Which prison is better for society?

Rexedgar said:

Isn't Trump wondering why we aren't assimilating more Norweigans?

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I don't think so, I believe the whole ****hole controversy settled that for anyone who was uninformed.

truthatallcost said:

There are multiple factors for that too, including the shameful privatization of prisons and juvenile detention facilities, which turned incarceration into a big business.

My personal opinion is that the USA is never going to function like a small, quaint European nation such as Norway.

Population size isn't the sole factor of course, just look at Japan - they have many times more people than Norway, with a lower incarceration rate than Norway. And their prisons are very harsh and disciplinary in nature. Basically, the culture of Japan doesn't glorify criminality as we've always done here in the USA. They have their own organized crime in Japan, but nothing like we have over here.

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They don't have a mafia "Don" running their show?

truthatallcost said:

There are multiple factors for that too, including the shameful privatization of prisons and juvenile detention facilities, which turned incarceration into a big business.

My personal opinion is that the USA is never going to function like a small, quaint European nation such as Norway.

Population size isn't the sole factor of course, just look at Japan - they have many times more people than Norway, with a lower incarceration rate than Norway. And their prisons are very harsh and disciplinary in nature. Basically, the culture of Japan doesn't glorify criminality as we've always done here in the USA. They have their own organized crime in Japan, but nothing like we have over here.

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I think you might be giving up too easily, though...first, though, I appreciate the honest analysis, even if I think you're maybe missing another possibility. If you consider the statistics from the article I posted in #21, it would seem that a significant number of your citizens go to jail, for a myriad of reasons, some fair, some not so fair, and a good number a result of pretty specific societal decisions America has made. When you also take into consideration the recidivism rate, it makes sense that this large segment of your population would glorify this behaviour, and have enough people around them to normalize that. I think you nailed it on the head when you called it a cultural thing. It's not all that different up here, if on a smaller scale.

But, if "all" it is is a cultural thing, then perhaps starting with the prison system, where this cultural tendency to glorify crime would be at its most potent, would allow you to see a change in that mentality, so that other initiatives could take root. There will still be assholes, I'm not suggesting that you click your fingers and the change happens overnight...but maybe with a long term strategy to actually reduce crime by working at the cultural level, and actually prioritize rehabilitation, you could get to the point where you're not having to incarcerate such a large percentage of your population.

This is gonna feel like a jab, but I'm not trying to play partisan, I just know you generally identify as conservative so I figure you're a good one to ask. Conservatives generally prefer enablement over entitlement, or welfare. Given that the American prison system is one of the largest welfare programs you have, where the entire cost of maintaining these prisoners falls on the shoulders of the taxpayer, why wouldn't conservatives be interested in the methods being used in Norway as a means to enable these citizens to pay for their own room and board? I get wanting to be protected from dangerous criminals, but isn't this at least worth looking into, and giving a moment's thought to how to adapt this model to fit the current realities in the states?

Prison inmate in the US




Prison inmate in Norway




'Nuff said...

Oh dear.

OlNate said:

I agree, there needs to be different types of prisons, depending on what you are trying to accomplish. The only thing that makes me recoil at the tent prison system is the bordering on "cruel and unusual". I think you guys can do better, but I get that this is an outlier, and a bit of a gimmick, insomuch as I don't think anyone is actually for making "tent prisons" a "standard" approach to incarceration.

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I dunno...I've lived in pretty horrible tent conditions for significant portions of time on my deployments and I didn't even commit any crimes. It was just how life was so for prisoners to complain about it I don't have a lot of sympathy, though I'll agree it's not ideal.

The tricky part, of course, is what to do with all those for-profit prisons. Sadly, even if it were possible to do better in the states, there's so much invested in the current infrastructure, and so much to gain financially from it, that I think it would be a tough row to hoe to get anything to change. Fair?

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I'm for closing down all the for-profit prisons, no exceptions. And, yes, it will be tough to change but I'm hoping that I can sway more righties by supporting such things because I'm a righty myself.

Fishking said:

I dunno...I've lived in pretty horrible tent conditions for significant portions of time on my deployments and I didn't even commit any crimes. It was just how life was so for prisoners to complain about it I don't have a lot of sympathy, though I'll agree it's not ideal.



I'm for closing down all the for-profit prisons, no exceptions. And, yes, it will be tough to change but I'm hoping that I can sway more righties by supporting such things because I'm a righty myself.

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Fair nuff for part 1, can't really argue with that, other than to say that if I had my fat Canadian ass hauled off to tent jail in Texas at the moment, or a deployment in whatever hot as **** country you served in, the conditions would probably kill me before the first awkward shower moment...hehe... Not sure every criminal can live up to the same physical standards as American soldiers.

As for part two, ****in A, bud, uh, I mean, ya filthy righty...

OlNate said:

Fair nuff for part 1, can't really argue with that, other than to say that if I had my fat Canadian ass hauled off to tent jail in Texas at the moment, or a deployment in whatever hot as **** country you served in, the conditions would probably kill me before the first awkward shower moment...hehe... Not sure every criminal can live up to the same physical standards as American soldiers.

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Nah...you'd be alright. You'd be amazed at what you can handle once you're in it. Hell, I had some of you Canadian peeps fly me around in a C-130 in Afghanistan. It sucked though. It was winter and foggy so we circled Bagram for 3 hrs before we went back to Kandahar. 5 hrs total on canvas seats was not good for keeping circulation in your butt and ya'll had that heat cranked up.

As for part two, ****in A, bud, uh, I mean, ya filthy righty...

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Yeah...there is actually a fairly long list of things that I'd be considered lefty for but these days it doesn't matter. I'm considered very far-right now for some reason.

Jail and prison are meant be a detterent, it should not be pleasant. Food, clothing, medical and security are the only thing an inmate deserves, and some access to job training and education, is very helpful.

