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Notes to some of the ladies...

americanwoman said:
Maybe it's not so easy for some women as it seems to be for you.

And is this only for starlets or the scared 16 year old who might have been taken into the freezer by her 30 something year old manager and was too intimidated to say no and still felt like it was somehow their fault so they didn't say anything for fear someone would call them a liar? Are they prostitutes too Maggie? Some of the ladies in the workplace may not speak up and then some time passes and they don't want to hear **** like this about them, like they are too weak or somehow instigated it because they didn't speak up when it happened.

Truth me though, I am teaching my daughter to not put up with anything and say something and not be ashamed of something that is not her fault.
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I am glad you are teaching your daughters, American Woman, and I am not surprised. And no, none of what I posted refers to young girls. Not a word of it. The greatest good that’s being done about all of these revelations is the loud and clear message that we’re not going to take it anymore. And I sincerely hope it has prompted discussions with our children, girls AND boys, that promote the strength we need to impart to our kids that it is NEVER EVER EVER their fault. And this...

 
blackjack50 said:
If a man is that aggressive...you have the legal right to KILL him. And you probably should. Resistance isn’t useless. It is superior. As much as your statement does have some truth to it...one should never discourage resistance. EVER. And the more women empowered to fight back...the more will.
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For 99% of women, trying to use REAL physical force to repel a pervert can result in their being seriously injured if the pervert is prepared to strike back. Their upper body strength is no match, their weight is no match, their reach is no match. Unless a woman is trained and practically PROFICIENT in martial arts or is carrying a weapon she is PREPARED TO USE, her best defense is very little defense at all. Inflicting serious pain on a person trying to assault a woman is a sure way to get punched in the face and perhaps escalating from there.

“Hello, 911?”
 
MaggieD said:
For 99% of women, trying to use REAL physical force to repel a pervert can result in their being seriously injured if the pervert is prepared to strike back. Their upper body strength is no match, their weight is no match, their reach is no match. Unless a woman is trained and practically PROFICIENT in martial arts or is carrying a weapon she is PREPARED TO USE, her best defense is very little defense at all. Inflicting serious pain on a person trying to assault a woman is a sure way to get punched in the face and perhaps escalating from there.

“Hello, 911?”
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You have no way of knowing how committed someone like that is. Esp. in a workplace environment, which is what we're mostly discussing. Like I wrote, you escalate. Be loud, move move move (away), push, make sure they know you're not going to submit, test their will. Get your phone out and dial if you can...that was definitely a good suggestion.

But no, unless you have a gun in your face or a knife to your throat, IMO DO NOT just think "OMG he's bigger than me! I dont stand a chance!" That is exactly what they want you to think. In the workplace or other situation where there are people nearby? Let 'em know it will be messy.
 
For people still wondering why many women did not immediately come forward, the explanation is complicated, but one major factor is that it'd be rather like a black person coming forward to report a crime committed by a white person in 1940s Alabama.

It just is not likely to work out well for them. Maybe if the person to whom it is reported is exceptionally fair and/or has a grudge against the person who is accused, it might work out. But generally it won't.

That's been changing. If something happens today, then maybe there's a bit less of an excuse in not reporting it because of the changing way society and the authorities react to these things. But it really isn't so simple that we can simply dismiss claims from, say, Moore's accusers just because they didn't immediately come forward back then.
 
blackjack50 said:
If a man is that aggressive...you have the legal right to KILL him. And you probably should. Resistance isn’t useless. It is superior. As much as your statement does have some truth to it...one should never discourage resistance. EVER. And the more women empowered to fight back...the more will.
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Women should fight back, but before that -- before they're in a situation where they have to fight -- they should be taught to shut down unwanted attention right away.
 
HowardBThiname said:
Women should fight back, but before that -- before they're in a situation where they have to fight -- they should be taught to shut down unwanted attention right away.
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Very true.
 
Lursa said:
You have no way of knowing how committed someone like that is. Esp. in a workplace environment, which is what we're mostly discussing. Like I wrote, you escalate. Be loud, move move move (away), push, make sure they know you're not going to submit, test their will. Get your phone out and dial if you can...that was definitely a good suggestion.

But no, unless you have a gun in your face or a knife to your throat, IMO DO NOT just think "OMG he's bigger than me! I dont stand a chance!" That is exactly what they want you to think. In the workplace or other situation where there are people nearby? Let 'em know it will be messy.
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I agree with everything you said here.
 
