Notes to some of the ladies...

SheWolf · Dec 4, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
Actually, that is complete bull**** and proves that you don't know what you are talking about. Far too many men believe that that kind of behavior is completely acceptable. That's why it keeps happening and why it often doesn't get reported. The education on this issue starts with men and especially boys. Do you know what percentage of girls report having been placed in an uncomfortable sexual situation by the time they are 16 or 17? Nearly all, at least from my observation, and I have worked with hundreds. And why is that? Because boys believe it is acceptable... and pretty much no one does anything to tell them different.

So, as I said, you have no clue on this issue.

Men have a responsibility to not act in the first place. If men were better educated on this issue... starting from a young age, perhaps this would be less of an issue. And as you have been told, but refuse to listen to, there are many factors as to why one would not report an incident when it happens. You ignoring this is completely irrelevant as to it's veracity.

I agree with all your points. We can't expect women to police the entire situation themselves. Men also have a responsibility, and it starts with their behavior. In countries were women wear burkas, can't drive a car, and cannot walk down the street with a male they are not married are related to, rape still occurs.

I constantly say on this site that I intend on raising my sons to respect girls and women. I know I will have at least two sons, because we are adopting them and I already know them.

SheWolf · Dec 4, 2017

Josie said:
You said he took the girl's car --- that's against the law.

Yes, the guy is a disgusting jerk. He needs a swift kick in the balls, but it sounds like he preys on women who won't stand up for themselves.

It wasn't her car in the legal sense. She was his au pair, from a foreign country, and it was the car she drove. He took the keys away and turned off internet and utilities. Since she was a foreign au pair/nanny she didn't have anywhere to go, no family or friends in the country. She also didn't speak really good English.

He treated her like that for a long time. She was finally able to connect with other people in the US, and got out of the situation.

They guy has a ton of creepy stories like that. He brags to my husband about all the women he gets. I don't think he has any idea that my husband is not impressed, envious, or jealous. My husband just thinks he is creep.

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 5, 2017

HowardBThiname said:
Let's just do a little twist on that -- if your teen daughter came home and told you that she'd accompanied a man to his hotel room and that he tried to force her into sex but that she was able to get away, what would you tell her?

Would you tell her that she'd done everything right?

Because, I'd ground my daughter for a year and tell her she did something very stupid.

Then, I'd kick his ass. But, my daughter would not get off thinking she'd done a smart thing.

Your question presents a false dichotomy. I would do neither of those things. I would tell her that SHE made some bad decisions and that he was an ass. I would also tell her that if she were raped that would have been his doing, but that she has to do better at taking care of herself. I doubt I'd ground her unless she snuck out or did something like that.

And, at the same time, we teach them that certain behaviors will make it more likely that they fall victim to assault.

Which is identical to what I said... teaching our women to keep themselves safe.

Blame means nothing in the face of grief.

Which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 5, 2017

MaggieD said:
I understand your field is psychology? A licensed social worker in schools perhaps? Not sure, but that’s what I remember. If I’m incorrect, or am calling your degree by the wrong name, accept my apology. You are not always right. And your experience has been, if Im right, mostly with young people. I’m not talking about young people. I’m talking about adult women.

Not a school social worker. Psychotherapist in private practice specializing in working with adolescents... amongst other things. Thing is, adult women learn about these interactions and what is acceptable while they are teenagers.

My opinion differs from yours. It comes from a woman’s perspective, perhaps that accounts for it, because my life experiences are much different than yours. And while you, in your personal sex life, have interacted with women (I assume), I have only interacted with men. To say these perverts don’t know they’re wrong is to then assume they are sociopaths at the very least. And perhaps many of them are. But certainly not all or even most. Most every man knows it’s wrong to force unwanted sexual attention on a woman. These men carefully pick their marks just as surely as a pedophile picks and grooms his or hers.

We are not talking about rape, here, an act that most men, other than mostly psychopaths, know is unacceptable. We are talking about other kinds of behaviors, less overt. Lots of men consider those behaviors acceptable ways to flirt or have a sexual encounter. The power differential doesn't matter to them... in fact, it's a means to an end. In a lot of ways, sex is about power. This just exemplifies that.

