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Waco

I did not watch it for a personal reason.
A friend of mine just happened to be there on April 19th, 1993 when the SHTF.
He brought back a brass shell casing from some vehicle that was firing into the compound he was near.
They were herding everyone away when the firing started and he picked up the casing as he was shuffled away.
When i saw it, my mouth dropped. it was a .50 caliber machine gun round brass shell casing.
Our government was firing full auto .50 caliber rounds into a wooden building knowing full well there were many children inside.
I have yet to see this very real fact mentioned in any books, movies, or other sources.

When i was in the Navy and fired one of those they said in our training it was designed to penetrate 3 inches of armor or THREE FEET OF CONCRETE!
I may be fuzzy about the armor penetration, but I very distinctly remember the three feet of concrete.
...and that is just with the general issue ball (full metal jacketed) ammo.
In the Navy we also used armor piercing incendiary ammo every fourth round in the belt.

What the hell was our government doing using that kind of firepower against children?
But then again only one day later on April 20th, 1914 was the anniversary of the Ludlow Massacre too, where government troops also killed several school children.
So, I guess the precedent was already set and established.

Here is a view of what I am talking about for a size comparison.
This tells me they wanted those kids (and everyone else in there) dead.
From right to left: 9mm, AK round, M16 / AR-15 round, 7.62 NATO, 7.62 Russian, .303 British, 30/06, and the huge .50 caliber BMG I am talking about.
(gun nuts...I am not getting too technical here. My audience is the general population)

50 caliber comparison.jpg
 
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One thing stuck out in my mind while watching...how did the gov. manage to get away with doing this? It was nothing less than an unnecessary slaughter of many innocent people who just wanted to be left alone...
 
Elvira said:
One thing stuck out in my mind while watching...how did the gov. manage to get away with doing this? It was nothing less than an unnecessary slaughter of many innocent people who just wanted to be left alone...
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Because everyone remembered Jonestown and another group of "people who just wanted to be left alone". Lunatics accumulating firearms is never a good sign.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Because everyone remembered Jonestown and another group of "people who just wanted to be left alone". Lunatics accumulating firearms is never a good sign.
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What laws did they break?
 
Elvira said:
What laws did they break?
Click to expand...

Other than the sexual misconduct and abuse? The fact that they were modifying weapons for automatic gunfire, which is illegal; the fact that they considered drug trafficking a desirable way to make money, also illegal; oh, and the fact that they responded to a legal and lawful search warrant with gunfire.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Other than the sexual misconduct and abuse? The fact that they were modifying weapons for automatic gunfire, which is illegal; the fact that they considered drug trafficking a desirable way to make money, also illegal; oh, and the fact that they responded to a legal and lawful search warrant with gunfire.
Click to expand...

Those things and much worse is done all over this country more times than any of us would like to think and nothing is done about it...what made this group different, that they deserved the attack they got?
 
Elvira said:
Those things and much worse is done all over this country more times than any of us would like to think and nothing is done about it...what made this group different, that they deserved the attack they got?
Click to expand...

But in reality, there are plenty of raids and law enforcement activity all over the country. The reason why they were different was because they shot it out rather than allow the, again, completely legal search warrant to be carried out, and because they holed up in a compound so it was a siege style situation.
 
Elvira said:
What laws did they break?
Click to expand...

I remember at the time, the ATF's excuse was they were "abusing children".
So let's save them all by firing .50 caliber machine guns into where those same children live.
AFT logic.

Another plausible "reason" was the ATF has getting a bad rap for some previous high profile abuses of power, so they wanted to put on a news event to show how good and effective they were. I heard the News vans were on site several days before their botched raid....and they did not launch it until all the news vans were up and running.

If their intent was to arrest their leader they had multiple chances for the sheriff to do it while he was out jogging along the perimeter.
They had no intention of doing this the right way.

Earlier in another raid a female ATF agent took obscene pleasure in stomping a kitten to death in a home that was raided.

Abuses of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...e83-88d6-3f53550b18a2/?utm_term=.5734791240df

These are the kind of people they are.
...and how dare anyone shoot back.

David Koresch(sp) was no saint either. During the standoff he had the opportunity to surrender and have his case be represented by a famous Houston lawyer (DeGarion?). Instead he chose to make some religious rants that were pretty meaningless and went on for days.
 
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PleasantValley said:
I remember at the time, the ATF's excuse was they were "abusing children".
So let's save them all by firing .50 caliber machine guns into where they live.

Another plausible "reason" was the ATF has getting a bad rap for some previous high profile abuses of power, so they wanted to put on a news event to show how good and effective they were. I heard the News vans were on site several days before their botched raid.

If their intent was to arrest their leader they had multiple chances for the sheriff to do it while he was out jogging along the perimeter.
They had no intention of doing this the right way.
Earlier in another raid a female ATF agent took obscene pleasure in stomping a kitten to death in the home that was raided.
These are the kind of people they are.
...and how dare anyone shoot back.