MaggieD said:
For 99% of women, trying to use REAL physical force to repel a pervert can result in their being seriously injured if the pervert is prepared to strike back. Their upper body strength is no match, their weight is no match, their reach is no match. Unless a woman is trained and practically PROFICIENT in martial arts or is carrying a weapon she is PREPARED TO USE, her best defense is very little defense at all. Inflicting serious pain on a person trying to assault a woman is a sure way to get punched in the face and perhaps escalating from there.

“Hello, 911?”
Click to expand...

Here is my issue with that statement...it takes no martial arts skill to use a pen or scissors or whatever. And at the point that a person is forcing themselves on you...if their junk is out? It doesn’t matter if I’m Brock Lesnar...getting the nuts grabbed and ripped and twisted is going to be debilitating. I’ve actually known someone who had a seizure as a result of a shot to the nuts. Trying to go blow for blow is stupid...yes. But fighting dirty is a lot different than what you are proposing. Fighting dirty is primarily about escaping. And nothing is off the table.

I’m not Expexting a woman to sneak a T shirt choke or a triangle onto a rapist. But shoving a pen into their throat or eye? Yes. If a dick comes out and gets aimed for the mouth? Just give them an Andy Duframe and bite it off
 
blackjack50 said:
Here is my issue with that statement...it takes no martial arts skill to use a pen or scissors or whatever. And at the point that a person is forcing themselves on you...if their junk is out? It doesn’t matter if I’m Brock Lesnar...getting the nuts grabbed and ripped and twisted is going to be debilitating. I’ve actually known someone who had a seizure as a result of a shot to the nuts. Trying to go blow for blow is stupid...yes. But fighting dirty is a lot different than what you are proposing. Fighting dirty is primarily about escaping. And nothing is off the table.

I’m not Expexting a woman to sneak a T shirt choke or a triangle onto a rapist. But shoving a pen into their throat or eye? Yes. If a dick comes out and gets aimed for the mouth? Just give them an Andy Duframe and bite it off
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I love this post! It reminds me of a supposed slogan of the agents assigned to protect the POTUS I read in a recent book...

If you’re fighting fair, you’re doing it wrong.
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MaggieD said:
  1. When someone invites you to his hotel room and makes an aggressive pass, remember... by accepting his invitation, you’ve halfway accepted his ticket to ride.
  2. When you are a wanna be starlet who doesn’t report aggressive unwanted advances from someone who can advance your career, you’ve become something close to a prostitute.
  3. When you don’t report sexual harassment in the workplace, you are betraying every other woman in the place.

Life isn’t easy. Some of the things our morals and character require us to do aren’t easy. But those tough things we’re often called on to do loudly speak the difference between the character we HAVE and the morals we like to THINK we have.

Just sayin’...

Let the bashing begin.
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'kay

Walking into a hotel room, or into someone's home, does not mean that you've consented to any sexual activity whatsoever. While it may be rude to lead someone on and leave, it should absolutely be the right of anyone to revoke consent, pretty much at any time, and for any reason.

Calling women "prostitutes" ignores how in many cases these women don't have much of a choice. These are powerful people we're discussing here, and if you refuse to be nice to them, they can torch your entire career (or do much worse things) before it even gets started.

I mean, really. The NYPD had Weinstein on tape harassing a woman, and they didn't press charges.

A refusal to report harassment does make it harder for everyone else. At the same time, until literally six weeks ago, reporting harassment was almost guaranteed to ****-can your career, or at least your current job. Tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people have complained of sexual harassment, only to be ignored -- or worse yet, to face worse harassment.

Your moral disapproval here is clearly misguided. The people who are acting wrongly here are the harassers, not the victims. The people with poor character are the harassers, not the victims.

Why aren't you calling out those who are harassing and raping women, and getting away with it?
 
Do not equate "lady-like" with weak, please. I am most definitely a lady, always act lady-like, and I despise weakness. Strength of will and strength of character is what I respect. I would fight tooth and nail and certainly not take what ever a man wanted to dish out. Perhaps that's why I am still alone after all these decades!
 
Visbek said:
'kay

Walking into a hotel room, or into someone's home, does not mean that you've consented to any sexual activity whatsoever. While it may be rude to lead someone on and leave, it should absolutely be the right of anyone to revoke consent, pretty much at any time, and for any reason.

