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I owe you an apology...

Goshin

Goshin

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In a couple threads after the Charlottesville incident, I made some statements that pissed a lot of people off, about how stupid it was to be there at all after all the warnings.


I am sometimes far too blunt and fail to consider how people might take something I said.

On reflection, I wish I'd been more careful to NOT sound like it was HER fault, because it wasn't: it was the fault of the asshole that did the deed and
ran her over. I think it was DEEPLY unwise to be in that crowd given recent circumstances and all the warnings, but she didn't *deserve* to get run over.

I didn't convey that very well and since communication is largely sender-dependent, I guess that's on me. I should have expressed myself better.


I will assert as truth that being a victim doesn't make you automatically virtuous and magically deflect all criticism.... but in the raw aftermath of such an event,
I should have been more tactful in making my point, which was how unwise it was to be there at all.


I acknowledge that most of the criticism I drew over what I said was my own fault, for being far too blunt and not expressing myself clearly on some key points.


If I offended you, I apologize.

It was not Heather Heyer's fault she got run over, it was the fault of the jerk that did the deed. She did not deserve what happened to her. I regret if I sounded like I meant otherwise.
 
If it makes you feel any better I knew exactly what you meant.
 
Goshin said:
In a couple threads after the Charlottesville incident, I made some statements that pissed a lot of people off, about how stupid it was to be there at all after all the warnings.


I am sometimes far too blunt and fail to consider how people might take something I said.

On reflection, I wish I'd been more careful to NOT sound like it was HER fault, because it wasn't: it was the fault of the asshole that did the deed and
ran her over. I think it was DEEPLY unwise to be in that crowd given recent circumstances and all the warnings, but she didn't *deserve* to get run over.

I didn't convey that very well and since communication is largely sender-dependent, I guess that's on me. I should have expressed myself better.


I will assert as truth that being a victim doesn't make you automatically virtuous and magically deflect all criticism.... but in the raw aftermath of such an event,
I should have been more tactful in making my point, which was how unwise it was to be there at all.


I acknowledge that most of the criticism I drew over what I said was my own fault, for being far too blunt and not expressing myself clearly on some key points.


If I offended you, I apologize.

It was not Heather Heyer's fault she got run over, it was the fault of the jerk that did the deed. She did not deserve what happened to her. I regret if I sounded like I meant otherwise.
Click to expand...

As I said in another thread, cool! There have been many here since I have been involved that would not budge a bit in taking responsibility for a questionable post and walk it back as well as you have across multiple threads. We'll done, sir!


:applaud
 
One of this countries greatest treasures is the right to protest peacefully. Those who protest peacefully deserve protection by our legal system and our law enforcement.

Showing up with a Gun means your not interested in a bebate and you don't beleive the legal system or law enforcement can do their job. You'll will do both all by yourself, thank you very much.
 
You are one cool dude to apologize. Being humble is good. OTOH, being misunderstood is not necessarily your fault. Some people see polar bears in the Sahara if they want to, and there is no convincing them otherwise.
 
Rexedgar said:
As I said in another thread, cool! There have been many here since I have been involved that would not budge a bit in taking responsibility for a questionable post and walk it back as well as you have across multiple threads. We'll done, sir!


:applaud
Click to expand...



You helped me realize I'd stuck my foot in my mouth and had come across much more .... erm, badly... than I actually intended. Thanks for that.
 
Goshin said:
In a couple threads after the Charlottesville incident, I made some statements that pissed a lot of people off, about how stupid it was to be there at all after all the warnings.


I am sometimes far too blunt and fail to consider how people might take something I said.

On reflection, I wish I'd been more careful to NOT sound like it was HER fault, because it wasn't: it was the fault of the asshole that did the deed and
ran her over. I think it was DEEPLY unwise to be in that crowd given recent circumstances and all the warnings, but she didn't *deserve* to get run over.

I didn't convey that very well and since communication is largely sender-dependent, I guess that's on me. I should have expressed myself better.


I will assert as truth that being a victim doesn't make you automatically virtuous and magically deflect all criticism.... but in the raw aftermath of such an event,
I should have been more tactful in making my point, which was how unwise it was to be there at all.


