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A different way to end racism?

ecofarm said:
Of course the majority power doesn't care about racial bigotry against us. It's not an inescapable disadvantage to us as a whole. If the OP was a minority, or educated, he would understand the impact of racism on minorities and the damage to society.

When a black person is a racial bigot, it's not a threat to whites as a whole. It will not create or perpetuate privilege against white people as a whole in employment, housing and the justice system.

When a white person is a racial bigot, it is a threat to black people as a whole. It does create and perpetuate privilege against black people as a whole in employment, housing and the justice system.

This fact is the basis of the rationalization by criminal elements to riot at instances of perceived injustice. Criminals rationalize rioting as an act of protection. White criminals do not riot at instances of perceived injustice because there is no threat to the whole upon which to rationalize a protection excuse.

Ignoring race will not diminish majority privilege and racism, it would perpetuate them. One does not solve a problem by ignoring it.
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Do you think my hypothetical social experiment would work?
 
ecofarm said:
Of course the majority power doesn't care about racial bigotry against us. It's not an inescapable disadvantage to us as a whole. If the OP was a minority, or educated, he would understand the impact of racism on minorities and the damage to society.

When a black person is a racial bigot, it's not a threat to whites as a whole. It will not create or perpetuate privilege against white people as a whole in employment, housing and the justice system.

When a white person is a racial bigot, it is a threat to black people as a whole. It does create and perpetuate privilege against black people as a whole in employment, housing and the justice system.

This fact is the basis of the rationalization by criminal elements to riot at instances of perceived injustice. Criminals rationalize rioting as an act of protection. White criminals do not riot at instances of perceived injustice because there is no threat to the whole upon which to rationalize a protection excuse.

Ignoring race will not diminish majority privilege and racism, it would perpetuate them. One does not solve a problem by ignoring it.
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I would agree with that......if it was 20 years ago. If you don't think anything has changed, any progress has been made, then maybe everything you and others have been doing is failing.
 
Bodhisattva said:
One major flaw from race baiters is they think hating one race because if their skin color is not racist... one has to hate all races to be a real racist.
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Hating because of skin color and disliking because of behavior are two very different things.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Black people can be and SOME are racists...
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i added the word some only simply because i know thats what you meant lol

100% factual and correct
nobody educated, honest and objective denies that fact
 
TrumpPence2020 said:
Hating because of skin color and disliking because of behavior are two very different things.
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Not when one groups an entire group into one category... then it is good old fashioned racism.
 
holbritter said:
Do you think my hypothetical social experiment would work?
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Hi, holbritter.

I think the only way your experiment would work is if you removed your subjects from the influence of anyone not born into the experiment. You would need to ensure that any media the subjects were exposed to were 100% race neutral, meaning that no one particular race dominated their TV screens or were disproportionately represented in literature or advertising, or anything else. You would have to ensure that they all received the same opportunities for the rest of their lives in their education (which would have to be severely restricted, so as to not mention the many many cases of racism that drove the world to exist in it's current state), and that they had the same income opportunities as well.

If you could create that environment, your experiment would probably result in people that were not racist, because people who are racist are a product of their environment...same as people who are not racist.
 
OlNate said:
Hi, holbritter.

I think the only way your experiment would work is if you removed your subjects from the influence of anyone not born into the experiment. You would need to ensure that any media the subjects were exposed to were 100% race neutral, meaning that no one particular race dominated their TV screens or were disproportionately represented in literature or advertising, or anything else. You would have to ensure that they all received the same opportunities for the rest of their lives in their education (which would have to be severely restricted, so as to not mention the many many cases of racism that drove the world to exist in it's current state), and that they had the same income opportunities as well.

If you could create that environment, your experiment would probably result in people that were not racist, because people who are racist are a product of their environment...same as people who are not racist.
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Yes! I agree. Wish there was a way to make it real. I thought of a way (prev post) but how to do it without changing written history was a sticking point.
 
holbritter said:
Yes! I agree. Wish there was a way to make it real. I thought of a way (prev post) but how to do it without changing written history was a sticking point.
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The only thing I see as a risk, even if this were possible, though, is that you would lose all the lessons that we have learned along the way. If we could create a "fresh start" generation, they would still be humans, with the potential for both good and ill. So, while you might eliminate racism, you could create other, unforeseen problems.