Fishking said:

Nah...you'd be alright. You'd be amazed at what you can handle once you're in it. Hell, I had some of you Canadian peeps fly me around in a C-130 in Afghanistan. It sucked though. It was winter and foggy so we circled Bagram for 3 hrs before we went back to Kandahar. 5 hrs total on canvas seats was not good for keeping circulation in your butt and ya'll had that heat cranked up.



Yeah...there is actually a fairly long list of things that I'd be considered lefty for but these days it doesn't matter. I'm considered very far-right now for some reason.

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Haha....right on. I don't live to far away from Trenton, Ontario, which is where those C-130's deploy from. They've got a pretty good air museum there, I take my 5 year old every year, he loves it. It's a big military town. A lot of moustaches in the Canadian Air Forces...hehe

As for the far-right thing...yeah, it's hard to be chill anymore. It's probably the same reason I get accused of being far left...we just tend to lose our **** from time to time in political debates... haha Always gotta be one or the other, eh?

Slingshot Bob said:

Jail and prison are meant be a detterent, it should not be pleasant. Food, clothing, medical and security are the only thing an inmate deserves, and some access to job training and education, is very helpful.

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Cuz, I mean, that's working so well, right Bob? hehe... Just playing, bud...sorta...

OlNate said:

Cuz, I mean, that's working so well, right Bob? hehe... Just playing, bud...sorta...

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Sorta, even given the less than stellar accommodations, some people are still "institutionalized" and would rather live in prison. Everything is done for you, laundry, cooking, etc.

I am a lead by example guy so I take Norway.

truthatallcost said:

Comparing American society to Norwegian society is like comparing apples to oranges. Norway doesn't have millions of hardened criminals, like the US does. What works for them wouldn't work for us.

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A lot people become hardened criminals in prison not on the outside.

Moot said:

A lot people become hardened criminals in prison not on the outside.

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Taking our sadism out for a walk at the prisons being one of our dumber ideas of course...

Slingshot Bob said:

Sorta, even given the less than stellar accommodations, some people are still "institutionalized" and would rather live in prison. Everything is done for you, laundry, cooking, etc.

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Right...it's the biggest welfare program you have...and given the recidivism rate, I'd say it's appreciated. But does it fix your problem? Not sure how, given results vs. results, you can think so...

Fishking said:

I dunno...I've lived in pretty horrible tent conditions for significant portions of time on my deployments and I didn't even commit any crimes. It was just how life was so for prisoners to complain about it I don't have a lot of sympathy, though I'll agree it's not ideal.



I'm for closing down all the for-profit prisons, no exceptions. And, yes, it will be tough to change but I'm hoping that I can sway more righties by supporting such things because I'm a righty myself.

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Are you aware of the conditions in Arpaio's tent prisons? I seriously doubt that you were put into overcrowded tents in 100 degree plus temperatures with no shade and fed mouldy food and restricted access to sanitary facilities.

OlNate said:

Right...it's the biggest welfare program you have...and given the recidivism rate, I'd say it's appreciated. But does it fix your problem? Not sure how, given results vs. results, you can think so...

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Better than coddling them in fancy digs! Many Fl prisons are open bay dorms, much cheaper than cells. Prison should not be a comfortable place, kinda the point!

Slingshot Bob said:

Better than coddling them in fancy digs! Many Fl prisons are open bay dorms, much cheaper than cells. Prison should not be a comfortable place, kinda the point!

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Why is retribution more important to you than rehabilitation? I thought you conservatives were the fiscally responsible ones... Why would you not look into alternatives when what you're doing is demonstrably under performing, in terms of results? The sooner you rehabilitate, the sooner you stop footing the bill. By standing by a system that focuses only on punishment and has outrageously high rates of recidivism as it's primary result, you're essentially ensuring that when you "make em pay!", you're paying just as much. Looking into alternative incarceration models, when yours is so broken, is as much about helping you as it is about providing "coddling them in fancy digs"... What could that money buy if it wasn't being spent on keeping a huge chunk of your population under government care?

Aristaeus said:

Are you aware of the conditions in Arpaio's tent prisons? I seriously doubt that you were put into overcrowded tents in 100 degree plus temperatures with no shade and fed mouldy food and restricted access to sanitary facilities.

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Nah...I only had about 60+ dudes jammed all in one tent with temps reaching 115+. You're right...I dunno about that life.

Fishking said:

Nah...I only had about 60+ dudes jammed all in one tent with temps reaching 115+. You're right...I dunno about that life.

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I made an error in my original post; I said 100 degree plus, when I meant to say 120 degree plus.

If you had to suffer 120 degree plus temperatures all day without access to any shade, limited sanitary facilities, fed mouldy and rotten food, and were chained to a bed and ignored as you slowly died of a diabetic coma, then you have my sympathies.

gulfman said:

Prison is not supposed to be a country club.The more primitive the better.

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more reasons conservatives shouldn't run things.

Fishking said:

Depends on what you're going for. If the goal is to keep people put away, on the cheap, that shouldn't be reintegrated into society then the tent prison. If your goal is to imprison people who will eventually come back out, then Norway's prison, but you'd have to make more changes than just the prison to get the overall benefits (e.g. getting rid of felony statuses).

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We need somehow work a jobs focused reintegration for those that come out so that they don't have to go back to crime to be able to afford to live. Due to people not wanting to hire them.

truthatallcost said:

Various differences in culture and population. But a simpler answer; the population size of the USA is 66x the size of Norway's population.

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What does that have to do with anything? The US has 30x the land mass for that larger population too.

Mycroft said:

Prison inmate in the US

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Prison inmate in Norway

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'Nuff said...

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How can it be "nuff said" when you didn't say anything? What are you saying? Grow your testicles and say it.