed action).
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The 700 is perfectly fine when built properly and updated to adress mechanichal and hydraulic flaws, and cheaper than any toploader manual unless the vehicle naturally came with one. Manual transmissions require major fabrication to work, while a 700 in most gm cars requires a driveshaft redone and installing a throttle cable to the transmission plus power for lockup and lockup control or hydraulic override. A standard requires the entire linkage either hydraulic cable or mechanical, the floor fabricated for the shifter ad holes cut into the floorboard for a clutch pedal, basically if it did not come with a standard to begin with, you pretty much need a donor vehicle to make it work while an automatic like a 700 can be done fairly easily even on a vehicle originally with an standard..
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
---You're right, but you're clearly talking about power applications beyond the scope of a typical, as you're saying, 700R4 slushbox.
You and I both know that once you cross over in that kind of power, there is yet another solution:

TREMEC

Regarding your statement that "the ls motor is the new 350, everyone has one." all I can say is, you clearly favor esoteric setups that do not utilize everyday available kit.
There is nothing wrong with thinking the way that you do however you will certainly acknowledge that one needs to have the pocketbook to go that route.
Would I prefer a built 413 Max Wedge with a cross ram intake with dual-quads over an LS series?
Sure, I'd much prefer it, for the same reasons you would prefer an equally rare and esoteric eyeball popping piece of kit.



Get it built right and you'll be presented with an invoice for 45 thousand bucks!
For that reason, I understand, accept and even celebrate the LS series engines, because even a very nice LS series with a couple of turbos will only set you back about 25 grand...much less if you can just find a decent running engine yourself secondhand.

Don't poo-poo the LS too much, it keeps a lot of people into hot rodding who otherwise couldn't and dollar for dollar and pound for pound it's a damn good bargain.

PS: Have you ever heard of the "Sloppy Mechanics" Facebook group?
Click to expand...


The original 700 was beyond a slushbox, they were aweful, meaning many people had the transmission replaced multiple times before their warranty ran out, they made numerous changes through the years but the 87 after were the gold standard, the 86 earlier could be made just as reliable but required many changes.
 
RetiredUSN said:
If the valves are recessed, then there isn't a issue to begin with....right?

Belts are just as good as chains and vice versa.
Click to expand...

Although the valve-piston interference IS the biggest issue, there are still other issues that make timing belts inferior and potentially problematic. Regardless of the fact that a broken or tooth-stripped belt may not cause the engine to be badly damaged, its still a HUGE pain in the a$$ to have to replace a failed timing belt! It's typically expensive and time consuming. Also belts are more likely to stretch and potentially throw crank-cam timing slightly off as well. The former issue isn't really a risk with a decent double timing chain, and the latter is much reduced.
 
beerftw said:
The 700 is perfectly fine when built properly and updated to adress mechanichal and hydraulic flaws, and cheaper than any toploader manual unless the vehicle naturally came with one. Manual transmissions require major fabrication to work, while a 700 in most gm cars requires a driveshaft redone and installing a throttle cable to the transmission plus power for lockup and lockup control or hydraulic override. A standard requires the entire linkage either hydraulic cable or mechanical, the floor fabricated for the shifter ad holes cut into the floorboard for a clutch pedal, basically if it did not come with a standard to begin with, you pretty much need a donor vehicle to make it work while an automatic like a 700 can be done fairly easily even on a vehicle originally with an standard..
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Good points. I've seen at least one person switch from a 3spd manual to a 3spd column shifted automatic, but I don't recall anyone I knew ever swapping an auto for a manual. Usually they just switch to another auto of the same type, or a high performance version of the same basic trans. Obviously a LOT of people have switched from standard 3 speed autos to powerglides(2 speed auto), but those were cars used for drag racing applications.

I have a soft spot for powerglides, due to having one in my old 66 Chevy C-10 stepside I owned in the 90s.
 
ModerationNow! said:
Although the valve-piston interference IS the biggest issue, there are still other issues that make timing belts inferior and potentially problematic. Regardless of the fact that a broken or tooth-stripped belt may not cause the engine to be badly damaged, its still a HUGE pain in the a$$ to have to replace a failed timing belt! It's typically expensive and time consuming. Also belts are more likely to stretch and potentially throw crank-cam timing slightly off as well. The former issue isn't really a risk with a decent double timing chain, and the latter is much reduced.
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Timing chains are expensive to change as well, and they also have considerable slack over time.
 
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