And let's face it, there's very little about the world that hasn't been shaped by racism, or other notions of superiority, in one form or another.

As uncomfortable as it may be, I think facing our sins head on is the more effective approach...and these lessons would be a lot easier if there weren't contradictory rhetoric around the validity or importance of those histories. The histories aren't all bad, there were many achievements and fantastic moments throughout. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater would be a sad sacrifice, I'd like to think that we could arrive at a place of decency without that.

But I think focusing on environment is a good start...creating places where racism simply isn't permitted, so that relationships and conversations can take place safely and develop, without the fear of experiencing the negativities associated with racism, which can then spread from those places to form the norm in society. I know that sounds like snowflake-speak, and hell no to safe spaces, but your experiment is essentially about creating the ultimate safe space. :)
 
OlNate said:
The only thing I see as a risk, even if this were possible, though, is that you would lose all the lessons that we have learned along the way. If we could create a "fresh start" generation, they would still be humans, with the potential for both good and ill. So, while you might eliminate racism, you could create other, unforeseen problems.

And let's face it, there's very little about the world that hasn't been shaped by racism, or other notions of superiority, in one form or another.

As uncomfortable as it may be, I think facing our sins head on is the more effective approach...and these lessons would be a lot easier if there weren't contradictory rhetoric around the validity or importance of those histories. The histories aren't all bad, there were many achievements and fantastic moments throughout. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater would be a sad sacrifice, I'd like to think that we could arrive at a place of decency without that.

But I think focusing on environment is a good start...creating places where racism simply isn't permitted, so that relationships and conversations can take place safely and develop, without the fear of experiencing the negativities associated with racism, which can then spread from those places to form the norm in society. I know that sounds like snowflake-speak, and hell no to safe spaces, but your experiment is essentially about creating the ultimate safe space. :)
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Good point. Never thought of it that way. I agree with you on focusing on the environment. I'd also like to see the hyperbole of all parties to ease up. It seems there is calm, then a hysterical flashpoint, then calm, rinse and repeat. Of course it doesn't help any that stupid crap comes out of the Presidents mouth, which starts these flashpoints.

I think also, that each generation is less racist then the last. Eventually we will get there, it's just too slow. :)
 
holbritter said:
Please, please....this is not meant as a free for all fight thread!

With the recent threads I've been reading I guess I've been thinking alot about this. It might seem far fetched at first, but think about for a minute before trashing the idea. Thanks.


What do you think a social experiment would show, if you had a bunch of kids of different races that are brought up together without any outside influence on race? No history of racial tensions, no history of slavery of a specific race or color, no biased views from politics, religion, etc. The word racism, bigotry, stereotype doesn't exist.
In this hypothetical experiment, would these kids grow up with any racist tendencies or thoughts? I don't think so, and I don't think they would inherently recognize there is a different race. Just that they look different.

If you think, like I do, that this hypothetical group would grow up and not even have racism in their lives, why don't we fight current racism like this. What I mean by that, is instead of constantly pointing out and reminding the new generations of past misdeeds, instead ignore the differences, because they don't matter?

I'm not a scholar, so I'm sure I'm not putting all this in the right words, but I think you get my drift. If we attacked racism that way going forward, could future generations eventually produce a generation that doesn't even know that racism is a word?

Edit: I started thinking about it because of something my daughter said. She lives in NYC, and I don't remember what we were talking about specifically, but it had to do with something concerning racism that she saw.
Her statement "Honestly Mom, I didn't even consider what race they were until someone brought it up". Meaning she wasn't coming at the situation with "racism" as a thought, it was just a disagreement between two 'people'.
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I think that would work to some degree but it would not fix everything, especially as you increased the size of the group of children and you held that experiment over a long period of time. Humans are just kind of ****ty to each other. We find many ways to be mean to various groups and one of the easiest ways to be mean is by identifiable physical characteristics. You see this in school where the kid that got glasses early got picked on or a kid with a disability got picked on or the poor kid in crappy clothes got picked on, ect, ect, ect.

Do your experiment, with a lot of kids, and over a long period of time...and there'd be groups that would form up on various fringes in small numbers that would develop racist thoughts. Then those thoughts of the fringes would then be voiced to others and spread some. How far and how deep would it spread? Populate a new planet with your experiment and then come back in two thousand years and you'd see the rise and fall of the same types of atrocities that we have in our history.