David Koresch(sp) was no saint either. During the standoff he had the opportunity to surrender and have his case be represented by a famous Houston lawyer (DeGarion?). Instead he chose to make some religious rants that were pretty meaningless and went on for days.
Click to expand...

Yes, people trying to murder law enforcement is bad. I'm surprised you didn't grasp that.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Other than the sexual misconduct and abuse? The fact that they were modifying weapons for automatic gunfire, which is illegal; the fact that they considered drug trafficking a desirable way to make money, also illegal; oh, and the fact that they responded to a legal and lawful search warrant with gunfire.
Click to expand...

1. Modifying weapons for full auto fire. NOT a DEATH PENALTY offense.

2. "considering"? NOT illegal and never a DEATH PENALTY offense.

3. It is a matter of record the AFT opened fire first on an unarmed David Koresh at his front door. That is when they took cover and returned fire. They had been used to doing it so many times before on raids, it was an old habit. Others had fired back at them before but few hit them. Some of those that did, were "No Billed" as it was ruled justified self-defense.
 
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Tigerace117 said:
Yes, people trying to murder law enforcement is bad. I'm surprised you didn't grasp that.
Click to expand...

Self defense is not murder. Numerous courts have upheld that view.
Even if it is the police trying to kill you by abusing their power.
As in the case of Randy Weaver and several others killing agents that abused their power.

I am surprised you did not grasp that?
 
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PleasantValley said:
1. Modifying weapons for full auto fire. NOT a DEATH PENALTY offense.

2. "considering"? NOT illegal and never a DEATH PENALTY offense.

3. It is a matter of record the AFT opened fire first on an unarmed David Koresh at his front door. That is when they took cover and returned fire. They had been used to doing it so many times before on raids, it was an old habit.
Click to expand...

1. Shooting at federal agents, however, means that they will shoot back. That was a deliberate choice they made. They broke the law, they chose to shoot it out rather than allow a perfectly legal search, they had to face the consequences.

2. Oh really? Dug trafficking being promoted is not illegal? And again, shooting at federal agents means that they will shoot back.

3. Actually, it's a matter of public record that nobody knows who fired the first shot, but that the cultists shot at both federal agents and National Guard helicopters.
 
PleasantValley said:
Self defense is not murder. Numerous courts have upheld that view.
Even if it is the police trying to kill you by abusing their power.
As in the case of Randy Weaver and several others.

I am surprised you did not grasp that?
Click to expand...

It's not "self defense" in the slightest. A court feeling bad because Weaver put his family in danger deliberately and got his kid killed for shooting at law enforcement doesn't change the facts.

You boys sure seem surprised and indignant that you can't just kill with impunity.
 
Tigerace117 said:
It's not "self defense" in the slightest. A court feeling bad because Weaver put his family in danger deliberately and got his kid killed for shooting at law enforcement doesn't change the facts.

You boys sure seem surprised and indignant that you can't just kill with impunity.
Click to expand...

...and at that comment, I walk away.
 
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Superfly said:
Did anybody watch this miniseries on Paramount TV?

If so, what did you think of it?
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Freedom of religion used as an excuse for child abuse tends to piss me off too much. So, not planning to watch this one.

If the dude had any credibility, he would have let the children leave, not hid behind them, as if they were a human shield.
 
PleasantValley said:
I remember at the time, the ATF's excuse was they were "abusing children".
So let's save them all by firing .50 caliber machine guns into where those same children live.
AFT logic.

Another plausible "reason" was the ATF has getting a bad rap for some previous high profile abuses of power, so they wanted to put on a news event to show how good and effective they were. I heard the News vans were on site several days before their botched raid....and they did not launch it until all the news vans were up and running.

If their intent was to arrest their leader they had multiple chances for the sheriff to do it while he was out jogging along the perimeter.
They had no intention of doing this the right way.

Earlier in another raid a female ATF agent took obscene pleasure in stomping a kitten to death in a home that was raided.

Abuses of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...e83-88d6-3f53550b18a2/?utm_term=.5734791240df

These are the kind of people they are.
...and how dare anyone shoot back.

David Koresch(sp) was no saint either. During the standoff he had the opportunity to surrender and have his case be represented by a famous Houston lawyer (DeGarion?). Instead he chose to make some religious rants that were pretty meaningless and went on for days.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I believe it's called overkill...literally...
 
calamity said:
Freedom of religion used as an excuse for child abuse tends to piss me off too much. So, not planning to watch this one.

If the dude had any credibility, he would have let the children leave, not hid behind them, as if they were a human shield.
Click to expand...

I said the same thing, but either way - it was interesting to watch. His thought processes, the thought processes of the feds that were involved.
 