Most every woman knows it’s risky business to accept an invitation from a stranger to go to a hotel room with someone she’s met in the bar. In fact, in MANY cases, women who do so in upscale hotels are prostitutes working the floor. If an innocent accepts such an invitation and is the victim of an aggressive pass when she gets there, why doesn’t she report it? It’s because she understands she bears responsibility. And she most certainly does. If she chooses to remain silent about an actual sexual assault, and comes out ten years later to accuse someone of same because he’s famous, she is exploiting for some reason. Shame? Fame? Fortune? Truth or lie? There is a statute of limitations for a reason.

This is a very specific scenario: woman accepting an invitation to go to a hotel room with a stranger. Very narrow set of parameters. Why would she not report it? Perhaps due to the concern of how she will be verbally assaulted by being called a whore, a slut, or a prostitute by others. For many, it would be better to have one horrible experience than to have endless horrible experiences.

A young girl you counseled ten years ago steps forward and claims you exposed yourself to her during several of your sessions. You are stunned. How do you defend yourself? And, in your world, the cop who interviews you, when you say, “I can’t believe this is happening to me!” says back to you, “THEN YOU SHOULDNT HAVE DONE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.” Yeah, that’s the ticket. If I were you, in your business, I would make it MY business to never have a one-on-one session with a young troubled girl. Such are the times we live in.

Certainly something I think about many days.

At any rate, my three observations in my OP pertain to adult women who have these sexual assaults happen TO them as grown women. Their many years later accusations ruin his life, his career and his family. We SHOULD take them with a grain of salt. But your answer is THEN THEY SHOULDNT DO THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. See any problem with that line of thinking, Captain? Guilty until proven innocent perhaps?

In the scenarios we are talking about that have been in the news as of late, most of the men in question have either admitted to the accusations, or there has been enough evidence to demonstrate that they did what they are being accused of doing. When neither of those two situations are in place, I always go with "he's innocent" until his guilt is proven. A good example of this is a famous case from a number of decades ago: Tawana Brawly. Didn't believe her for a second because there was no evidence that indicated that what she claimed happen, actually happened. This is not true for the cases we are discussing.

Yes, I can see why a woman might wait ten or twenty years to step forward. That doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. And MY opinion is that it ISN’T.

And I do not see it as right or wrong. It's situational.

(I always enjoy sparring with you. We don’t do it much, but it’s always a challenge. You have an uncanny ability to force me to think through my thoughts.)

I do it with most people. My clients would say that it's an annoying personality trait. They'd also say that they are glad that I can do it.

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 5, 2017

Bodhisattva said:
"uncomfortable" is a terrible metric. The boys are "uncomfortable" too...

Nervous of rejection. Worried they are pressuring the girl. Wondering where is the line?

Those two levels of discomfort are completely different and are completely incongruous.

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 5, 2017

Goshin said:
I've been pondering this question recently, about why some men (and let's be clear it is *some*, not all or most) act this way.

It is kind of a foreign concept to me. I grew up in a rather traditional family and had three sisters. My father was a kind but stern man who had no tolerance for bad behavior. I grew up watching him treat my mother with respect and courtesy. I was taught from a young age to be considerate of females and that to use one's male advantage against them in any way was unacceptable.

I was also taught that fidelity and sexual restraint were expected and proper for both genders, both at home and at church. My old pastor was quite merciless on the subject of office flirtation or even thinking about persons other than one's spouse, and hammered the men about it even harder than the women.

So that's what I grew up with.

Then I arrived at Jr High. Though not a majority by any means, there were quite a few teenage boys who not only spoke to girls in very aggressively sexual terms, there were some who went further and got grabby.

To a good little Baptist boy raised in a traditional home, it was more than a little shocking.

I had also been raised on John Wayne movies and had a father who tolerated no slightest impropriety towards his wife or daughters. I knew my father had flattened more than one man who spoke inappropriately in the presence of a lady.

Yup, you guessed it. I got into quite a few fights on behalf of some little gal who was being harassed. Didn't get into much trouble over it either; different times.

