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How would one prove that . . .

MaggieD said:
. . . ineligible people are voting?

It's always seemed so logical to me that people prove they are who they are, but the Left keeps telling us there is no evidence of voter fraud.

So I ask the Left especially -- how could voter fraud be investigated and how would one get proof that ineligible people are voting?
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First prove to me that the purple geese from mars are not trying to steal our souls...
 
Redress said:
Millions and millions of dollars have been spent. Voter rolls examined. Name, birthday, social security numbers compared. A literal handful is all the people with all that effort that have been found to vote illegally. There is, quite literally, no evidence to suggest that ineligible people are voting in any significant numbers.
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The very thorough Brennen Center Study is but one example of what you describe. And what they fid is teeny tiny and not at all any sort of problem that needs a solution.

What we have here is a BELIEF held by the right wing. And its achieving the status of one of their primary beliefs that defines them. And they are NOT going to give it up for the trivial reason that there is no evidence to support it.

We no longer live in the age of reason. We live in the ago of belief. Yesterday it was said that Trump believes what he believes. And Trump is the perfect example of this mental delusion that borders upon something far worse.
 
Red_Dave said:
First prove to me that the purple geese from mars are not trying to steal our souls...
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And what about the three inch high blue flame monkeys that play a version of basketball underneath the surface of Uranus? I cannot prove that they don't exist.
 
MaggieD said:
So in other words, the Left has no answer. And you like I just exactly that way.
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Maggie - you have not demonstrated there is any problem which needs an answer. Until you can do that - you really have nothing except a belief based on your need to believe in that belief and nothing else other than that belief.
 
Andalublue said:
Or in other words, widespread voter fraud is a myth, and one you cannot prove so you try to place the burden of proof onto someone else. That's very poor partisan hackery.
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How many Americans do you think are very pleased that Trump is launching a comprehensive investigation on it?

We'll see... And, honestly, for anyone to call it partisan hackery is just trying to shut down helpful dialogue. There is NOTHING partisan in the belief we ought to have to prove who we are to vote. In fact, While it is the right who clamors for voter I.D., it is the Democrats who demanded a recount in a number of states this past cycle. It is NOT partisan hackery. So when do posers pull the race card?? Or Facism?? Or tell us this is how it started in Nazi Germany??

Off the top of my head, didn't Al Gore want recounts and suspected fraud in Florida? And, of course, this election and Jill Whatever's claim. And now we have a President who WON who is going to open an investigation.

I say we should all sit back, relax and let the Justice Dept do it's job.
 
Gina said:
We've been voting by mail in Oregon since 2000. Voter fraud is rare:



Vote fraud is extremely rare and always unacceptable | OregonLive.com

That penalty is pretty severe.

And a more recent article:

Despite easy voter access, voter fraud deemed rare in Oregon - KTVZ
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I'm sure you noticed that the scenario I presented was not an illegal act but, rather, a manipulative act. While I certainly believe that fraudulent acts occur in the election system I, like you, don't believe that they are not endemic. For Donald Trump to be right about fraud accounting for the Clinton popular vote overage that would mean 1 in 20 Democrat votes was fraudulent while no Republican ones were. That scenario is HIGHLY unlikely.

My concern with mail in ballots is, as I said, the easy pathway to vote manipulation. That concern is coming from ground level as I have seen those effects in my district and seen evidence of the mechanism at work with my own eyes.
 
haymarket said:
Maggie - you have not demonstrated there is any problem which needs an answer. Until you can do that - you really have nothing except a belief based on your need to believe in that belief and nothing else other than that belief.
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One of the personality traits I have been soo fortunate to possess most of my adult life is to have faith in my beliefs. AND to be willing to change my mind on some of those long-held beliefs. It's not always political, of course. But on this site just yesterday, thanks by an excellent post on this thread, I have softened my stance on voter fraud. I now understand it is more than likely a series of anomalies rather than a conspiracy.

I am DELIGHTED that Donald Trump, the winner, is launching a comprehensive investigation into voter fraud. Sounds so much more pure than the last few accusations from losers... Al Gore and Florida and Jill Whatever and everywhere. And remember that even though they alleged fraud, they still don't want me to prove I'm Maggie to vote.

To others, not Mr. Haymarket, Feel free to bring on the OMG! HE'S NUTZ! dialogue. Ya'all are talking to yourselves.
 
MaggieD said:
One of the personality traits I have been soo fortunate to possess most of my adult life is to have faith in my beliefs. AND to be willing to change my mind on some of those long-held beliefs. It's not always political, of course. But on this site just yesterday, thanks by an excellent post on this thread, I have softened my stance on voter fraud. I now understand it is more than likely a series of anomalies rather than a conspiracy.

