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The Confederate Flag

MaggieD said:
It's been used as a sign of intimidation by hate groups. One would think we would be sophisticated to see that simply because hate groups adopt it doesn't mean it's the common belief.

As for being deliberately naive, I love my family. They are kind and wonderful people. I judge their beliefs and honesty accordingly. And that's what every last one of the fifteen people told me...
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The original hate group that leveraged it that way was the confederacy with its Antebellum planter aristocracy, and I say that as a proud southerner mam.
 
Fenton Lum said:
The original hate group that leveraged it that way was the confederacy with its Antebellum planter aristocracy, and I say that as a proud southerner mam.
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That's interesting.

Who did they hate?
 
MaggieD said:
What a beautiful story, Perotista. Thank you for sharing it with us. And thank you for younand your family's dedication to the USA and all I know they and their families sacrificed for so doing. If you were next to me, Inwouldmgive you a hug.
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There have been many times I could have used that hug Maggie. Us old crusty retired military geezers aren't as crusty and harden as we like to show. I can remember when that flag was a symbol of rebellion, the rebel flag that was flown in the 60's by the don't trust anyone over 30 crowd. The symbol of rebellion from Authority. Times change and it does seem the younger folks attach a different meaning to that rebel flag. Reading some of the posts on this site, I have often wondered if it isn't the north that has begun re-fighting the civil war instead of the south. No need, they won.

What I have noticed is as time goes by, there is less and less licence plates and bumper stickers on cars and pickups showing the stars and bars. I haven't seen anyone fly a confederate flag in decades. Migration might have something to do with that. There are times I think there are more northerners living down here than native Georgians. Given time, without any ruckus, these symbols of the old confederacy are slowing evaporating and disappearing. Perhaps the best way is just to let that happen naturally.

You push a southerner, that will for sure get his hackles up. What he would take down on his own, he'll fight to keep it up only because someone is pushing him. That is in our blood.
 
MaggieD said:
I was in a tiny Kentucky town over the weekend visiting my southern family. They live in a town with 1300 people. Everybody knows everybody. I'd venture there's three times as many guns in town as people. Not a violent bone in their bodies... my large family, at least. Very little people on people crime. Very few black people.

I asked them as a group what the Confederatemflag meant to them. They weren't flying one. Didn't see any home flying one in their beautiful neighborhood. None on their cars. They all replied, "It's a representation of southern pride."

i live in suburban Chicago. That's what I've always believed the Confederate flag represented. I've asked at least a dozen friends, liberals and conservatives combined, and they never thought a New York Minute about the Confederate flag nor monuments of southern generals.

so now, amvery tiny minority has decided it represents racism. And our whole world is turned inside out. Not there, I might add. They largely ignore the hoopla this minority has begun.
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This shopworn bull**** yet again, eh? The Confederacy was grounded in white supremacy and racism. That is simple, undeniable reality. It's symbols and iconography represent white supremacy and racism. The mealy-mouthed rationalizations that the flag "is about history" or is "about heritage" or "about culture" fall apart in the bright light of the historical record.
i asked my 16-year-old second cousin what she was taught that the civil war was about. "States' rights," she said. "The right of states to decide for themselves what went ON in their states. And, in many of them, the straw that broke the camel's back was the Federal government abolishing slavery nationwide." That's what I was taught as well.
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Huh. You were both taught wrong. What are the odds?
My very intelligent young niece in Chicago, on the other hand, posted on Facebook that she almost got out of her car to confront the car stopped in front of her for having a Confederate flag bumper sticker on the left and an I Love Jesus sticker on the right. She suggested she'd let herself down by not doing so because the person driving was obviously a racist bigot. She thinks it's our DUTY to stop displaying the Confederate flag.
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There is no such duty, and your niece is asking for a lot of potential trouble in doing so.
Please explain to us your ideas about what is going on in this country right now. I think a whole bunch of idiots has coelesced around this movement, and we've gone stark raving mad.

Your thoughts?
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The only idiots are those who are willfully, gleefully pig-ignorant of history and who feel compelled to defend a culture of treason, slavery and losing.