I acknowledge that most of the criticism I drew over what I said was my own fault, for being far too blunt and not expressing myself clearly on some key points.


If I offended you, I apologize.

It was not Heather Heyer's fault she got run over, it was the fault of the jerk that did the deed. She did not deserve what happened to her. I regret if I sounded like I meant otherwise.
Click to expand...
Good post

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
Goshin said:
In a couple threads after the Charlottesville incident, I made some statements that pissed a lot of people off, about how stupid it was to be there at all after all the warnings.


I am sometimes far too blunt and fail to consider how people might take something I said.

On reflection, I wish I'd been more careful to NOT sound like it was HER fault, because it wasn't: it was the fault of the asshole that did the deed and
ran her over. I think it was DEEPLY unwise to be in that crowd given recent circumstances and all the warnings, but she didn't *deserve* to get run over.

I didn't convey that very well and since communication is largely sender-dependent, I guess that's on me. I should have expressed myself better.


I will assert as truth that being a victim doesn't make you automatically virtuous and magically deflect all criticism.... but in the raw aftermath of such an event,
I should have been more tactful in making my point, which was how unwise it was to be there at all.


I acknowledge that most of the criticism I drew over what I said was my own fault, for being far too blunt and not expressing myself clearly on some key points.


If I offended you, I apologize.

It was not Heather Heyer's fault she got run over, it was the fault of the jerk that did the deed. She did not deserve what happened to her. I regret if I sounded like I meant otherwise.
Click to expand...

Well we talked about it in a together in a post so you know i knew what you meant and was not offended but i liked your post anyway because its shows integrity which to many around here do not have.
 
it's getting all warm & wet in here so, take off all your clothes ........................

 
Harry Guerrilla said:
People should act in good faith, with those whom we know are not bad people.
Your apology is not necessary.

Bad faith politics is winning over to many people here.
Click to expand...



I felt that it was necessary. I didn't want people to think I *actually* thought it was her fault, rather than the killer's fault. I do think being there at all was a very bad call, but not to the point of actually blaming the victim rather than the perp.
 
Goshin said:
In a couple threads after the Charlottesville incident, I made some statements that pissed a lot of people off, about how stupid it was to be there at all after all the warnings.


I am sometimes far too blunt and fail to consider how people might take something I said.

On reflection, I wish I'd been more careful to NOT sound like it was HER fault, because it wasn't: it was the fault of the asshole that did the deed and
ran her over. I think it was DEEPLY unwise to be in that crowd given recent circumstances and all the warnings, but she didn't *deserve* to get run over.

I didn't convey that very well and since communication is largely sender-dependent, I guess that's on me. I should have expressed myself better.


I will assert as truth that being a victim doesn't make you automatically virtuous and magically deflect all criticism.... but in the raw aftermath of such an event,
I should have been more tactful in making my point, which was how unwise it was to be there at all.


I acknowledge that most of the criticism I drew over what I said was my own fault, for being far too blunt and not expressing myself clearly on some key points.


If I offended you, I apologize.

It was not Heather Heyer's fault she got run over, it was the fault of the jerk that did the deed. She did not deserve what happened to her. I regret if I sounded like I meant otherwise.
Click to expand...

Always the gentleman. And that's why we love you.
 
Goshin said:
I felt that it was necessary. I didn't want people to think I *actually* thought it was her fault, rather than the killer's fault. I do think being there at all was a very bad call, but not to the point of actually blaming the victim rather than the perp.
Click to expand...

I read your comments.
Never did I assume you meant that she deserved it.

Maybe it's just my bias, but to many right leaning/biased people have to go out of their way to apologize and strongly assert that they aren't nazis, racists, etc, to appease others.
It's just getting old, quickly.
 
MaggieD said:
Always the gentleman. And that's why we love you.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. Goshin has always been a top-notch, admirable person on this forum.
 
As the great great grandson of a Confederate soldier who died during that war , I have mixed feelings about this.

Like it or not it is part of our history. Don't think we need a Robert E Lee holiday but there should be museums with information about the war and soldiers.


The only thing that pisses me off is how in the hell did the Nazis get involved with the Confederacy? Hell , they might as well have the ISIS flag too. When you march with a Swastika you lose any sympathy from me what happens to you.
 
