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Thinking about an MBA

TurtleDude said:
yeah note the willingness to work long hours. I think that is the main point about having excellent GPAs. I knew dozens of people at yale who were absolutely brilliant but didn't have phi beta kappa keys or summa degrees. and some people who did weren't brilliant but they were smart and they worked their asses off. and that is what the firms such as the one you cited, want.

BB tomorrow night
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Later.
 
SheWolf said:
Mostly tax
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If I were you and tired of the BS I would consider hanging your shingle out and be your own boss. Then you wont need the MBA unless you want it and you can fire your clients or have them pay confiscatory rates if you think they are a pain in the butt to deal with. Being your own boss has many benefits. Being a tax person you probably know all the deductions you can do for business and so understand the principle of spending your money BEFORE Uncle Sammy gets his grubby hands on it thereby controlling what you pay to him verses being an employee with far fewer deductions and Uncle getting his cut FIRST. There are downsides like having to find clients and stuff like that, but I find working for yourself after the first year or so a lot less stressful after you have got your system down.

I highly recommend looking into working for yourself. Everyone needs a good tax person accountant bookkeeper.

One more thing you will come to enjoy billing, its like printing money. :)
 
Winchester said:
Going to be a lot of tax practices for sale in the not too distant future with all the boomers retiring/getting ready to retire. I did 9 years with bigger firms before buying my own 19 years ago. Worth it to get out from top heavy (at the time) firms. Stressful at times, but I don't regret it. Would not go into auditing now days as a small practitioner. You're going to have to evaluate trading if trading one set of bosses for another is worth it if you move to industry. I did a short stint in the private sector, hated it worse than anything.
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Why buy a tax/accounting place when she can hang her shingle out? My sister in law has just moved into the Missoula Montana area from California and already she has people knocking on her door, and she hasn't even put her shingle out.
 
For those balancing an equation of cost, opportunity cost, current earnings and future earnings...

How does one quantify the personal growth, life skills, knowledge and understanding obtained in advanced education? What income should we account to becoming a better person?
 
TurtleDude said:
my niece is starting at 106K. I cannot fathom what someone right out of college can contribute that is worth that much but I guess I will learn. but the hours are brutal and she's part of a "team" that basically travels from client to client. Her typical work week-from what her father tells me is like this

Sunday evening-travel to client city. Monday-wed/Thursday, meet with client. Thursday-travel back to home office. Thursday-Friday-work on report for client. Saturday, prepare for trip to next client the following day.
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Ultimately, whether or not she contributes that much value isn't too relevant. As a consultant what's relevant is what she get's billed out at. I've been consulting since I graduated college for a few years ago now (on a similar schedule - burning out pretty hard at this point to be honest). If she's billed out at, say, $100/hr (which is along the lines of what I was billed out as when I first started) then as long as she's working 26 weeks/yr she's clearing her own salary for her firm.

At the end of the day, if she's sent out as part of a 3 or 4 person team, the client isn't going to question her billing rate. The firm sets the prices, the client pays. If she's billable for 26 weeks, taking workload off of her colleagues and, as someone else mentioned, can be retained as senior asset later, they're absolutely getting their money's worth. Not to mention, these companies work you hard. Big salaries, hotel living, comp'd training and meals and stuff are great but they certainly collect their pound of flesh. Best of luck to your niece.

Disclaimer: I've only seen the consulting industry from my side of the coin, I'm not super familiar with the mechanics of how the billing side of things works (whether teams are billed as a team or as individuals, whether all individuals of a team are billed equally etc etc). I'm kept pretty separate from that. What I've describes is simply how I've rationalized my own situation :thinking
 
SheWolf said:
Is anybody here an MBA?

Or does anybody have an opinion on the MBA?
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An MBA might open a few doors for you, but it is really only a plus on your resume if your goal is middle or upper management or you want to qualify for a SBA loan to start your own business, etc. But if that's your goal, it could be helpful. Otherwise there are other specialties that might help you be more employable.
 
Surrealistik said:
I'm not so sure it's compensation for value added/produced but compensation for potential (its retention) and of course the brutal work itinerary unless she's responsible for pulling in/maintaining big accounts/deals, in which case... why the **** indeed are they assigning someone fresh out of college to that?
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I think a lot of it is industry and location dependent. My cousin's daughter has one of those traveling jobs. She was paid $100k plus right out of college to visit hospitals all over the country to "manage" the installation of new information systems. She lives in and works out of Chicago, so that alone probably boosted pay by 20% right there.

From what I can tell, she does in medical what I used to do back in the good old days of Automotive: upsell. Client bought canned package for $X million. Canned package doesn't do what client wants, she convinces them they need a, b and c add-one for another $600k each.