I am DELIGHTED that Donald Trump, the winner, is launching a comprehensive investigation into voter fraud. Sounds so much more pure than the last few accusations from losers... Al Gore and Florida and Jill Whatever and everywhere. And remember that even though they alleged fraud, they still don't want me to prove I'm Maggie to vote.

To others, not Mr. Haymarket, Feel free to bring on the OMG! HE'S NUTZ! dialogue. Ya'all are talking to yourselves.
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Taking to the American people actually young lady.
 
MaggieD said:
Huh? I don't understand.
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Sorry if I was not clear. My comment was to your end sentence

Ya'all are talking to yourselves.
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My line was to say we are talking to the American people - not just ourselves - although we are the American people also.

Thank you for letting me clear that up.
 
joG said:
Nope. I don't agree. Authoritarianism is a central position of statism to which liberalism of American definition must be counted. Conservatives more often work from an individualistic set of ideas.
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Not based on your theory that people must be controlled because they can't be trusted.
 
poweRob said:
Not based on your theory that people must be controlled because they can't be trusted.
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That isn't quite true. Distrust has less to do with political ideology than common sense. That is why checks and balances are helpful. Controlling is a necessary factor in avoiding evil done.
 
Last edited:
MaggieD said:
Theory?? What alternative universe do YOU live in? :lamo
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Perhaps his hypothesis then? Page 1 post #5

Redress said:
Millions and millions of dollars have been spent. Voter rolls examined. Name, birthday, social security numbers compared. A literal handful is all the people with all that effort that have been found to vote illegally. There is, quite literally, no evidence to suggest that ineligible people are voting in any significant numbers.
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joG said:
I think trust is bad and control is better.
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joG said:
That isn't quite true. Distrust has les to do with political ideology than common sense. That is why checks and balances are helpful. Controlling is a necessary factor in avoiding evil done.
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Everyone thinks that their ideology is that one that is common sense.
 
poweRob said:
Perhaps his hypothesis then? Page 1 post #5
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Well, honestly? That Redress post was to me. I posted back asking him to clarify how checking all of these things helped identify voter fraud and got no answer. ?

Whatever the context of JoG, I have to say that trust is earned individually. I believe in trust but verify.

Know what they call people who say, "Well, I trusted him." ? Litigants. ;)
 
MaggieD said:
You know, I think you e posted the best response. It resonates with me because when people talk about conspiracy theories re 9/11, the JFK assassination and others, I've firmly believed this kind of thing would be damned near impossible to keep secret.

So although you didn't answer my question,you've really made me think. You really have. Thank you.
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You're welcome!

Trump is now talking about a national investigation, so we'll see if that comes up with anything.
 
MaggieD said:
Well, honestly? That Redress post was to me. I posted back asking him to clarify how checking all of these things helped identify voter fraud and got no answer. ?

Whatever the context of JoG, I have to say that trust is earned individually. I believe in trust but verify.

Know what they call people who say, "Well, I trusted him." ? Litigants. ;)
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Well you have to lend a certain amount of trust from the get go else you'd never leave your house. I believe the base amount of trust should be fairly high until they prove untrustworthy for the most part and then they can either grow more trust from there or lose it all. I'm not saying hand your SS# to them to see if they will do right by you but... I think you can see where I'm going with this.

Unlike JoG... I think trust is good. I build all my relationships on it... be it love, friendship or work. If I've got trust with someone, we can build anything. If they burn that bridge of trust I've lent them, I cut ties and move on.
 
poweRob said:
Well you have to lend a certain amount of trust from the get go else you'd never leave your house. I believe the base amount of trust should be fairly high until they prove untrustworthy for the most part and then they can either grow more trust from there or lose it all. I'm not saying hand your SS# to them to see if they will do right by you but... I think you can see where I'm going with this.

Unlike JoG... I think trust is good. I build all my relationships on it... be it love, friendship or work. If I've got trust with someone, we can build anything. If they burn that bridge of trust I've lent them, I cut ties and move on.
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We mostly agree.

But do I trust the nameless, faceless American people to be trustworthy? No. I don't. There are way too many of us who will cheat and lie and steal to serve ourselves. Do people always report their income? Are there people on disability that aren't disabled? Do people collect unemployment and work under the table? Would you sell your car to a stranger and take his check? Not me. He gets my title, I get cash. Would you then trust he's going to re-register the car promptly? Not me. I take him to the currency exchange and we do it together. Do you rent out investment property without running a credit check? Would you lend $500 to a stranger expecting it back?

I trust my inner circle to the ends of the earth. Or, as you say, they aren't in my inner circle. Do I trust that the American people as a group always do the right thing when they think no one is looking? No, I don't.
 
MaggieD said:
We mostly agree.