Sorry that I'm such a pessimist.
 
holbritter said:
Good point. Never thought of it that way. I agree with you on focusing on the environment. I'd also like to see the hyperbole of all parties to ease up. It seems there is calm, then a hysterical flashpoint, then calm, rinse and repeat. Of course it doesn't help any that stupid crap comes out of the Presidents mouth, which starts these flashpoints.

I think also, that each generation is less racist then the last. Eventually we will get there, it's just too slow. :)
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Yes, I agree...and I would add, that wait probably seems longer if you're on the marginalized side of things, which is why I am more understanding with their anger, and more conscious of curbing my own. Waiting doesn't seem so bad if you're waiting in a good spot...it should be understandable that the reverse would also be true. :)
 
holbritter said:
Do you think my hypothetical social experiment would work?
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I'd have to give that a few minutes thought. If I'm around a bit, I'll give it a read. Sorry for thinking that other post was the OP, that's why I didn't comment on the OP first.
 
holbritter said:
I would agree with that......if it was 20 years ago. If you don't think anything has changed, any progress has been made, then maybe everything you and others have been doing is failing.
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Strawman. No one did, or ever will, claim nothing has changed. I presume you agree that it's not perfect yet, and thus measures to address the issue are just.
 
ecofarm said:
Strawman. No one did, or ever will, claim nothing has changed. I presume you agree that it's not perfect yet, and thus measures to address the issue are just.
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Far from perfect, but getting a lot better, imo.
 
The govt. loves the race issues, it helps them keep us divided.
 
holbritter said:
Far from perfect, but getting a lot better, imo.
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Every generation we get better thanks to exposure, awareness, knowledge and understanding. Once a person realizes that marginalization of the innocent harms society, it's a matter of self/society improvement.
 
holbritter said:
What do you think a social experiment would show, if you had a bunch of kids of different races that are brought up together without any outside influence on race? No history of racial tensions, no history of slavery of a specific race or color, no biased views from politics, religion, etc. The word racism, bigotry, stereotype doesn't exist.

In this hypothetical experiment, would these kids grow up with any racist tendencies or thoughts? I don't think so, and I don't think they would inherently recognize there is a different race. Just that they look different.

If you think, like I do, that this hypothetical group would grow up and not even have racism in their lives, why don't we fight current racism like this. What I mean by that, is instead of constantly pointing out and reminding the new generations of past misdeeds, instead ignore the differences, because they don't matter?
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There's a possibility that the subjects would associate the different look with traits. If the white person is stupid, it might be presumed that whites are stupid. I'm not sure we can predict the outcome. It would be an interesting experiment, though obviously unethical regarding the subjects so we'll never get to see the outcome, which could be one of many possible outcomes that would appear in further iterations.

I'm not a scholar, so I'm sure I'm not putting all this in the right words, but I think you get my drift. If we attacked racism that way going forward, could future generations eventually produce a generation that doesn't even know that racism is a word?
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That would be possible if systemic privilege did not exist. As long as minorities are disadvantaged as a whole, ignoring the problem will only make it worse. At its heart, your proposal is anti intellectual in the sense that it proposes we avoid studying and taking action regarding a social issue. As if putting our heads in the sand would somehow improve the situation.

Of course, if systemic privilege did not exist than the corrective measure you propose would not be necessary as race would no longer matter.

Edit: I started thinking about it because of something my daughter said. She lives in NYC, and I don't remember what we were talking about specifically, but it had to do with something concerning racism that she saw.
Her statement "Honestly Mom, I didn't even consider what race they were until someone brought it up". Meaning she wasn't coming at the situation with "racism" as a thought, it was just a disagreement between two 'people'.
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There's a chance she didn't see the race issues of the incident. Many people fail to see racism where it clearly exists and would be obvious to one formally educated on the subject.


I'd like to note... Regarding our previous exchange herein, when I refer to "a threat to the group as a whole" I don't mean wiping them out, I mean the perpetuation of inescapable racial disadvantage. I mean it's a threat to everyone in the group regarding fairness in housing, employment and the justice system. Perhaps you misunderstood the statement as a threat to the existence of the group, and that's why you pointed to 20 years ago. Even today, you'll recognize of course, black people and other minorities (as groups and in general) don't get a fair shot.
 
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