We did that all the time before automakers began tightening up and putting restrictions on purchasing contracts. Nowadays, if what you sell GM or Ford or Honda does not do exactly what they want, you pay for the add-ons or you don't get paid at all. From what she tells me, medical still operates with an open check book.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Why buy a tax/accounting place when she can hang her shingle out? My sister in law has just moved into the Missoula Montana area from California and already she has people knocking on her door, and she hasn't even put her shingle out.
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One can certainly do that. There are plusses and minuses to each route though.

And how did you SIL manage to land herself in Missoula? If you give me her address I'll send her lots and lots of MSU Bobcat paraphernalia, she might not want to wear it around all those damn Griz though. :lol:
 
Nilly said:
I was considering going for an MBA hard last year. Did my GMAT, got my applications together, but decided not to at the last minute for a few reasons:

1. My employer decided they didn't want to pay for it.
2. The earning potential after an MBA wasn't a big enough improvement over my earning potential before. (I'm already in a technical field)
3. I didn't want to spend 2+ years on a degree that I was doing in a subject I didn't massively enjoy, but instead was just to simply further my career. I'm strongly considering a more technical postgrad now in a more related subject that I'm more passionate about.

I think one of the biggest pro's of an MBA is the network that you can build from it. I've heard from other people that the most valuable things they got out of it were not necessarily what they learnt in the lectures, but from being around business minded, entrepreneurial people. Simply wasn't worth the $60k+ outlay to me though.
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In the end, I chose the advanced technical degree because I felt it gave me more separation from the competition. MBA's really are a dime a dozen.

Now, of course, there is a huge advantage to getting an MBA from Harvard or Stanford, especially in networking and resume recognition. So, I'm not saying an MBA is worthless. Far from it. But, if you're just getting an advanced degree by attending part time at the local U, an MBA may not be a panacea. It's helpful, sure--it will certainly boost someone from staff engineering position to mid-level management overnight. So, don't get me wrong. But, IMO, if you already have an undergrad in tech field, like engineering or computer science, a master's in those disciplines is much more valuable and will do the exact same thing.
 
Winchester said:
One can certainly do that. There are plusses and minuses to each route though.

And how did you SIL manage to land herself in Missoula? If you give me her address I'll send her lots and lots of MSU Bobcat paraphernalia, she might not want to wear it around all those damn Griz though. :lol:
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:lamo. They have been camouflaging the fact they are from California by wearing Griz paraphernalia. Then again my SIL likes to be contrarian so just might wear MSU stuff. You never know with her.

Its a long story how and why they got to the Bitterroot but one of my sisters is married to a native and lives in the area already and its a lot like Tehachapi, CA except with less people. My sister and BIL have a long established business up there, and plenty of connections. Any who it was either that or the Houston TX area or Council Bluffs IA which also have family. I guess the others just didn't have quite the appeal. I am in the process of winding things up out here in California and will be headed up to the Bitterroot myself at the end of the year. My family is almost all native Californians but we are on an exodus out of the state.
 
PirateMk1 said:
:lamo. They have been camouflaging the fact they are from California by wearing Griz paraphernalia. Then again my SIL likes to be contrarian so just might wear MSU stuff. You never know with her.

Its a long story how and why they got to the Bitterroot but one of my sisters is married to a native and lives in the area already and its a lot like Tehachapi, CA except with less people. My sister and BIL have a long established business up there, and plenty of connections. Any who it was either that or the Houston TX area or Council Bluffs IA which also have family. I guess the others just didn't have quite the appeal. I am in the process of winding things up out here in California and will be headed up to the Bitterroot myself at the end of the year. My family is almost all native Californians but we are on an exodus out of the state.
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Yeah there are a lot of you... we need to build a damn wall. :2razz: Let me know when you get here, I ain't that far from the Bitterroot area and I'm looking for an excuse to hit the Draught Works brewery in Missoula.
 
calamity said:
I think a lot of it is industry and location dependent. My cousin's daughter has one of those traveling jobs. She was paid $100k plus right out of college to visit hospitals all over the country to "manage" the installation of new information systems. She lives in and works out of Chicago, so that alone probably boosted pay by 20% right there.

From what I can tell, she does in medical what I used to do back in the good old days of Automotive: upsell. Client bought canned package for $X million. Canned package doesn't do what client wants, she convinces them they need a, b and c add-one for another $600k each.