Well, things have changed I suppose. And then again, it isn't like powerful men abusing their position to get women is a new thing. I don't really get it myself.

But I think a lot of it is what young men SEE modeled as an example, more than what they are told. To some degree, how their father treats their mother (assuming they even have a father to speak of, the way things are these days), and how they are expected to treat their sisters (if they have any) or other female relatives.

And then we have the point where peers and pop culture become big influences, typically in the teenage years. Would it be controversial to say I think a lot of Rap and Rappers have done a generation a grave disservice in modeling how to treat women? I don't care if it is, I think it is so.

I never cared much about being up on the latest trends, so I raised Son#1 much like I was raised. I modeled how to treat a woman for him, by the respect and care with which I treated women in my life. I even required him to treat his mother, my ex-wife, with respect and consideration even though she wasn't much of a mother.

When he was 11 or 12 we had "the talk".... actually a lot of talks over some years... and one thing I told him was that forcing or coercing someone into sex was one of the most evil and horrible things a person could do, right up there with murdering innocents. Some might think it extreme, but after explaining what rape was I told him that if he ever did such a thing, I'd kill him myself. Given that he knew how much I loved him and that I'd rather die than him, I think this statement made an impression.

He had his first real date at 15. Before the evening in question, we had a long talk about proper behavior, courtesy and respect. I told him not to pull up and blow the horn for her, but to go to the door knock and wait. I told him to submit to any questions her parents had graciously and to wait patiently until she was ready, as it is a lady's prerogative to make a gentleman wait. I told him to open doors, hold chairs, ask her what she wanted, etc. I told him to always remember that she was a real person with feelings, and she was someone's beloved daughter, and that by taking her out it was HIS responsibility to see that she had a nice evening and to bring her home on time and in one piece. Etc.

Of course at that age their "relationship" didn't last too long, but that girl STILL talks about him with starry eyes years later.

God have mercy on you if you attempt to manhandle a woman in his presence, too, because he will have none.

Well anyway.... I rambled on a bit as old men do... but I think it is a pity more men are not raised with similar principles.

Excellent post. Pretty much agree with all of it and much of it mirrors my own upbringing. Many of the "players" may have been different, but the roles and the messages were the same. Interestingly enough, many of the teens that I work with whom either treat the opposite sex badly, or accept being treated badly, grew up in households where their parents modeled this terrible behavior. Actually, it's not interesting... it's rather predictable.

Thumper39 · Dec 5, 2017

TheGoverness said:
If any dude ever tries to take advantage of me, they will have a good kick to the balls.

That don't always work. Some guys like me keep their nuts in their wives purses. Go for the eyes.

HowardBThiname · Dec 5, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
Your question presents a false dichotomy. I would do neither of those things. I would tell her that SHE made some bad decisions and that he was an ass. I would also tell her that if she were raped that would have been his doing, but that she has to do better at taking care of herself. I doubt I'd ground her unless she snuck out or did something like that.

By saying that she made "bad decisions," you are, in fact, assigning some fault.

That's what Maggie was trying to get across to begin with. When females make poor decisions, they bear some responsibility for negative outcomes. That doesn't mean the perpetrator bears any less fault, but it's important to recognize that the female can be partially at fault as well.

Which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

It's not irrelevant to the discussion -- it's one of the most vital factors in teaching our loved ones to be safe. Because, when it comes right down to it -- fault pales in the face of grief. It it no consolation knowing that someone else was at fault for running over your child, or raping and murdering your daughter -- you just wish you could reverse time and get a "do over." Problem is -- you can't, so you have to take steps now to reduce the risk.

Getting it through a daughter's head that she SHOULD NOT accept a man's invitation to his hotel room is a good first step.

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 5, 2017

HowardBThiname said:
By saying that she made "bad decisions," you are, in fact, assigning some fault.

I'm assigning responsibility for what she does, not what happens to her due to the actions of another. I have consistently stated this throughout this discussion.

That's what Maggie was trying to get across to begin with. When females make poor decisions, they bear some responsibility for negative outcomes. That doesn't mean the perpetrator bears any less fault, but it's important to recognize that the female can be partially at fault as well.