PleasantValley said:
I did not watch it for a personal reason.
A friend of mine just happened to be there on April 19th, 1993 when the SHTF.
He brought back a brass shell casing from some vehicle that was firing into the compound he was near.
They were herding everyone away when the firing started and he picked up the casing as he was shuffled away.
When i saw it, my mouth dropped. it was a .50 caliber machine gun round brass shell casing.
Our government was firing full auto .50 caliber rounds into a wooden building knowing full well there were many children inside.
I have yet to see this very real fact mentioned in any books, movies, or other sources.

When i was in the Navy and fired one of those they said in our training it was designed to penetrate 3 inches of armor or THREE FEET OF CONCRETE!
I may be fuzzy about the armor penetration, but I very distinctly remember the three feet of concrete.
...and that is just with the general issue ball (full metal jacketed) ammo.
In the Navy we also used armor piercing incendiary ammo every fourth round in the belt.

What the hell was our government doing using that kind of firepower against children?
But then again only one day later on April 20th, 1914 was the anniversary of the Ludlow Massacre too, where government troops also killed several school children.
So, I guess the precedent was already set and established.

Here is a view of what I am talking about for a size comparison.
This tells me they wanted those kids (and everyone else in there) dead.
From right to left: 9mm, AK round, M16 / AR-15 round, 7.62 NATO, 7.62 Russian, .303 British, 30/06, and the huge .50 caliber BMG I am talking about.
(gun nuts...I am not getting too technical here. My audience is the general population)

View attachment 67229838
Click to expand...

You might want to watch. This show is not as government friendly as you'd imagine. The ATF, HRT and FBI come across looking pretty bad (as they should, if my memory serves from 25 years ago). The hostage negotiator questioned why they were using a gas that was banned in the Geneva Convention, yet they used it anyway, and that is what killed most of the women and children.
 
Elvira said:
One thing stuck out in my mind while watching...how did the gov. manage to get away with doing this? It was nothing less than an unnecessary slaughter of many innocent people who just wanted to be left alone...
Click to expand...

The government gets away with a lot of **** that they shouldn't.
 
The FBI, ATF, etc, were a cluster**** then anyway. They were looking for goodwill because of the Ruby Ridge snafu.

Granted, the Branch Davidians should not have fired upon the FBI, etc, the FBI should have never fired on them. According to witnesses (Branch Davidians and Feds), the Feds fired first.

And why? If the kids are in danger, take them out of the situation. There was nothing to lead anyone to believe that they were going to open fire on anybody. They seemed to be peaceful people. ****ed up ideas about marriage, sex and kids, yes, but that happens all over the world, and 75 people don't get killed over it. Take the kids, let the parents prove that they are fit enough to regain custody, and then give them back. Don't kill them.
 
It's okay, we are now an entire nation of David Koresh's.
Henceforth any man who claims he is a messiah, and has the cash to back it up, receives a free pass on ANY behavior whatsoever.

Did the BATF act reasonably? No, it doesn't look like they did.
Is that an excuse to label Koresh's bunch as "just some decent patriotic Americans"?
**** NO. It wasn't a church, it was a heavily armed end times doomsday cult.
And guess what they dreamed of? Death in a heavily armed doomsday shootout with the government. Guess what else Koresh dreamed of? Sex with 12 year old girls, and YOUR WIFE.

Maybe it's time a lot of people drink the cyanide laced Kool-Aid, I heard Hale-Bopp is coming around again real soon.
Where are all the twelve year old white women at? :lamo
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
It's okay, we are now an entire nation of David Koresh's.
Henceforth any man who claims he is a messiah, and has the cash to back it up, receives a free pass on ANY behavior whatsoever.

Did the BATF act reasonably? No, it doesn't look like they did.
Is that an excuse to label Koresh's bunch as "just some decent patriotic Americans"?
**** NO. It wasn't a church, it was a heavily armed end times doomsday cult.
And guess what they dreamed of? Death in a heavily armed doomsday shootout with the government. Guess what else Koresh dreamed of? Sex with 12 year old girls, and YOUR WIFE.

Maybe it's time a lot of people drink the cyanide laced Kool-Aid, I heard Hale-Bopp is coming around again real soon.
Where are all the twelve year old white women at? :lamo
Click to expand...

Yeah it was messed up, his ideas about sex and women. No men were allowed to have sex there - only him. And with anyone he chose, at any age.

I don't know - were they considered doomsday? They had no predilections about mass suicide.

Everybody's looking for something. It's easy to get caught up in situations when somebody is promising you the world, and you don't have anything else to turn to.

What got me was the theology professor. He was an academic. He was a PhD in theology. You'd think he would have sniffed out something bad before any of them would have.
 
There's still a bunch of Branch Davidians around, and a scary number of them still believe in his teachings, too.
Many years ago I read a pretty good chunk of his sermons.
Fraid so, David Koresh WAS, in point of fact, a genuine end times doomsday messiah figure.
He lived, breathed, ate and drank armed doomsday battles to the death with the goverment.
It was "his thing".

And I'm about fed up with his admirers and sympathizers in the political arena.
 
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