We did that all the time before automakers began tightening up and putting restrictions on purchasing contracts. Nowadays, if what you sell GM or Ford or Honda does not do exactly what they want, you pay for the add-ons or you don't get paid at all. From what she tells me, medical still operates with an open check book.
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It's definitely industry dependent; I can easily see someone in finance making that kind of money (or more) straight out of college if they have the track record to validate it in their own private trading. Likewise, I can see firms paying such a premium for someone who is obviously unique, exceptional and talented in some technical capacity (for example, mathematics/statistics, programming/computer science; exceptional quants get paid big bucks on Bay/Wall Street even direct from post-secondary). However a sales position where you're essentially fresh out of school and have no record at all? Not so much. Though I hear the argument that if said sales feature big stakes, they'd justify the pay, but as stated, you generally don't assign newbies to those accounts. Per TurtleDude, she seems to be working with a team in a learning capacity, and they're essentially paying to keep her around in light of her future potential.
 
calamity said:
I think a lot of it is industry and location dependent. My cousin's daughter has one of those traveling jobs. She was paid $100k plus right out of college to visit hospitals all over the country to "manage" the installation of new information systems. She lives in and works out of Chicago, so that alone probably boosted pay by 20% right there.

From what I can tell, she does in medical what I used to do back in the good old days of Automotive: upsell. Client bought canned package for $X million. Canned package doesn't do what client wants, she convinces them they need a, b and c add-one for another $600k each.

We did that all the time before automakers began tightening up and putting restrictions on purchasing contracts. Nowadays, if what you sell GM or Ford or Honda does not do exactly what they want, you pay for the add-ons or you don't get paid at all. From what she tells me, medical still operates with an open check book.
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Why would you sell someone something they cant use or don't need? Why would anyone buy it?
 
chromium said:
you clearly didn't go to a top 20 undergrad. Whining about the teacher i've only seen once, because the guy in his damn 80s kept losing focus. You don't think grad schools ever have a problem with old timers clinging to tenure? The big difference is a lot of PhDs choose a program based on certain professors they'll work on dissertation and research with, but you still can run across *some* instructors you don't care for

Also, in a typical MBA, there's absolutely filler classes that don't transfer well to the specific field of interest, and plenty of people are there just for $, obviously. Some firms even offer a raise upon completion. Not every grad school program exists for pure research and knowledge
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I know I don't want an MBA because I don't care about management or marketing. I would rather get a more focused master's like in just finance or risk management.

With an an MBA it looks like 1/3 of the stuff you're never going to use.
 
SheWolf said:
Is anybody here an MBA?

Or does anybody have an opinion on the MBA?
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Depends on why you want/need it. If you are not in a career field where it will help give you a bump, it is pointless. If you are, then go for it.
 
Nilly said:
I was considering going for an MBA hard last year. Did my GMAT, got my applications together, but decided not to at the last minute for a few reasons:

1. My employer decided they didn't want to pay for it.
2. The earning potential after an MBA wasn't a big enough improvement over my earning potential before. (I'm already in a technical field)
3. I didn't want to spend 2+ years on a degree that I was doing in a subject I didn't massively enjoy, but instead was just to simply further my career. I'm strongly considering a more technical postgrad now in a more related subject that I'm more passionate about.

I think one of the biggest pro's of an MBA is the network that you can build from it. I've heard from other people that the most valuable things they got out of it were not necessarily what they learnt in the lectures, but from being around business minded, entrepreneurial people. Simply wasn't worth the $60k+ outlay to me though.
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Have you decided what you want to do instead of an MBA? Have you weight the benefits and know it will be better than an MBA?
 
SheWolf said:
Have you decided what you want to do instead of an MBA? Have you weight the benefits and know it will be better than an MBA?
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I'm planning on doing a masters in data science. It's the logical step from my current job. I do think there's a little bit of a bubble right now but computer automation is a great field to be in. I do consider myself more of a people person and I definitely don't want to become a code monkey with no human interaction, that was one of my drivers for going for an MBA in the first place. It would have taken me in more of a management direction, but I've started managing teams recently and I'm not sure I'm as cut out for it. Too much drama.

My dad did an MBA in his early 30's and he sort of pushed me in that direction a little, but again, it's not something that I'm massively passionate about and I really feel that if you're going to do a postgrad it should be in something you genuinely enjoy.

I don't know it will be better than an MBA, and honestly if I did do an MBA it would give me a higher earnings ceiling. I did pretty well in my GMAT but I didn't hit the 700 that I wanted, and my undergrad application isn't super strong. My target schools were NYU/UCLA/MIT, which aren't the very top top but still very respectable (top 20 worldwide). Given my application I think I would need an outstanding essay etc to get into one of those schools, and given the fact that the network you acquire is one of the strongest pro's of an MBA, I didn't think I would see the return on investment from going to a weaker school from one of those, given my current situation.