And, Maggie and I disagree on this. I make the distinction between the two behaviors.

It's not irrelevant to the discussion -- it's one of the most vital factors in teaching our loved ones to be safe. Because, when it comes right down to it -- fault pales in the face of grief. It it no consolation knowing that someone else was at fault for running over your child, or raping and murdering your daughter -- you just wish you could reverse time and get a "do over." Problem is -- you can't, so you have to take steps now to reduce the risk.

Getting it through a daughter's head that she SHOULD NOT accept a man's invitation to his hotel room is a good first step.

No, it is completely irrelevant to the discussion. We are discussing a set of behaviors between two people and assigning responsibility. If you lose a loved one, grief is going to happen, regardless. It's a given so it has no bearing on why you lost the loved one.

joG · Dec 5, 2017

HowardBThiname said:
By saying that she made "bad decisions," you are, in fact, assigning some fault.

That's what Maggie was trying to get across to begin with. When females make poor decisions, they bear some responsibility for negative outcomes. That doesn't mean the perpetrator bears any less fault, but it's important to recognize that the female can be partially at fault as well.

It's not irrelevant to the discussion -- it's one of the most vital factors in teaching our loved ones to be safe. Because, when it comes right down to it -- fault pales in the face of grief. It it no consolation knowing that someone else was at fault for running over your child, or raping and murdering your daughter -- you just wish you could reverse time and get a "do over." Problem is -- you can't, so you have to take steps now to reduce the risk.

Getting it through a daughter's head that she SHOULD NOT accept a man's invitation to his hotel room is a good first step.

I think you might have that just about right.

HowardBThiname · Dec 5, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
I'm assigning responsibility for what she does, not what happens to her due to the actions of another. I have consistently stated this throughout this discussion.

And, Maggie and I disagree on this. I make the distinction between the two behaviors.

No, it is completely irrelevant to the discussion. We are discussing a set of behaviors between two people and assigning responsibility. If you lose a loved one, grief is going to happen, regardless. It's a given so it has no bearing on why you lost the loved one.

The deal is -- victim-blaming is sometimes valid.

Legally, it's called "contributory negligence," and just because someone, somewhere, came up with the term "victim-blaming" and then tried to associate it as a immoral directive does not mean it is immoral or invalid.

It's a matter of degree.

If your car is stolen while you're shopping and your insurance company finds out you left it unlocked with the keys in the ignition, they may not cover your loss. Why? Because, although you were the victim, your actions contributed to the crime.

The same thing can happen in sexual assault cases. They must each be looked at individually.

Today, we have a rash of people making sexual assault (or impropriety) accusations. Yet, if we question whether the accusers are telling the truth -- someone blurts out "victim-blaming," which then removes all logic from the conversation.

Some victims are totally innocent -- others bear some fault because they contributed via negligence.

The term "victim-blaming" assumes that victims cannot be partially at fault, which is inaccurate.

MaggieD · Dec 5, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
Not a school social worker. Psychotherapist in private practice specializing in working with adolescents... amongst other things. Thing is, adult women learn about these interactions and what is acceptable while they are teenagers.

We are not talking about rape, here, an act that most men, other than mostly psychopaths, know is unacceptable. We are talking about other kinds of behaviors, less overt. Lots of men consider those behaviors acceptable ways to flirt or have a sexual encounter. The power differential doesn't matter to them... in fact, it's a means to an end. In a lot of ways, sex is about power. This just exemplifies that.

This is a very specific scenario: woman accepting an invitation to go to a hotel room with a stranger. Very narrow set of parameters. Why would she not report it? Perhaps due to the concern of how she will be verbally assaulted by being called a whore, a slut, or a prostitute by others. For many, it would be better to have one horrible experience than to have endless horrible experiences.

Certainly something I think about many days.

In the scenarios we are talking about that have been in the news as of late, most of the men in question have either admitted to the accusations, or there has been enough evidence to demonstrate that they did what they are being accused of doing. When neither of those two situations are in place, I always go with "he's innocent" until his guilt is proven. A good example of this is a famous case from a number of decades ago: Tawana Brawly. Didn't believe her for a second because there was no evidence that indicated that what she claimed happen, actually happened. This is not true for the cases we are discussing.