But do I trust the nameless, faceless American people to be trustworthy? No. I don't. There are way too many of us who will cheat and lie and steal to serve ourselves. Do people always report their income? Are there people on disability that aren't disabled? Do people collect unemployment and work under the table? Would you sell your car to a stranger and take his check? Not me. He gets my title, I get cash. Would you then trust he's going to re-register the car promptly? Not me. I take him to the currency exchange and we do it together. Do you rent out investment property without running a credit check? Would you lend $500 to a stranger expecting it back?

I trust my inner circle to the ends of the earth. Or, as you say, they aren't in my inner circle. Do I trust that the American people as a group always do the right thing when they think no one is looking? No, I don't.
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Well then I disagree with you on the American people. Yes, some people skim and scam. But I think if you don't trust, those people become even less trustworthy. Because, what do they have to lose with you? IMO, most people are good people.
 
poweRob said:
Well then I disagree with you on the American people. Yes, some people skim and scam. But I think if you don't trust, those people become even less trustworthy. Because, what do they have to lose with you? IMO, most people are good people.
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I didn't say most people were not good people. They are.

Edit... so those things I listed you are comfortable doing? And you don't think people cheat on their income tax, claim disability under false pretenses, work under the table on unemployment? You actually didn't address me post at all.
 
MaggieD said:
I didn't say most people were not good people. They are.

Edit... so those things I listed you are comfortable doing? And you don't think people cheat on their income tax, claim disability under false pretenses, work under the table on unemployment? You actually didn't address me post at all.
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Oh on those, I definitely think there is a trust but verify rule that needs to be in place. Usually though when I debate conservatives, they use the excuse that people can't be trusted not to cheat the system, to advocate destroying that system altogether. SS, Medicare, Mecaid, Welfare. These and yours are where I'd like to trust them, but follow up and verify that things are getting done correctly. And if you burned that trust, you lose that benny.
 
There's been a ****ton of investigations, a heaping, hopping bowlful done - many by GOPpers trying to prove it (as well as independent investigations). In many court cases and elsewhere. When the results are in, they find when it comes to hard evidence, they are forced to conclude actual voter fraud is...very rare.

Back when the GOP had control of every branch, and highly motivated to prove cases of fraud, pursued it aggressively and with the tools to determine if there was...what were the results?

[h=3]In 5-Year Effort, Scant Evidence of Voter Fraud [/h]APRIL 12, 2007 WASHINGTON, — Five years after the Bush administration began a crackdown on voter fraud, the Justice Department has turned up virtually no evidence of any organized effort to skew federal elections, according to court records and interviews.

<snip>
The Justice Department stand is backed by Republican Party and White House officials, including Karl Rove, the president’s chief political adviser. The White House has acknowledged that he relayed Republican complaints to President Bush and the Justice Department that some prosecutors were not attacking voter fraud vigorously. In speeches, Mr. Rove often mentions fraud accusations and warns of tainted elections.
<snip>

The Republican National Committee and its state organizations supported the push, repeatedly calling for a crackdown. In what would become a pattern, Republican officials and lawmakers in a number of states, including Florida, New Mexico, Pennsylvania and Washington, made accusations of widespread abuse, often involving thousands of votes.
In swing states, including Ohio and Wisconsin, party leaders conducted inquiries to find people who may have voted improperly and prodded officials to act on their findings.
But the party officials and lawmakers were often disappointed. The accusations led to relatively few cases, and a significant number resulted in acquittals."
 
MaggieD said:
How many Americans do you think are very pleased that Trump is launching a comprehensive investigation on it?
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~10%

We'll see... And, honestly, for anyone to call it partisan hackery is just trying to shut down helpful dialogue.
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Debating a myth is not what I'd call 'helpful dialogue'.
There is NOTHING partisan in the belief we ought to have to prove who we are to vote.
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That's not what we are discussing. We're discussing whether widespread voter fraud actually happens. Related, but emphatically not the same thing.

In fact, While it is the right who clamors for voter I.D., it is the Democrats who demanded a recount in a number of states this past cycle. It is NOT partisan hackery. So when do posers pull the race card?? Or Facism?? Or tell us this is how it started in Nazi Germany??
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The only person I've heard pull the Nazi card in recent months is Donnie J. He's done a lot more than once.

Off the top of my head, didn't Al Gore want recounts and suspected fraud in Florida?
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Not that I'm aware of, and I'm no fan of the Dems btw. I'm certainly not a Hillary fan. "Well, the Dems did it" is a terrible response.

And now we have a President who WON who is going to open an investigation.
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For two reasons: a) He's pissed he lost the popular vote - feels it undermines his authority; and b) It gives him an excuse to suppress voting amongst non-white/non-English-speaking electorate.

I say we should all sit back, relax and let the Justice Dept do it's job.
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Oh, I doubt Donnie J has any intention of letting that happen.
 
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