Honestly my decision came down to a lot of different factors, my current situation and job, realistic school prospects and what I want to do with the rest of my life. If an employer would fund the MBA I would probably be much more inclined. When I said my current employer didn't decide to pay for it, that was basically because their terms were another 3 years at the company. A 2 year MBA + 3 years afterwards would put me at 30, and honestly there are things I want to do with my life in that time that didn't really fit into that plan. In one of my other posts I spoke about how I'm already burning out a bit from my current job, and I don't want to commit the next 5 years of my life to something that doesn't really suit me in order for the extra money per year, when I can still make very respectable amounts doing something that I think I would genuinely enjoy more.

Everyone's in a different situation at the end of the day but I hope that perspective helps a little :)
 
Also you may fish around for companies that are high-tech startups, something you feel has a place in today's market. Joining a startup can be a half-way point between own business and a 9-5. The other nice thing about it is that while you may hook up with a company that doesn't make it, being in finance you probably have the best heads-up about it (maybe even more than the other owners!), and the experience you get may again make it easier to start your own or do another startup. Wearing "all the hats" in a startup, and the passion, can really be a life changer for some (in a good way).
Starting and running a business well is surprisingly easy for anyone who works hard and is responsible. Making a profit, that's harder, but if you hedge your bets and try to plan on doing it before you take the plunge, you can mitigate a lot of the heavy risk.

Best thing is, look at all the reasonable responses...it's exciting to have options and think about big changes, scary and exciting. In some ways I kind of wish I got to do all that stuff again...not a do-over, I'm happy with how it turned out, but it was a lot of fun doing start-up and doing my own businesses.

PirateMk1 said:
If I were you and tired of the BS I would consider hanging your shingle out and be your own boss
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I hesitated to suggest that since I feel I over-suggest it, but it's always a real option. It's risky, but in something pretty established like personal accountant, probably not that bad. Sometimes people may be able to start that moonlighting, depending on their current contract/agreements, and if it's only for some months or a year, the double work isn't that bad, it's kind of exciting to lead a double life for a short time. Hardest part is taking the plunge.
 
ecofarm said:
Advanced education is always worthwhile. It provides experience with a variety of people, teamwork skills, presentation skills, critical thinking skills and many other benefits. It's not just about a piece of paper to increase wage, or prestige, or even knowledge in the field.
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As much as I would LIKE to agree with you...that is not the case. There are a few reasons NOT to get an advanced degree. And while it may seem self explanatory...a lot of people sadly don't know the reasons. Getting the degree and having no plan on how to use it is a waste of money. And for people who get that advanced degree and don't actually use it in their field either.

My girlfriend's mother got a master's in history before she became a nurse. And it cost her money. Where as I have family who got a doctorate and they used it in that career...it was well worth the debt they went into because eventually they got a career out of it and made more money over time. The debt didn't matter in the long run.

Short version? As long as you are using that degree...YES. It is not a waste of time. But some people didn't figure out that they wouldn't be using it.


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blackjack50 said:
As much as I would LIKE to agree with you...that is not the case. There are a few reasons NOT to get an advanced degree. And while it may seem self explanatory...a lot of people sadly don't know the reasons. Getting the degree and having no plan on how to use it is a waste of money. And for people who get that advanced degree and don't actually use it in their field either.

My girlfriend's mother got a master's in history before she became a nurse. And it cost her money. Where as I have family who got a doctorate and they used it in that career...it was well worth the debt they went into because eventually they got a career out of it and made more money over time. The debt didn't matter in the long run.

Short version? As long as you are using that degree...YES. It is not a waste of time. But some people didn't figure out that they wouldn't be using it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Many skills acquired transcend field. Your objection is kind of like "what good is math in real life?"

But I will note that passion is what makes it easy. Without passion for the subject, the kind of passion that doesn't end in 10 or even 50 years, I would recommend caution regarding entering a program.
 
ecofarm said:
Many skills acquired transcend field. Your objection is kind of like "what good is math in real life?"

But I will note that passion is what makes it easy. Without passion for the subject, the kind of passion that doesn't end in 10 or even 50 years, I would recommend caution regarding entering a program.
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That's mainly my point. Internet can and infinite knowledge can be gotten at the cost of a library card. A program may cost $20,000 or more. And while you may gain those skills...they may not matter in 10 years and you just spent $20,000.

If you love what you are doing...then the debt and the $20,000 is a wash. So it isn't something to be scared of. But sadly some people just float around from this to that collecting degrees and debt.