And I do not see it as right or wrong. It's situational.

I do it with most people. My clients would say that it's an annoying personality trait. They'd also say that they are glad that I can do it.

I’ve forgotten the gyst of our disagreement. I agree with most of what you say here except will remind you that my OP was on three specific circumstances.

Goshin · Dec 5, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
I'm assigning responsibility for what she does, not what happens to her due to the actions of another. I have consistently stated this throughout this discussion.

And, Maggie and I disagree on this. I make the distinction between the two behaviors.

No, it is completely irrelevant to the discussion. We are discussing a set of behaviors between two people and assigning responsibility. If you lose a loved one, grief is going to happen, regardless. It's a given so it has no bearing on why you lost the loved one.

CaptainCourtesy said:
Excellent post. Pretty much agree with all of it and much of it mirrors my own upbringing. Many of the "players" may have been different, but the roles and the messages were the same. Interestingly enough, many of the teens that I work with whom either treat the opposite sex badly, or accept being treated badly, grew up in households where their parents modeled this terrible behavior. Actually, it's not interesting... it's rather predictable.

The way I try to express it is, the person who perpetrates the wrong is entirely at fault, period full stop. However, there are things one can do to increase or decrease their risk of being victimized, and these things are important to know about.

As is often the case, I resort to a personal story in illustration...

The niece that came to live with me (with her children) to get away from Druggie Hubby did not have a good father, and the relationship between her mother and father was distinctly dysfunctional and borderline abusive. That was what she saw growing up.

She ended up with self-esteem issues (which I prefer to call self-respect issues), and Daddy issues, and kind of a skewed view of what to expect from men. As a result, most of her relationships did not go well... the last one, with Druggie Hubby, was a hellish mess that went on for years.

It took me a while to figure out what was going on with her, that she put up with his crap for so long. This was not a pattern you saw in the rest of the family. The question of "WHY do you put up with this??" was on everyone's mind.

Well, for the reasons above, obviously... but sometimes what is obvious is hard to understand when you're too close to the problem.

I finally realized that she was so beaten-down and down on herself, not to mention scared, that in essence she needed to "borrow some backbone"... needed somewhere safe to go where he wouldn't follow and someone to help her do the necessary things to get clear of him. This was when I offered her my home and my protection, and she grabbed at it like a drowning person grabs a float.

So it has been almost three years now, longer than I expected, but she needed a lot more "reconstruction" than I realized. She's doing well, has her own little business going on, the kids are doing well in school and have largely forgotten Bad Daddy and his bad example.

This past year, she's been dipping her toes into dating again. We've had lots of long talks about how she got where she was, and while I was carefully clear that all that bad stuff was HIS fault, we went over how she got into that mess and how NOT to get into another one.

Mostly, to value herself properly, and to DEMAND any suitor value her highly and treat her accordingly. I've spent years rebuilding her confidence by treating her in a kindly and respectful manner, and telling her she should INSIST any man who wants to be a part of her life treat her at least as well.

She's already turned down several suitors who didn't meet the standard, which pleases me, as well as dumping one who seemed okay at first but soon started showing dubious behaviors. We talk about the "90 day rule"... that is, even a psycho can present a pleasant front for 90 days to get into your life, so keep them at arm's length for at least that long. There is a current would-be-beau with whom she is proceeding very slowly and carefully and requiring him to prove his worth over time.

So anyway my point being that the hellish life she had with Druggie Daddy was entirely HIS fault... but protecting herself from getting fooled again is something SHE is going to have to do, by changing her self-image and standards and what kind of person she allows in to her life.

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 6, 2017

HowardBThiname said:
The deal is -- victim-blaming is sometimes valid.

Legally, it's called "contributory negligence," and just because someone, somewhere, came up with the term "victim-blaming" and then tried to associate it as a immoral directive does not mean it is immoral or invalid.

It's a matter of degree.