Calling women "prostitutes" ignores how in many cases these women don't have much of a choice. These are powerful people we're discussing here, and if you refuse to be nice to them, they can torch your entire career (or do much worse things) before it even gets started.

I mean, really. The NYPD had Weinstein on tape harassing a woman, and they didn't press charges.

A refusal to report harassment does make it harder for everyone else. At the same time, until literally six weeks ago, reporting harassment was almost guaranteed to ****-can your career, or at least your current job. Tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people have complained of sexual harassment, only to be ignored -- or worse yet, to face worse harassment.

Your moral disapproval here is clearly misguided. The people who are acting wrongly here are the harassers, not the victims. The people with poor character are the harassers, not the victims.

Why aren't you calling out those who are harassing and raping women, and getting away with it?
Click to expand...

I have called them out many times in both real and virtual life. I can also tell you that “surveys” taken in real life among women I know, for whatever subjective value that has, share my opinion on at least #1 and #2. And it will not stop until women stop it, of that we can be sure.
 
Visbek said:
'kay

Walking into a hotel room, or into someone's home, does not mean that you've consented to any sexual activity whatsoever. While it may be rude to lead someone on and leave, it should absolutely be the right of anyone to revoke consent, pretty much at any time, and for any reason.

Calling women "prostitutes" ignores how in many cases these women don't have much of a choice. These are powerful people we're discussing here, and if you refuse to be nice to them, they can torch your entire career (or do much worse things) before it even gets started.

I mean, really. The NYPD had Weinstein on tape harassing a woman, and they didn't press charges.

A refusal to report harassment does make it harder for everyone else. At the same time, until literally six weeks ago, reporting harassment was almost guaranteed to ****-can your career, or at least your current job. Tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people have complained of sexual harassment, only to be ignored -- or worse yet, to face worse harassment.

Your moral disapproval here is clearly misguided. The people who are acting wrongly here are the harassers, not the victims. The people with poor character are the harassers, not the victims.

Why aren't you calling out those who are harassing and raping women, and getting away with it?
Click to expand...

They DID have a choice. Their career or being degraded. They chose poorly. Note: I'm referring only to the actresses.
 
MaggieD said:
I have called them out many times in both real and virtual life. I can also tell you that “surveys” taken in real life among women I know, for whatever subjective value that has, share my opinion on at least #1 and #2. And it will not stop until women stop it, of that we can be sure.
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Sorry, but your "surveys" don't have much value. I know lots of women who would absolutely reject #1 and #2. Why am I supposed to believe you over them?

More to the point: How is a refusal to go to a hotel room going to stop someone who sexually assaults you in his private office? Or in your own office?

What are you supposed to do, when someone who can fire you or otherwise make your job hell approaches you out of the blue, and harasses or assaults you? When they are essentially indispensable, and you can be replaced tomorrow?

And you do understand that people have reported those who have harassed and assaulted for years, only to get nowhere -- or to be punished for it? That women were not believed for decades, when making claims about harassment and assault?

It's easy to talk big and cluck your tongue at people, when it isn't your job, your career, your reputation, your life that's on the line, and/or when we so quickly forget how it was only a few weeks ago that the accusers could be ignored. A little sympathy is in order.
 
MaggieD said:
  1. When someone invites you to his hotel room and makes an aggressive pass, remember... by accepting his invitation, you’ve halfway accepted his ticket to ride.
  2. When you are a wanna be starlet who doesn’t report aggressive unwanted advances from someone who can advance your career, you’ve become something close to a prostitute.
  3. When you don’t report sexual harassment in the workplace, you are betraying every other woman in the place.

Life isn’t easy. Some of the things our morals and character require us to do aren’t easy. But those tough things we’re often called on to do loudly speak the difference between the character we HAVE and the morals we like to THINK we have.

Just sayin’...

Let the bashing begin.
Click to expand...

No kidding. What are parents teaching their daughters these days anyway? I certainly taught mine the facts of life, including the facts of what is and is not proper courtship, well before she was allowed to go on dates. When a guy invites you to his hotel room, he doesn't necessarily have physical contact in mind, but unless you are certain it is specifically to deliver or pick up documents or whatever, if you don't want physical contact with the person, it is best to tell the guy you will meet him in the coffee shop or the bar or the lobby. When an older man asks you to go for a ride with him, the proper answer is to politely say no, I don't have time right now or whatever. It could be absolutely innocent but it also could absolutely not be so innocent.