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blackjack50 said:
That's mainly my point. Internet can and infinite knowledge can be gotten at the cost of a library card. A program may cost $20,000 or more. And while you may gain those skills...they may not matter in 10 years and you just spent $20,000.
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Critical thinking skills, presentation skills, teamwork skills, source verification and many other skills that many here (not you, to my knowledge) could use help regarding transcend field and job. They help in everyday life.

If you love what you are doing...then the debt and the $20,000 is a wash. So it isn't something to be scared of. But sadly some people just float around from this to that collecting degrees and debt.
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I don't support floating around indefinitely, understanding and skills should be used. But those skills, and even understanding, can be applied in any field or job.

Grad school makes a person better, not better than other people but better themselves.
 
Nilly said:
I'm planning on doing a masters in data science. It's the logical step from my current job. I do think there's a little bit of a bubble right now but computer automation is a great field to be in. I do consider myself more of a people person and I definitely don't want to become a code monkey with no human interaction, that was one of my drivers for going for an MBA in the first place. It would have taken me in more of a management direction, but I've started managing teams recently and I'm not sure I'm as cut out for it. Too much drama.

My dad did an MBA in his early 30's and he sort of pushed me in that direction a little, but again, it's not something that I'm massively passionate about and I really feel that if you're going to do a postgrad it should be in something you genuinely enjoy.

I don't know it will be better than an MBA, and honestly if I did do an MBA it would give me a higher earnings ceiling. I did pretty well in my GMAT but I didn't hit the 700 that I wanted, and my undergrad application isn't super strong. My target schools were NYU/UCLA/MIT, which aren't the very top top but still very respectable (top 20 worldwide). Given my application I think I would need an outstanding essay etc to get into one of those schools, and given the fact that the network you acquire is one of the strongest pro's of an MBA, I didn't think I would see the return on investment from going to a weaker school from one of those, given my current situation.

Honestly my decision came down to a lot of different factors, my current situation and job, realistic school prospects and what I want to do with the rest of my life. If an employer would fund the MBA I would probably be much more inclined. When I said my current employer didn't decide to pay for it, that was basically because their terms were another 3 years at the company. A 2 year MBA + 3 years afterwards would put me at 30, and honestly there are things I want to do with my life in that time that didn't really fit into that plan. In one of my other posts I spoke about how I'm already burning out a bit from my current job, and I don't want to commit the next 5 years of my life to something that doesn't really suit me in order for the extra money per year, when I can still make very respectable amounts doing something that I think I would genuinely enjoy more.

Everyone's in a different situation at the end of the day but I hope that perspective helps a little :)
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Thanks, Nilly. I think we are in a little bit of the same situation. Feeling burned out and wanting to change our career track a little. I would have done the same as you if my current employer offered to pay for my MBA under those conditions. I also feel like I don't have the option of uprooting and moving to the East Coast or West Coast for some of the top MBA schools. We have some high raking universities where I live and not so high. I think I will most likely stay where I am at.

I don't really think that that would be a bad decision either, but I have only started thinking about this.

I know a lot of this is going to depend on my employer. I am interviewing with some places already. If they will pay for my MBA, I will do it. Even if I go to a local college. I feel it will help me no matter what.
 
SheWolf said:
Thanks, Nilly. I think we are in a little bit of the same situation. Feeling burned out and wanting to change our career track a little. I would have done the same as you if my current employer offered to pay for my MBA under those conditions. I also feel like I don't have the option of uprooting and moving to the East Coast or West Coast for some of the top MBA schools. We have some high raking universities where I live and not so high. I think I will most likely stay where I am at.

I don't really think that that would be a bad decision either, but I have only started thinking about this.

I know a lot of this is going to depend on my employer. I am interviewing with some places already. If they will pay for my MBA, I will do it. Even if I go to a local college. I feel it will help me no matter what.
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Just having it on your resume can open a lot of doors (although fewer than it used to I think - my dad and a few of his friends are very pro MBA but they got theirs in a different time really). I'm from the UK where university tuition is much much cheaper. An MBA would have been the most expensive purchase of my life by a long long way and once I actually got my head around the figure (when you talk about purchasing things in the 10's of thousands I don't think your brain really processes it well) I baulked.
 
Nilly said:
Just having it on your resume can open a lot of doors (although fewer than it used to I think - my dad and a few of his friends are very pro MBA but they got theirs in a different time really). I'm from the UK where university tuition is much much cheaper. An MBA would have been the most expensive purchase of my life by a long long way and once I actually got my head around the figure (when you talk about purchasing things in the 10's of thousands I don't think your brain really processes it well) I baulked.
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Do you have any advice about the GMAT? Did you use anything to study with? Was the exam easier or harder than expected?
 
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