Goshin said:
In a couple threads after the Charlottesville incident, I made some statements that pissed a lot of people off, about how stupid it was to be there at all after all the warnings.


I am sometimes far too blunt and fail to consider how people might take something I said.

On reflection, I wish I'd been more careful to NOT sound like it was HER fault, because it wasn't: it was the fault of the asshole that did the deed and
ran her over. I think it was DEEPLY unwise to be in that crowd given recent circumstances and all the warnings, but she didn't *deserve* to get run over.

I didn't convey that very well and since communication is largely sender-dependent, I guess that's on me. I should have expressed myself better.


I will assert as truth that being a victim doesn't make you automatically virtuous and magically deflect all criticism.... but in the raw aftermath of such an event,
I should have been more tactful in making my point, which was how unwise it was to be there at all.


I acknowledge that most of the criticism I drew over what I said was my own fault, for being far too blunt and not expressing myself clearly on some key points.


If I offended you, I apologize.

It was not Heather Heyer's fault she got run over, it was the fault of the jerk that did the deed. She did not deserve what happened to her. I regret if I sounded like I meant otherwise.
Click to expand...

Well, if it's any consolation, I was not offended, nor did I think you were implying it was her fault that she got ran over.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I read your comments.
Never did I assume you meant that she deserved it.

Maybe it's just my bias, but to many right leaning/biased people have to go out of their way to apologize and strongly assert that they aren't nazis, racists, etc, to appease others.
It's just getting old, quickly.
Click to expand...



Agreed, and thank you.
 
Goshin said:
In a couple threads after the Charlottesville incident, I made some statements that pissed a lot of people off, about how stupid it was to be there at all after all the warnings.


I am sometimes far too blunt and fail to consider how people might take something I said.

On reflection, I wish I'd been more careful to NOT sound like it was HER fault, because it wasn't: it was the fault of the asshole that did the deed and
ran her over. I think it was DEEPLY unwise to be in that crowd given recent circumstances and all the warnings, but she didn't *deserve* to get run over.

I didn't convey that very well and since communication is largely sender-dependent, I guess that's on me. I should have expressed myself better.


I will assert as truth that being a victim doesn't make you automatically virtuous and magically deflect all criticism.... but in the raw aftermath of such an event,
I should have been more tactful in making my point, which was how unwise it was to be there at all.


I acknowledge that most of the criticism I drew over what I said was my own fault, for being far too blunt and not expressing myself clearly on some key points.


If I offended you, I apologize.

It was not Heather Heyer's fault she got run over, it was the fault of the jerk that did the deed. She did not deserve what happened to her. I regret if I sounded like I meant otherwise.
Click to expand...

Passionate and upsetting times, man, we all get twisted in here from time to time, takes a solid person to admit when it gets the best of them. You're alright.
 
Crosscheck said:
As the great great grandson of a Confederate soldier who died during that war , I have mixed feelings about this.

Like it or not it is part of our history. Don't think we need a Robert E Lee holiday but there should be museums with information about the war and soldiers.


The only thing that pisses me off is how in the hell did the Nazis get involved with the Confederacy? Hell , they might as well have the ISIS flag too. When you march with a Swastika you lose any sympathy from me what happens to you.
Click to expand...


The problem is what the history of the confederate flag, and how it was put to use. It wasn't the neo-natzi's that first adopted it, but the flag (which originally was the battle flag of Virginia btw) first started getting a lot of significance is when it was adopted by people protesting the civil rights movement in the 1950's... and was also adopted by the KKK.

There is one thing to want to remember our history.. in fact, it's very important we do. However, it is also important not to have our history coopted by people with a political agenda. Because of the use of the confederate flag for intimidation and it's adoption by the KKK as a symbol to intimidate minorities,.. it has associations for a number of groups. . It is just like the nazi symbol of the Swastika. For 1000's of years, it was the symbol of good fortune and luck, and there are cultures out there that it has religious significance. It will take a very long time for that symbol to no longer be associated with genocide and hate (if ever).