If you are attacked in a parking garage, you fight off your assailant and scream your lungs out. You are far more likely to survive that way than if you submit to whatever he demands. If you are assaulted by somebody you know in the work place you have two options: resist and make it known in no uncertain terms that it isn't okay. Or submit in which case you trade your reputation, ethics, and dignity for a job/opportunity/raises/promotions, etc. And you should not be due any compensation for that later on when things go south for you. However much you don't want it, if you submit to unwanted sexual advances or go along with whatever inappropriate behavior, you have submitted, period.

And this is what we should be teaching our daughters as well as equipping them to do what they have to do to defend themselves.
 
holbritter said:
They DID have a choice. Their career or being degraded. They chose poorly. Note: I'm referring only to the actresses.
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How is either choice a good choice?

The women who did refuse Weinstein often suffered for it. So do many other women who faced that choice. Those who dodged the worst consequences of the harassment still knew that if they reported it, these powerful men could end their career.

So you tell me, what is the right choice here? Are you saying they should be fine with having their careers, reputations, lives destroyed by calling out those who harassed, assaulted or even raped them? Or should they have been fine with being degraded?
 
AlbqOwl said:
No kidding. What are parents teaching their daughters these days anyway? I certainly taught mine the facts of life, including the facts of what is and is not proper courtship, well before she was allowed to go on dates. When a guy invites you to his hotel room, he doesn't necessarily have physical contact in mind, but unless you are certain it is specifically to deliver or pick up documents or whatever, if you don't want physical contact with the person, it is best to tell the guy you will meet him in the coffee shop or the bar or the lobby. When an older man asks you to go for a ride with him, the proper answer is to politely say no, I don't have time right now or whatever. It could be absolutely innocent but it also could absolutely not be so innocent.

If you are attacked in a parking garage, you fight off your assailant and scream your lungs out. You are far more likely to survive that way than if you submit to whatever he demands. If you are assaulted by somebody you know in the work place you have two options: resist and make it known in no uncertain terms that it isn't okay. Or submit in which case you trade your reputation, ethics, and dignity for a job/opportunity/raises/promotions, etc. And you should not be due any compensation for that later on when things go south for you. However much you don't want it, if you submit to unwanted sexual advances or go along with whatever inappropriate behavior, you have submitted, period.

And this is what we should be teaching our daughters as well as equipping them to do what they have to do to defend themselves.
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Exactly. Again, we are living in a world all too berift of personal responsibility. Your post about the parking garage brought to mind something a homicide detective offered. Very badly paraphrase, “If someone is trying to abduct you, make your life and death stand right there. It will probably be your only opportunity.”

I was leaving a singles dance hosted at an upscale hotel in Oak Brook, Illinois. I had parked in their underground, and only, parking location. When I left, I left alone as I always went alone. As soon as I entered the garage, I saw a man all spiffed up in a business suit approaching the entrance. I asked him if he would be kind enough to walk me to my car. “Of course,” he said, “and it’s your lucky day. I’m just reporting to my night job as Head of Security.” So off we went. Me very happy. Him glad to be of assistance.

And then he said, as we walked along, “Of course, you realize that would be the perfect response for someone who meant you harm, right?”

Yikes! I got to my car, thanked him profusely and quickly locked my door. Know what? He was correct!

Next time I went, I asked at the front desk for a security escort. They were happy to oblige. I’m a quick learner!
 
MaggieD said:
Exactly. Again, we are living in a world all too berift of personal responsibility. Your post about the parking garage brought to mind something a homicide detective offered. Very badly paraphrase, “If someone is trying to abduct you, make your life and death stand right there. It will probably be your only opportunity.”
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^^ this is what I tell my nieces. And this:

I saw this broken down like this once:

100% raped/dead if they get you into car

50% chance they'll keep trying to get you into car if you scream/fight and call attention to them

25% chance they'll risk more noise and attention by shooting.

12% chance that they'll chase you or shoot you if you break free/run

6% chance that if they do shoot you as you run, the shot kills you (single shots rarely do) and you're no good to them dead anyway.

So their odds of success go down with everything you do to resist.

(I dont remember it exactly but that's the gist of it)
 
Visbek said:
'kay

Walking into a hotel room, or into someone's home, does not mean that you've consented to any sexual activity whatsoever. While it may be rude to lead someone on and leave, it should absolutely be the right of anyone to revoke consent, pretty much at any time, and for any reason.