Here, this might help you out: I'm a black daughter of the Confederacy, and this is how we should deal with all those General Lees - LA Times
 
Perotista said:
There have been many times I could have used that hug Maggie. Us old crusty retired military geezers aren't as crusty and harden as we like to show. I can remember when that flag was a symbol of rebellion, the rebel flag that was flown in the 60's by the don't trust anyone over 30 crowd. The symbol of rebellion from Authority. Times change and it does seem the younger folks attach a different meaning to that rebel flag. Reading some of the posts on this site, I have often wondered if it isn't the north that has begun re-fighting the civil war instead of the south. No need, they won.

What I have noticed is as time goes by, there is less and less licence plates and bumper stickers on cars and pickups showing the stars and bars. I haven't seen anyone fly a confederate flag in decades. Migration might have something to do with that. There are times I think there are more northerners living down here than native Georgians. Given time, without any ruckus, these symbols of the old confederacy are slowing evaporating and disappearing. Perhaps the best way is just to let that happen naturally.

You push a southerner, that will for sure get his hackles up. What he would take down on his own, he'll fight to keep it up only because someone is pushing him. That is in our blood.
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I completely believe that!
 
Tanngrisnir said:
This shopworn bull**** yet again, eh? The Confederacy was grounded in white supremacy and racism. That is simple, undeniable reality. It's symbols and iconography represent white supremacy and racism. The mealy-mouthed rationalizations that the flag "is about history" or is "about heritage" or "about culture" fall apart in the bright light of the historical record.

Huh. You were both taught wrong. What are the odds?

There is no such duty, and your niece is asking for a lot of potential trouble in doing so.

The only idiots are those who are willfully, gleefully pig-ignorant of history and who feel compelled to defend a culture of treason, slavery and losing.

Here, this might help you out: I'm a black daughter of the Confederacy, and this is how we should deal with all those General Lees - LA Times
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My cousin went to school in Kentucky. I'm Chicago born. I think that trumps your assumption.

I didn't click your link because dinner's ready. But where was this outrage a year or two ago?

Why are people who disagree with you pig-ignorant??
 
Fenton Lum said:
Sure, let's all speak for King to sort this out. No one can ever blot out america's ethnic cleansing of North America or it's enslavement of Africans that made it the economic powerhouse it is today. That's what it was all built on.
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So tell me Einstein...why weren't those things on his radar when he was fighting for equal rights? I'll tell you why...because in the grand scheme of things they were irrelevant, that's why...
 
MaggieD said:
My cousin went to school in Kentucky. I'm Chicago born. I think that trumps your assumption.
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So what? That just shows you both got equally instruction in American history.
I didn't click your link because dinner's ready. But where was this outrage a year or two ago?
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It was all still there.
 
Elvira said:
I live in SW VA and we see a lotta flags around here...it's considered part of the scenery so I think nothing of it...my beef with this whole mess is we've lived for over a hundred years with flags, statues, and monuments..no one complained...I can't help but wonder what MLK would say...my guess is he would think it's all a whole lotta ridiculous drama, all the while avoiding the important issues, since his focus was on equal rights, not in blotting out American history...
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American history isn't being 'blotted out'. Please stop pretending.
 
MaggieD said:
That's interesting.

Who did they hate?
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Who did "they"/we enslave, beat, lynch, segregate, Jim Crow, cut the feet off of if they ran, rape and enslave the resultant offspring of, deny the vote, bomb the children of in churches, deny education, etc.? I believe the term naïve was mentioned by another poster. Have a lovely evening.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
So what? That just shows you both got equally instruction in American history.

It was all still there.
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And now people are trying to teach us whites are racist. Follow the money. Who benefits from this crap? I'm not sure, but I think it's the gvmt. Again.
 
Elvira said:
So tell me Einstein...why weren't those things on his radar when he was fighting for equal rights? I'll tell you why...because in the grand scheme of things they were irrelevant, that's why...
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My guess is it's further down on your list when children are being bombed in churches, you have endless death threats as do your wife and children, and civil rights workers are being murdered sans any justice from the legal system.
 
MaggieD said:
And now people are trying to teach us whites are racist. Follow the money. Who benefits from this crap? I'm not sure, but I think it's the gvmt. Again.
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No, some folks just react that way, explore your own reaction. I'm white, and southern, don't see that at all.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
This shopworn bull**** yet again, eh? The Confederacy was grounded in white supremacy and racism. That is simple, undeniable reality. It's symbols and iconography represent white supremacy and racism. The mealy-mouthed rationalizations that the flag "is about history" or is "about heritage" or "about culture" fall apart in the bright light of the historical record.