If your car is stolen while you're shopping and your insurance company finds out you left it unlocked with the keys in the ignition, they may not cover your loss. Why? Because, although you were the victim, your actions contributed to the crime.

The same thing can happen in sexual assault cases. They must each be looked at individually.

Today, we have a rash of people making sexual assault (or impropriety) accusations. Yet, if we question whether the accusers are telling the truth -- someone blurts out "victim-blaming," which then removes all logic from the conversation.

Some victims are totally innocent -- others bear some fault because they contributed via negligence.

The term "victim-blaming" assumes that victims cannot be partially at fault, which is inaccurate.

Questioning whether an accuser is telling the truth is not victim blaming. Telling a victim that they have to show good judgment in making decisions is not victim blaming. Telling someone that they have any responsibility in getting raped, a behavior that was perpetrated upon them by another is victim blaming.

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 6, 2017

MaggieD said:
I’ve forgotten the gyst of our disagreement. I agree with most of what you say here except will remind you that my OP was on three specific circumstances.

I understand that and already discussed those three circumstances at length.

HowardBThiname · Dec 6, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
Questioning whether an accuser is telling the truth is not victim blaming. Telling a victim that they have to show good judgment in making decisions is not victim blaming. Telling someone that they have any responsibility in getting raped, a behavior that was perpetrated upon them by another is victim blaming.

The fact is -- sometimes a victim of rape does bear some responsibility for the event, although that does not remove ANY guilt from her attacker. But, the topic has morphed from what Maggie originally wrote in the OP, so let's revisit that:

1. When someone invites you to his hotel room and makes an aggressive pass, remember... by accepting his invitation, you’ve halfway accepted his ticket to ride.
2. When you are a wanna be starlet who doesn’t report aggressive unwanted advances from someone who can advance your career, you’ve become something close to a prostitute.
3. When you don’t report sexual harassment in the workplace, you are betraying every other woman in the place.

Nothing Maggie posted suggested that she was blaming a girl for being raped, but, as we've all agree, that girl can contribute to her rape by not taking sensible measures to ensure her safety.

We have to realize that these events don't happen in a vacuum. No man should get a pass for rape just because we recognize that actions of the female contributed. But, we should not be blind to those contributions, and we should make sure our daughters are very aware of the ways in which they might contribute to an attack on themselves.

As I said before -- the potentially devastating outcome must determine how we teach our daughters to conduct themselves.

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 6, 2017

HowardBThiname said:
The fact is -- sometimes a victim of rape does bear some responsibility for the event, although that does not remove ANY guilt from her attacker.

Fact is that the victim of rape NEVER bears any responsibility for the event as the event was a behavior done by someone else. An individual bears responsibility for their behaviors only.

But, the topic has morphed from what Maggie originally wrote in the OP, so let's revisit that:

[/B]

Nothing Maggie posted suggested that she was blaming a girl for being raped, but, as we've all agree, that girl can contribute to her rape by not taking sensible measures to ensure her safety.

No. The girl does not contribute to her rape. If the girl does not take sensible precautions to ensure her safety, THAT is her error, regardless of the outcome. Nothing else.

And I refuted each of Maggies points.

We have to realize that these events don't happen in a vacuum. No man should get a pass for rape just because we recognize that actions of the female contributed. But, we should not be blind to those contributions, and we should make sure our daughters are very aware of the ways in which they might contribute to an attack on themselves.

As I said before -- the potentially devastating outcome must determine how we teach our daughters to conduct themselves.

The actions of others are irrelevant to whether or not we should do whatever we can to keep ourselves safe... and how we should teach our children to do the same.

HowardBThiname · Dec 6, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
Fact is that the victim of rape NEVER bears any responsibility for the event as the event was a behavior done by someone else. An individual bears responsibility for their behaviors only.

Again, that's a nice sentiment, but incorrect. If a woman's negligent actions contribute to a rape, she is responsible to the extent of her actions. That doesn't mean she is at fault for the rape. She is responsible for her negligence.

The dangerous thing today, however, is that if women take what you're saying to heart, they may not take safety precautions and end up as statistics.