Calling women "prostitutes" ignores how in many cases these women don't have much of a choice. These are powerful people we're discussing here, and if you refuse to be nice to them, they can torch your entire career (or do much worse things) before it even gets started.

I mean, really. The NYPD had Weinstein on tape harassing a woman, and they didn't press charges.

A refusal to report harassment does make it harder for everyone else. At the same time, until literally six weeks ago, reporting harassment was almost guaranteed to ****-can your career, or at least your current job. Tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people have complained of sexual harassment, only to be ignored -- or worse yet, to face worse harassment.

Your moral disapproval here is clearly misguided. The people who are acting wrongly here are the harassers, not the victims. The people with poor character are the harassers, not the victims.

Why aren't you calling out those who are harassing and raping women, and getting away with it?
Click to expand...

I actually think your response is misguided. When I read the comments...it is to criticizing or maybe critique the victims. There is a right and a wrong way to respond to sexual harassment. And being silent should be discouraged. Regardless.

And by that same token? I think there’s a right and a wrong way to teach somebody how to deal with incidents that may turn into rape? There are certain circumstances or behaviors that you can classify as risky. That does not make it your fault when somebody victimizes you . To put it simply, I am a lot less likely to have my **** stolen if I just lock the doors to my truck . And maybe we as a society should start encouraging people to “lock their doors“
 
Visbek said:
How is either choice a good choice?

The women who did refuse Weinstein often suffered for it. So do many other women who faced that choice. Those who dodged the worst consequences of the harassment still knew that if they reported it, these powerful men could end their career.

So you tell me, what is the right choice here? Are you saying they should be fine with having their careers, reputations, lives destroyed by calling out those who harassed, assaulted or even raped them? Or should they have been fine with being degraded?
Click to expand...

I didn't say either was a good choice did I? You said they had 'no choice'. Fact is, they had a choice.
 
MaggieD said:
  1. When someone invites you to his hotel room and makes an aggressive pass, remember... by accepting his invitation, you’ve halfway accepted his ticket to ride.
  2. When you are a wanna be starlet who doesn’t report aggressive unwanted advances from someone who can advance your career, you’ve become something close to a prostitute.
  3. When you don’t report sexual harassment in the workplace, you are betraying every other woman in the place.

Life isn’t easy. Some of the things our morals and character require us to do aren’t easy. But those tough things we’re often called on to do loudly speak the difference between the character we HAVE and the morals we like to THINK we have.

Just sayin’...

Let the bashing begin.
Click to expand...

So you're upset at women for not reporting sexual harassment? I hope things will change soon, and victims will be treated differently in the future. Instead they are typically treated with doubt and even accused of lying or bringing it on themselves. Under that condition, I would say anybody harassing women making allegations of sexual harassment are not doing victims any favors themselves. That's why women remain silent. We all need to learn something from what's happening in our society right now.
 
Lutherf said:
Maybe this is a dumb question but isn't it kind of common knowledge in adult circles that if someone who has been a bit flirty with you during the evening invites you to their hotel room (or home, or apartment, or the back seat of their car) they have interests that involve more than just the professional discussion that happened between the flirting? I mean, people know that, right?

If you choose to go to the room that's an implied "yes".
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Why?? Shouldn't we be able to say no at any time and no means no?? This is the problem with men - if a woman goes with you - you're hearing at worst a maybe. Or she can be convinced into a yes.
 
americanwoman said:
Maybe it's not so easy for some women as it seems to be for you.

And is this only for starlets or the scared 16 year old who might have been taken into the freezer by her 30 something year old manager and was too intimidated to say no and still felt like it was somehow their fault so they didn't say anything for fear someone would call them a liar? Are they prostitutes too Maggie? Some of the ladies in the workplace may not speak up and then some time passes and they don't want to hear **** like this about them, like they are too weak or somehow instigated it because they didn't speak up when it happened.

Truth me though, I am teaching my daughter to not put up with anything and say something and not be ashamed of something that is not her fault.
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For us (ahem) more mature women, we were taught to shush. Parents went to great lengths to protect their daughters - short of calling out the guy. The crazy things done to protect you from the family pervert.
 
TheGoverness said:
If any dude ever tries to take advantage of me, they will have a good kick to the balls.
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Open-handed slap delivers significant shock to the 'ol berries more than almost anything.
 
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