The same group that want to use the confederate flag to intimidate racial minorities also has the mind set of using the Nazi symbols to intimidate Jewish people.
 
Goshin said:
In a couple threads after the Charlottesville incident, I made some statements that pissed a lot of people off, about how stupid it was to be there at all after all the warnings.


I am sometimes far too blunt and fail to consider how people might take something I said.

On reflection, I wish I'd been more careful to NOT sound like it was HER fault, because it wasn't: it was the fault of the asshole that did the deed and
ran her over. I think it was DEEPLY unwise to be in that crowd given recent circumstances and all the warnings, but she didn't *deserve* to get run over.

I didn't convey that very well and since communication is largely sender-dependent, I guess that's on me. I should have expressed myself better.


I will assert as truth that being a victim doesn't make you automatically virtuous and magically deflect all criticism.... but in the raw aftermath of such an event,
I should have been more tactful in making my point, which was how unwise it was to be there at all.


I acknowledge that most of the criticism I drew over what I said was my own fault, for being far too blunt and not expressing myself clearly on some key points.


If I offended you, I apologize.

It was not Heather Heyer's fault she got run over, it was the fault of the jerk that did the deed. She did not deserve what happened to her. I regret if I sounded like I meant otherwise.
Click to expand...

I didn't see the offending post, but mad props for this thread.
 
Goshin said:
In a couple threads after the Charlottesville incident, I made some statements that pissed a lot of people off, about how stupid it was to be there at all after all the warnings.


I am sometimes far too blunt and fail to consider how people might take something I said.

On reflection, I wish I'd been more careful to NOT sound like it was HER fault, because it wasn't: it was the fault of the asshole that did the deed and
ran her over. I think it was DEEPLY unwise to be in that crowd given recent circumstances and all the warnings, but she didn't *deserve* to get run over.

I didn't convey that very well and since communication is largely sender-dependent, I guess that's on me. I should have expressed myself better.


I will assert as truth that being a victim doesn't make you automatically virtuous and magically deflect all criticism.... but in the raw aftermath of such an event,
I should have been more tactful in making my point, which was how unwise it was to be there at all.


I acknowledge that most of the criticism I drew over what I said was my own fault, for being far too blunt and not expressing myself clearly on some key points.


If I offended you, I apologize.

It was not Heather Heyer's fault she got run over, it was the fault of the jerk that did the deed. She did not deserve what happened to her. I regret if I sounded like I meant otherwise.
Click to expand...

As one of the first to take umbrage at what you said, I apologize for taking so long to respond to this. My thinking on this is complicated and I wanted to be sure I could get it stated right. I am still not 100 % confident of my ability, but I think I am ready to give it a shot.

First, you do not owe me, or any one really, an apology to my mind. I still disagree with your thinking(more on that shortly), but you did not harm me nor any one else with your comments. No harm, no apology needed if that makes sense.

I want to disagree, and disagree strongly with one of your central thesis' in your post. But I want to do it in a way that is not going to trigger more anger, more harsh words, more closed minds. And I am not always really good at expressing myself in ways that do not lead to those very things, so I ask your patients. This is the comment that I am going to disagree with:

I think it was DEEPLY unwise to be in that crowd given recent circumstances and all the warnings...
Click to expand...

That legitimately angers me and I want to explain why. If nazi's, KKKers, white supremacists come to my town, I will not be sitting at home, even if there is risk involved. I will not live in fear, I will not katybarr the door just because bad people are coming to town. I am going to stand up to them. I am going to do it nonviolently, but I am going to make sure my voice is heard. I want those bastards to know that they do not speak for me, my family nor my neighbors. They will not intimidate me. Where I live, we have different values than them. I do not think that is unwise. I think that our country was built on people willing to do just that, take a risk to make their voice heard. In fact, I think it is important to be willing to do just that.

There is, to the best of my knowledge, no evidence that Heather Heyer acted in any way inappropriately. I have not heard any one say she was part of any violence(I sometimes think people do not realize that most people in Charlottesville where not involved in any violence). She was simply out there, doing what she thought she should do, make her voice heard. I think she was aware that there was some risk involved, and she felt it was worth the risk. And I think that makes her a good citizen. It is easy to hide away when the bad people come. Heather Heyer chose a different path.
 