No. The girl does not contribute to her rape. If the girl does not take sensible precautions to ensure her safety, THAT is her error, regardless of the outcome. Nothing else.

We all have to take responsibility for our actions. I don't know why this is so difficult a concept to get across. A girl certainly CAN contribute to her own rape. That fact does not alleviate the guilt of the male.

And I refuted each of Maggies points.

I know you think you did - but I disagree.

The actions of others are irrelevant to whether or not we should do whatever we can to keep ourselves safe... and how we should teach our children to do the same.

Yours is a common -- but very dangerous -- position to take.

MaggieD · Dec 6, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
I understand that and already discussed those three circumstances at length.

As have I. Yours from the male perspective, lots of psychology classes, and a history of treating troubled souls. Mine from the perspective of a woman who’s lived the life, had it happen to her, her friends, and her acquaintances as well as her common sense. There is truth in much of what you say. Just as there is truth in much of what I say. Pretty sure we’re done here.

Nilly · Dec 6, 2017

TIME Person of the Year 2017: The Silence Breakers | Time.com

Other women, like the actor Selma Blair, weathered excruciating threats. Blair says she arrived at a hotel restaurant for a meeting with the independent film director James Toback in 1999 only to be told that he would like to see her in his room. There, she says, Toback told her that she had to learn to be more vulnerable in her craft and asked her to strip down. She took her top off. She says he then propositioned her for sex, and when she refused, he blocked the door and forced her to watch him masturbate against her leg. Afterward, she recalls him telling her that if she said anything, he would stab her eyes out with a Bic pen and throw her in the Hudson River.

"On October 26, 2017 Los Angeles Times reporter Glenn Whipp stated on Twitter that a total of 310 women had contacted him regarding incidents of sexual harassment involving Toback."

Clearly these women should all just have enrolled in Krav Maga. Rape problem solved.

Lursa · Dec 6, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
Those two levels of discomfort are completely different and are completely incongruous.

Agreed, but can you please expand on this? It seems to be a more common view than I expected.

Since this has become a mainstream topic, another male poster has consistently claimed that men's "feelings" are being ignored on this issue, regarding flashing private parts, touching, groping, etc.

Lursa · Dec 6, 2017

Goshin said:
The way I try to express it is, the person who perpetrates the wrong is entirely at fault, period full stop. However, there are things one can do to increase or decrease their risk of being victimized, and these things are important to know about.

Agreed and this issue infuriates me in discussions where people...and the govt...want to blame me, the victim, if someone breaks into my home and steals my firearms.

It's off topic but it just offers another example.

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 7, 2017

HowardBThiname said:
Again, that's a nice sentiment, but incorrect. If a woman's negligent actions contribute to a rape, she is responsible to the extent of her actions. That doesn't mean she is at fault for the rape. She is responsible for her negligence.

Which is what I have been saying. The woman is responsible for HER behaviors... or lack thereof.

The dangerous thing today, however, is that if women take what you're saying to heart, they may not take safety precautions and end up as statistics.

Since I have consistently stated that it is important for a woman... or anyone to practice good safety precautions, if a woman takes what I say to heart, she will remain safe and not end up as a statistic.

We all have to take responsibility for our actions. I don't know why this is so difficult a concept to get across. A girl certainly CAN contribute to her own rape. That fact does not alleviate the guilt of the male.

I'm not sure why it is so difficult to understand the difference between taking responsibility for one's own actions and not taking responsibility for someone else's. A woman cannot contribute to her own rape. She CAN make stupid choices that are unsafe.

I know you think you did - but I disagree.

Disagree all you like. Doesn't alter that I did.

Yours is a common -- but very dangerous -- position to take.

Actually, not only does my position advocate one taking responsibility for their own safety, it is actually YOUR position that is very dangerous. Blaming the victim creates a whole host of psychological issues and can create a sense of hopelessness resulting in one ignoring safety precautions and repetition of negative patterns.

HowardBThiname · Dec 7, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
Which is what I have been saying. The woman is responsible for HER behaviors... or lack thereof.