Huh. You were both taught wrong. What are the odds?

There is no such duty, and your niece is asking for a lot of potential trouble in doing so.

The only idiots are those who are willfully, gleefully pig-ignorant of history and who feel compelled to defend a culture of treason, slavery and losing.

Here, this might help you out: I'm a black daughter of the Confederacy, and this is how we should deal with all those General Lees - LA Times
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The only person utterly clueless and ignorant of history is you. If you actually believe the Civil War had nothing to do with state's rights you have been taught by the most backwards, clueless Americans that just like to rewrite history.
 
MaggieD said:
And now people are trying to teach us whites are racist. Follow the money. Who benefits from this crap? I'm not sure, but I think it's the gvmt. Again.
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Well yeah, your power structure has always needed to keep the masses divided, goes all the way back to Bacon's Rebellion when the system saw black slaves and European indentured servants unite against the aristocracy. Scared the **** out of them, they were way outnumbered and reiforncements were months away by sea.
 
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MaggieD said:
And now people are trying to teach us whites are racist. Follow the money. Who benefits from this crap? I'm not sure, but I think it's the gvmt. Again.
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Who walks away with almost all of the Wealth we as Americans make today?

FOLLOW THE MONEY!

Like u said.

This is exactly like all that fighting we did about Abortion, it is a diversion set up by Little Finger types as they work to take what they want.

And we fall for it.

As America gets increasingly broken.
 
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ajn678 said:
The only person utterly clueless and ignorant of history is you. If you actually believe the Civil War had nothing to do with state's rights you have been taught by the most backwards, clueless Americans that just like to rewrite history.
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Yeah, some states wanted the right to enslave Africans. Sorry, just is.
 
Fenton Lum said:
Yeah, some states wanted the right to enslave Africans. Sorry, just is.
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No one is disagreeing that slavery was a major component of the Civil War. However, this bull**** rewriting of history that states only racist white people fought for the South strictly to enslave people is bull****.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
So what? That just shows you both got equally instruction in American history.

It was all still there.
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So what? That just shows you both got equally instruction in American history.

That was very standardized socialization.
 
ajn678 said:
No one is disagreeing that slavery was a major component of the Civil War. However, this bull**** rewriting of history that states only racist white people fought for the South strictly to enslave people is bull****.
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Yup, no one said that was the primary reason every southerner enlisted. Both can be true. Just like folks who go today, not all of them go to support the endless occupation and economic exploitation of foreign lands for corporate state access to the resources of others.
 
Fenton Lum said:
Yup, no one said that was the primary reason every southerner enlisted. Both can be true. Just like folks who go today, not all of them go to support the endless occupation and economic exploitation of foreign lands for corporate state access to the resources of others.
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No, Tan the attack and flee merchant did say that actually.
 
Fenton Lum said:
Your corporate state "job creator" class and Wall Street.
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Getting rich off the exploitation of labor, as if we have not seen that before but see we had once learned our lessons about that.

And now we do Generational Warfare too!

Arnt we just so darned PROGRESSED!
 
Elvira said:
I live in SW VA and we see a lotta flags around here...it's considered part of the scenery so I think nothing of it...my beef with this whole mess is we've lived for over a hundred years with flags, statues, and monuments..no one complained...I can't help but wonder what MLK would say...my guess is he would think it's all a whole lotta ridiculous drama, all the while avoiding the important issues, since his focus was on equal rights, not in blotting out American history...
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It's not about slavery, this anti-confederate controversy. It's about the Civil War, the worst disaster that ever happened to the USA. Over half a million Americans died, the most of any war and, percentage-wise, as if 6 or 7 million had died in WW2. Your country still hasn't healed from that disaster, 150+ years later, and might never heal. All that was brought down on your country by those leaders of the Confederacy who have been honoured and memorialized with statues and plaques and stuff named after them.
Those Confederate leaders were the worst thing that ever happened to the USA. It's baffling how any American could want them honoured.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Getting rich off the exploitation of labor, as if we have not seen that before but see we had once learned our lessons about that.

And now we do Generational Warfare too!

Arnt we just so darned PROGRESSED!
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Generational corporate welfare? Agreed. You cannot maintain a democracy without a functional middle class and now over half the population makes less than $30K per year. This is a half century trend, this rerigging of the economy, leave it unaddressed, it was never an accident, and it's gonna get bumpy out there. Watch.
 
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