Redress said:
As one of the first to take umbrage at what you said, I apologize for taking so long to respond to this. My thinking on this is complicated and I wanted to be sure I could get it stated right. I am still not 100 % confident of my ability, but I think I am ready to give it a shot.

First, you do not owe me, or any one really, an apology to my mind. I still disagree with your thinking(more on that shortly), but you did not harm me nor any one else with your comments. No harm, no apology needed if that makes sense.

I want to disagree, and disagree strongly with one of your central thesis' in your post. But I want to do it in a way that is not going to trigger more anger, more harsh words, more closed minds. And I am not always really good at expressing myself in ways that do not lead to those very things, so I ask your patients. This is the comment that I am going to disagree with:



That legitimately angers me and I want to explain why. If nazi's, KKKers, white supremacists come to my town, I will not be sitting at home, even if there is risk involved. I will not live in fear, I will not katybarr the door just because bad people are coming to town. I am going to stand up to them. I am going to do it nonviolently, but I am going to make sure my voice is heard. I want those bastards to know that they do not speak for me, my family nor my neighbors. They will not intimidate me. Where I live, we have different values than them. I do not think that is unwise. I think that our country was built on people willing to do just that, take a risk to make their voice heard. In fact, I think it is important to be willing to do just that.

There is, to the best of my knowledge, no evidence that Heather Heyer acted in any way inappropriately. I have not heard any one say she was part of any violence(I sometimes think people do not realize that most people in Charlottesville where not involved in any violence). She was simply out there, doing what she thought she should do, make her voice heard. I think she was aware that there was some risk involved, and she felt it was worth the risk. And I think that makes her a good citizen. It is easy to hide away when the bad people come. Heather Heyer chose a different path.
Click to expand...

I think you accomplished perfectly what you set out to do. Further, I agree with you completely.
 
Redress said:
As one of the first to take umbrage at what you said, I apologize for taking so long to respond to this. My thinking on this is complicated and I wanted to be sure I could get it stated right. I am still not 100 % confident of my ability, but I think I am ready to give it a shot.

First, you do not owe me, or any one really, an apology to my mind. I still disagree with your thinking(more on that shortly), but you did not harm me nor any one else with your comments. No harm, no apology needed if that makes sense.

I want to disagree, and disagree strongly with one of your central thesis' in your post. But I want to do it in a way that is not going to trigger more anger, more harsh words, more closed minds. And I am not always really good at expressing myself in ways that do not lead to those very things, so I ask your patients. This is the comment that I am going to disagree with:



That legitimately angers me and I want to explain why. If nazi's, KKKers, white supremacists come to my town, I will not be sitting at home, even if there is risk involved. I will not live in fear, I will not katybarr the door just because bad people are coming to town. I am going to stand up to them. I am going to do it nonviolently, but I am going to make sure my voice is heard. I want those bastards to know that they do not speak for me, my family nor my neighbors. They will not intimidate me. Where I live, we have different values than them. I do not think that is unwise. I think that our country was built on people willing to do just that, take a risk to make their voice heard. In fact, I think it is important to be willing to do just that.

There is, to the best of my knowledge, no evidence that Heather Heyer acted in any way inappropriately. I have not heard any one say she was part of any violence(I sometimes think people do not realize that most people in Charlottesville where not involved in any violence). She was simply out there, doing what she thought she should do, make her voice heard. I think she was aware that there was some risk involved, and she felt it was worth the risk. And I think that makes her a good citizen. It is easy to hide away when the bad people come. Heather Heyer chose a different path.
Click to expand...


Thank you for your reply, and for keeping it civil.


I personally felt that this particular event had so many reports ahead of time of likely violence, from things said on both sides, and adding in the Governor's warning and plea for people to stay home, that the risk was far higher than normal for such things.

I also didn't feel that counter-protesting them was vitally important... they're a small fringe group and not a major threat to the country as a whole. I also feel ignoring them utterly would send an even better message of their irrelevance.

Given the rumors that Antifa would be there spoiling for a fight, I didn't feel that was a crowd I wanted to stand with; and I certainly had no interest in standing with Nazis and Klansmen.

There seemed to me to be little to be accomplished and much to be lost.

You don't feel that way.

Okay.

It is your call to make whether the risk is worth it, not mine.

When I first heard about the car plowing into the crowd, before I had any idea who was the driver and who were the victims, I thought "yeah, not really surprising something like that happened, glad no one I know went there."

That's where I was coming from.


We won't see eye to eye on this, no surprise.


But at any rate I apologized because I felt that I expressed myself poorly and was insensitively blunt by my own standards. I also wanted to clarify that I didn't think Heather Meyer *deserved* what happened to her, even if in my opinion being there was a bad call.
 
Redress said:
I want to disagree, and disagree strongly with one of your central thesis' in your post. But I want to do it in a way that is not going to trigger more anger, more harsh words, more closed minds. And I am not always really good at expressing myself in ways that do not lead to those very things, so I ask your patients. This is the comment that I am going to disagree with:

I think it was DEEPLY unwise to be in that crowd given recent circumstances and all the warnings...
Click to expand...

That legitimately angers me and I want to explain why. If nazi's, KKKers, white supremacists come to my town, I will not be sitting at home, even if there is risk involved. I will not live in fear, I will not katybarr the door just because bad people are coming to town. I am going to stand up to them. I am going to do it nonviolently, but I am going to make sure my voice is heard. I want those bastards to know that they do not speak for me, my family nor my neighbors. They will not intimidate me. Where I live, we have different values than them. I do not think that is unwise. I think that our country was built on people willing to do just that, take a risk to make their voice heard. In fact, I think it is important to be willing to do just that.
Click to expand...

This part especially. My thoughts exactly. I wish I could like this more than once.
 
Redress said:
As one of the first to take umbrage at what you said, I apologize for taking so long to respond to this. My thinking on this is complicated and I wanted to be sure I could get it stated right. I am still not 100 % confident of my ability, but I think I am ready to give it a shot.

First, you do not owe me, or any one really, an apology to my mind. I still disagree with your thinking(more on that shortly), but you did not harm me nor any one else with your comments. No harm, no apology needed if that makes sense.

I want to disagree, and disagree strongly with one of your central thesis' in your post. But I want to do it in a way that is not going to trigger more anger, more harsh words, more closed minds. And I am not always really good at expressing myself in ways that do not lead to those very things, so I ask your patients. This is the comment that I am going to disagree with:



That legitimately angers me and I want to explain why. If nazi's, KKKers, white supremacists come to my town, I will not be sitting at home, even if there is risk involved. I will not live in fear, I will not katybarr the door just because bad people are coming to town. I am going to stand up to them. I am going to do it nonviolently, but I am going to make sure my voice is heard. I want those bastards to know that they do not speak for me, my family nor my neighbors. They will not intimidate me. Where I live, we have different values than them. I do not think that is unwise. I think that our country was built on people willing to do just that, take a risk to make their voice heard. In fact, I think it is important to be willing to do just that.

There is, to the best of my knowledge, no evidence that Heather Heyer acted in any way inappropriately. I have not heard any one say she was part of any violence(I sometimes think people do not realize that most people in Charlottesville where not involved in any violence). She was simply out there, doing what she thought she should do, make her voice heard. I think she was aware that there was some risk involved, and she felt it was worth the risk. And I think that makes her a good citizen. It is easy to hide away when the bad people come. Heather Heyer chose a different path.
Click to expand...

To the bolded. I grew up on a college campus of a Division II school where my dad taught. I used to go to and actually be a part of the sports programs there as a kid and what you said there reminded me of a taunt that the students used to do at basketball games that I think would be hilarious to do at a KKK/supremacists parade. Before the game of course they call out the starters of the home team first one by one and that would happen to standing ovation thunderous applause for each an every one called. Then when the opposing team's starting lineup started getting called, they'd all IMMEDIATELY sit down and each of them had a newspaper they'd hold up in front of their face showing a sign of complete disinterest. I don't know why what you said jogged that memory but... that would be funny if all these people went to the parade and lined the sides and just sat down hiding their faces behind newspaper, not making a peep as they marched on by.

There were other taunts they did but that one was my favorite.
 
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