Since I have consistently stated that it is important for a woman... or anyone to practice good safety precautions, if a woman takes what I say to heart, she will remain safe and not end up as a statistic.

I'm not sure why it is so difficult to understand the difference between taking responsibility for one's own actions and not taking responsibility for someone else's. A woman cannot contribute to her own rape. She CAN make stupid choices that are unsafe.

Disagree all you like. Doesn't alter that I did.

Actually, not only does my position advocate one taking responsibility for their own safety, it is actually YOUR position that is very dangerous. Blaming the victim creates a whole host of psychological issues and can create a sense of hopelessness resulting in one ignoring safety precautions and repetition of negative patterns.

While you say that "it is important for a woman... or anyone to practice good safety precautions," if she does not -- and she is raped, you don't want the fact known that she made critical errors in judgement. You're calling that victim-blaming. You don't want her to hear that she made a mistake.

You also say "a woman cannot contribute to her own rape," but, realistically, she certainly can. Take the case of this gal who actually travels and lectures on sexual assault. If anyone should know how to keep themselves safe -- she should. Yet, she chose to take a shower with a man who she admitted had been drinking and she thought it wasn't wise to keep kissing him after she first kissed him.
Woman Live-Blogged Her Own Rape on Instagram

She apparently was truly raped in the shower, and that actually seems to surprise her.

I feel badly for her, but more than that, I feel badly for other young women who listen to her and adopt her attitude that they can take risky actions and still not be harmed.

This is why I say it's dangerous to make women think they cannot contribute to their own rapes, because they can -- that woman is a perfect example. The following paragraphs are from an article on Slate and I think it sums up the issue well:

Let’s be totally clear: Perpetrators are the ones responsible for committing their crimes, and they should be brought to justice. But we are failing to let women know that when they render themselves defenseless, terrible things can be done to them. Young women are getting a distorted message that their right to match men drink for drink is a feminist issue. The real feminist message should be that when you lose the ability to be responsible for yourself, you drastically increase the chances that you will attract the kinds of people who, shall we say, don’t have your best interest at heart. That’s not blaming the victim; that’s trying to prevent more victims.

Experts I spoke to who wanted young women to get this information said they were aware of how loaded it has become to give warnings to women about their behavior. “I’m always feeling defensive that my main advice is: ‘Protect yourself. Don’t make yourself vulnerable to the point of losing your cognitive faculties,’ ” says Anne Coughlin, a professor at the University of Virginia School of Law, who has written on rape and teaches feminist jurisprudence. She adds that by not telling them the truth—that they are responsible for keeping their wits about them—she worries that we are “infantilizing women.”

Sexual assault and drinking: Teach women the connection.

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 8, 2017

HowardBThiname said:
While you say that "it is important for a woman... or anyone to practice good safety precautions," if she does not -- and she is raped, you don't want the fact known that she made critical errors in judgement. You're calling that victim-blaming. You don't want her to hear that she made a mistake.

Please pay attention to what I am saying, as that is NOT it. I've repeated my position several times, now. Stop getting it wrong.

You also say "a woman cannot contribute to her own rape," but, realistically, she certainly can. Take the case of this gal who actually travels and lectures on sexual assault. If anyone should know how to keep themselves safe -- she should. Yet, she chose to take a shower with a man who she admitted had been drinking and she thought it wasn't wise to keep kissing him after she first kissed him.
Woman Live-Blogged Her Own Rape on Instagram

She apparently was truly raped in the shower, and that actually seems to surprise her.

I feel badly for her, but more than that, I feel badly for other young women who listen to her and adopt her attitude that they can take risky actions and still not be harmed.

This is why I say it's dangerous to make women think they cannot contribute to their own rapes, because they can -- that woman is a perfect example. The following paragraphs are from an article on Slate and I think it sums up the issue well:

Sexual assault and drinking: Teach women the connection.

A woman cannot contribute to her own rape and as I've explained, not only is saying that not dangerous... as long as the safety issue is seriously ingrained, but saying the opposite could be dangerous.

Notes to some of the ladies...

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

Member

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

Burned Out Ex-Mod

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

stb

Tenacious

Tenacious

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo