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Who's To Blame for ACA Repeal Fail?

calamity said:
Trump wants to blame Mitch. But, let's face it, it ain't Mitch's fault the repeal went down the toilet. Actually, if you ask me, the GOP never intended to repeal ACA, it was all just a ploy...and, that includes Don Cheeto.

If Don wanted to really repeal Obamacare, he would have worked it. Instead, he went golfing and tweeted out insults from the clubhouse.
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Honestly? The people.

Republicans have gotten further than this in the recent past, and it was only Obama's veto that stopped them. They failed because enough people realized there would be no Obama veto this time, and they told their politicians that they were gonna lose their cushy government gig if they repealed it.

That's what it came down to. Americans finally got off their butts and succeeded in protecting something they care about, and that most of them believe is better than what they had before, or the crappy alternative the Republicans proposed, even if all of us can agree it's imperfect.

Good work, guys. We're finally awake. Jesus, finally.
 
calamity said:
Trump wants to blame Mitch. But, let's face it, it ain't Mitch's fault the repeal went down the toilet. Actually, if you ask me, the GOP never intended to repeal ACA, it was all just a ploy...and, that includes Don Cheeto.

If Don wanted to really repeal Obamacare, he would have worked it. Instead, he went golfing and tweeted out insults from the clubhouse.
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All of them are to blame. Trump and the GOP are extremely incompetent, though I agree that none of them really ever wanted to repeal it. The whole "repeal and replace Obamacare" was just political ammunition used by the GOP against the Democrats, nothing more.
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Chomsky said:
Thanks for the great post.

It's accurate, and I agree with pretty much everything.

And your assessment of pushing the hobbled initial bill (ACA) through, to fix and refine it later, is dead-on. Also not having the public option, along with the SC ruling against the mandatory Medicaid expansion, were significant impediments. I do believe the Dems saw this as the beginning movement to a single-payer system, even if a hybrid one.

But the wild card will be if the GOP decide to work with the Dems to stabilize and improve the ACA. Even if thought to be only temporary. That's the only way it will survive. Otherwise it will die a painful miserable death, with the only question being upon which party's neck will the albatross hang?
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Exactly. Any temporary fix by this GOP congress won't be temporary. It will also mean a defacto acceptance of the ACA by the GOP. I too think one of the reasons for the rush, rush on the ACA was to get it through the leading to single payer and government run healthcare by the Democrats.

What surprised me about the SCOTUS ruling was all along the Democrats and Obama swore up and down that the fees, penalties etc. wasn't a tax. Then the SCOTUS ruled that it was a tax and thus constitutional. Go figure.
 
Perotista said:
Exactly. Any temporary fix by this GOP congress won't be temporary. It will also mean a defacto acceptance of the ACA by the GOP. I too think one of the reasons for the rush, rush on the ACA was to get it through the leading to single payer and government run healthcare by the Democrats.

What surprised me about the SCOTUS ruling was all along the Democrats and Obama swore up and down that the fees, penalties etc. wasn't a tax. Then the SCOTUS ruled that it was a tax and thus constitutional. Go figure.
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CJ Roberts made that (constitutional under the 16A) claim but the other justices split 4/4 based on the commerce clause. The bottom line is that the SCOTUS invented a new federal power to tax income based on how it was not later spent. The federal mandate to purchase a private good/service (or maybe face a tax penalty) is clearly an abuse of federal power. The 16A makes absolutely no mention of using taxation as a penalty for not properly spending one's income and, unfortunately, did not even mandate that taxation be uniform for a given income level - the introduction of a 'negative tax credit' (for politically incorrect shopping habits?) could have dire consequences.
 
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Actually, the ACA repeal debacle is a wonderful lesson in political gamesmanship and deception. The GOP never intended to repeal Obamacare. Their only aim was to give the impression that they would repeal it if they were put in charge. That game began in 2010, even before ACA went into effect. Every single GOPer has run his campaign on repealing Obamacare ever since.

Well, they are in charge now. And, guess what? Still no repeal.

The best part was the political theater of the other night, "Oh we fell one vote short." lol..of course that one vote was from the guy with brain cancer who will probably never run again. Foiled by the Maverick wasn't an act of heroism. It was a planned moment to kill the bill, something agreed upon hours beforehand by a dozen or so Senators who wanted the bill killed but had too much at stake to vote against it.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
CJ Roberts made that (constitutional under the 16A) claim but the other justices split 4/4 based on the commerce clause. The bottom line is that the SCOTUS invented a new federal power to tax income based on how it was not later spent. The federal mandate to purchase a private good/service (or maybe face a tax penalty) is clearly an abuse of federal power. The 16A makes absolutely no mention of using taxation as a penalty for not properly spending one's income and, unfortunately, did not even mandate that taxation be uniform for a given income level - the introduction of a 'negative tax credit' (for politically incorrect shopping habits?) could have dire consequences.
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I agree.
 
Perotista said:
I agree.
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Not many folks seem to understand that the CJ Roberts "logic" would permit taxing some folks more for not buying/owning high efficiency appliances/vehicles or personal solar/wind generation equipment.

That "some" above is an important point - cleverly include a "hardship exemption" (loophole?) to make the new "tax penalty" apply only to "the wealthy" (but redefine them as being the non-poor to widen the pool to include the middle class).
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Not many folks seem to understand that the CJ Roberts "logic" would permit taxing some folks more for not buying/owning high efficiency appliances/vehicles or personal solar/wind generation equipment.

That "some" above is an important point - cleverly include a "hardship exemption" (loophole?) to make the new "tax penalty" apply only to "the wealthy" (but redefine them as being the non-poor to widen the pool to include the middle class).
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When the 10th amendment ceased to having meaning, that left all the power to the federal government. The federal government isn't limited anymore to what its authorized to do, Article I, section 8. What it isn't authorized to do, Article I, section 9. Without the recognition of the 10th amendment which retained the powers not mentioned or prohibited to the states or the people by Article I, section 10. The federal government has become omni powerful and the SCOTUS has gone along with that.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Not many folks seem to understand that the CJ Roberts "logic" would permit taxing some folks more for not buying/owning high efficiency appliances/vehicles or personal solar/wind generation equipment.

That "some" above is an important point - cleverly include a "hardship exemption" (loophole?) to make the new "tax penalty" apply only to "the wealthy" (but redefine them as being the non-poor to widen the pool to include the middle class).
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We already do that. We tax people who rent more than those who buy a house. We tax those who marry less than those who just "live together." We tax people with an HSA less than we do those who do not; ditto 401K. And, the most obvious of all, we tax people without children far more than we do those who have them.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Honestly? The people.

Republicans have gotten further than this in the recent past, and it was only Obama's veto that stopped them. They failed because enough people realized there would be no Obama veto this time, and they told their politicians that they were gonna lose their cushy government gig if they repealed it.

That's what it came down to. Americans finally got off their butts and succeeded in protecting something they care about, and that most of them believe is better than what they had before, or the crappy alternative the Republicans proposed, even if all of us can agree it's imperfect.

Good work, guys. We're finally awake. Jesus, finally.
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Agreed. The sheer unpopularity of the GOP's garbage bills (approval in the teens, disapproval above 60%? I didn't even think that was possible in the current polarized era) shows people on both sides were plugged in on this issue and nearly everyone recognized the GOP's legislation for what it was.
 
Perotista said:
When the 10th amendment ceased to having meaning, that left all the power to the federal government. The federal government isn't limited anymore to what its authorized to do, Article I, section 8. What it isn't authorized to do, Article I, section 9. Without the recognition of the 10th amendment which retained the powers not mentioned or prohibited to the states or the people by Article I, section 10. The federal government has become omni powerful and the SCOTUS has gone along with that.
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Yep, judges that have strong (honest?) 10 views would never get nominated for SCOTUS positions much less approved by the very congress critters that they might limit the power of.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yep, judges that have strong (honest?) 10 views would never get nominated for SCOTUS positions much less approved by the very congress critters that they might limit the power of.
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Exactly.
 
calamity said:
We already do that. We tax people who rent more than those who buy a house. We tax those who marry less than those who just "live together." We tax people with an HSA less than we do those who do not; ditto 401K. And, the most obvious of all, we tax people without children far more than we do those who have them.
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That is close to the truth but there is a clear difference in rewarding "good" spending and penalizing failure to spend "properly". Why not simply up the deduction for medical expenses if that was "good" spending (after all, we now let employers deduct 100% of it)? The fact is that PPACA lowered the deduction for medical care expenses (from excluding 7.5% of AGI to excluding 10% of AGI for medical care spending). Did medical care expenses become less "good" under PPACA?

You seem to view income as being the property of the government and thus they allow "good" acting folks to keep more of it. I view income as belonging to those that earned it and feel that income taxation should not be based upon how or upon who it was later spent.
 
Perotista said:
When you try to replace something that was bad with something horrible, it deserves to be defeated. Whose fault is it? The one's who write this horrible piece of legislation in the first place. Remember, it was promised to replace Obamacare with something better, not worst. Trump is ignorant to the workings of congress. He is letting that show.
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Pero, I'm pretty sure I've explained this to you before. You keep starting from the point that Obamacare is bad. The fact that the people who told you for 7 years they could do better failed so spectacularly is precisely because Obamacare is not bad. And blaming Trump's ignorance of how congress works really explains nothing. What knowledge would help trump get an Obamacare replacement out of congress? Oh, that's right, you're still ignoring the fact that republicans lied to you for 7 years.

Perotista said:
Yeah, I noticed that. My take, it took the Republicans and their AHCA which was totally worst that the ACA itself to make the ACA popular. If it weren't for the Republicans and their ever how many plans they came up with, worse plans. The ACA would still be unpopular as ever. But thanks to the GOP, the ACA is at its height of popularity.
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How is it possible you continue to ignore that Obamacare is popular precisely because its an improvement over the republican plan of "status quo". Just think how much more popular it would be if your conservative masters stopped lying about it and sabotaging it. I'm pretty sure we've discussed this also
 
Perotista said:
Exactly. Any temporary fix by this GOP congress won't be temporary. It will also mean a defacto acceptance of the ACA by the GOP. I too think one of the reasons for the rush, rush on the ACA was to get it through the leading to single payer and government run healthcare by the Democrats.
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And there it is. the unifying conservative theory of Obamacare. You happily believe every lie about Obamacare and obediently ignore the facts because you know its really a secret path to single payer. Take a step back from your "theory" and try looking at the fact that 20 million people gained coverage thanks to Obamacare, that it made employer sponsored coverage the law, and that Trump and republicans keep undermining it. Nothing in reality backs up your "theory".
 
Vern said:
Pero, I'm pretty sure I've explained this to you before. You keep starting from the point that Obamacare is bad. The fact that the people who told you for 7 years they could do better failed so spectacularly is precisely because Obamacare is not bad. And blaming Trump's ignorance of how congress works really explains nothing. What knowledge would help trump get an Obamacare replacement out of congress? Oh, that's right, you're still ignoring the fact that republicans lied to you for 7 years.



How is it possible you continue to ignore that Obamacare is popular precisely because its an improvement over the republican plan of "status quo". Just think how much more popular it would be if your conservative masters stopped lying about it and sabotaging it. I'm pretty sure we've discussed this also
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Exactly, what it took is a horrendous Republican plan many times as bad as the ACA. That is exactly what it took to turn a 40-50 favor/oppose of the ACA at the beginning of January 2017 into a 47-42 favor/oppose using RCP averages or the latest YOUGOV poll showing 50/43 favor/oppose as 2 August 2017. One has to wonder if the Republicans drop healthcare completely and once the AHCA is out of the picture if the favor/oppose numbers will revert to pre Republican plan numbers.

Time will tell. But for most of this year I was on your side in saying that the Republican AHCA, any version should be defeated. Whether you noticed that or not, only you know. That the ACA is better than any version of the AHCA. Now if the AHCA disappears entirely I will be very interested in seeing how the numbers change for the ACA if they do. I suspect they will revert once the immediate danger of the Republican AHCA is gone and dead.

I am as I have been all along anti-ACA, but this year more anti-AHCA than anti-ACA. One without any political party telling them where to stand on an issue can be that. Just like last year, I was anti Trump and anti Clinton voting third party. I'll not let a political party be the boss of me. I'll pick and choose what candidates I like and where I stand on the issues one at a time regardless of where the two major political parties tell me what my stance should be.
 
Vern said:
And there it is. the unifying conservative theory of Obamacare. You happily believe every lie about Obamacare and obediently ignore the facts because you know its really a secret path to single payer. Take a step back from your "theory" and try looking at the fact that 20 million people gained coverage thanks to Obamacare, that it made employer sponsored coverage the law, and that Trump and republicans keep undermining it. Nothing in reality backs up your "theory".
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I wish you would take a step back and view last year Gallup polls which were showing the ACA help 18% and hurt 29% of all Americans. I say last year because I haven't been able to find a more recent help/hurt polls. But I find it hard to be for something that hurts more people than it helps. Ignoring that fact while pushing the ACA seems to be against the old medical adage of doing no harm.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/195383/americans-negative-positive-aca.aspx

So I'll wait and see. What is, is. Nothing I can do about one way or the other except yak about on sites like this anyway.
 
Perotista said:
Exactly, what it took is a horrendous Republican plan many times as bad as the ACA. That is exactly what it took to turn a 40-50 favor/oppose of the ACA at the beginning of January 2017 into a 47-42 favor/oppose using RCP averages or the latest YOUGOV poll showing 50/43 favor/oppose as 2 August 2017. One has to wonder if the Republicans drop healthcare completely and once the AHCA is out of the picture if the favor/oppose numbers will revert to pre Republican plan numbers.

Time will tell. But for most of this year I was on your side in saying that the Republican AHCA, any version should be defeated. Whether you noticed that or not, only you know. That the ACA is better than any version of the AHCA. Now if the AHCA disappears entirely I will be very interested in seeing how the numbers change for the ACA if they do. I suspect they will revert once the immediate danger of the Republican AHCA is gone and dead.
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Instead of believing "AHCA sucks worse than Obamacare" to explain the recent poll numbers, maybe, just maybe people are starting to realize that republicans have lied to them for 7 years and maybe, just maybe Obamacare is a vast improvement over the republican plan of "status quo". I don't have to ignore any facts to believe that. You have to ignore the non-stop lies from the right for your theory.

I am as I have been all along anti-ACA, but this year more anti-AHCA than anti-ACA. One without any political party telling them where to stand on an issue can be that. Just like last year, I was anti Trump and anti Clinton voting third party. I'll not let a political party be the boss of me. I'll pick and choose what candidates I like and where I stand on the issues one at a time regardless of where the two major political parties tell me what my stance should be.
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that's just it, a political party is telling half the country to obediently hate Obamacare. The other half is just believing the facts. And for a guy with no political party you seem to have the conservative narratives concerning Obamacare down pat. And this is key, those narratives require you to ignore the facts and the non-stop lies from the right.
 
Perotista said:
I wish you would take a step back and view last year Gallup polls which were showing the ACA help 18% and hurt 29% of all Americans. I say last year because I haven't been able to find a more recent help/hurt polls. But I find it hard to be for something that hurts more people than it helps. Ignoring that fact while pushing the ACA seems to be against the old medical adage of doing no harm.

More Americans Negative Than Positive About ACA | Gallup

So I'll wait and see. What is, is. Nothing I can do about one way or the other except yak about on sites like this anyway.
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Like I've explained to you already, I'll care what a poll says when republicans stop lying about Obamacare. And don't sell yourself short, in addition to "yakking" about it you also refuse to acknowledge the actual facts of Obamacare and the non-stop lies from the right. So you're putting more effort into the conservative narratives than you give yourself credit for. Here's an idea since you dont mind "yakking", please explain how you think Obamacare hurt 29% of all Americans? I think a lot of those people still fret about the death panels. Oh and here's how Obamacare helped all Americans, its slowed healthcare inflation, improved the quality of care and lowers the deficit. Giving 20 million people healthcare may not help all of America but it definitely helped those 20 million.
 
Perotista said:
Exactly, what it took is a horrendous Republican plan many times as bad as the ACA. That is exactly what it took to turn a 40-50 favor/oppose of the ACA at the beginning of January 2017 into a 47-42 favor/oppose using RCP averages or the latest YOUGOV poll showing 50/43 favor/oppose as 2 August 2017. One has to wonder if the Republicans drop healthcare completely and once the AHCA is out of the picture if the favor/oppose numbers will revert to pre Republican plan numbers.

Time will tell. But for most of this year I was on your side in saying that the Republican AHCA, any version should be defeated. Whether you noticed that or not, only you know. That the ACA is better than any version of the AHCA. Now if the AHCA disappears entirely I will be very interested in seeing how the numbers change for the ACA if they do. I suspect they will revert once the immediate danger of the Republican AHCA is gone and dead.

I am as I have been all along anti-ACA, but this year more anti-AHCA than anti-ACA. One without any political party telling them where to stand on an issue can be that. Just like last year, I was anti Trump and anti Clinton voting third party. I'll not let a political party be the boss of me. I'll pick and choose what candidates I like and where I stand on the issues one at a time regardless of where the two major political parties tell me what my stance should be.
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What is not adequately discussed was why the republicant "plan" was so much worse. In order to appease the "moderate" republicants then all federal subsides had to be kept at (or above?) PPACA levels for the (15?) states that chose to expand Medicaid. Keep in mind that Medicaid is the most extreme (worst case?) scenario as far as government subsidized care is concerned - to the point that no co-pay or deductiblle is expected by the patient at all (except for the bizzare concept of incuring a debt to one's estate).

In other words, to fully fund 100% of the cost of medical care for a few (the approx. 15% to 18% of the US population below 134% of the FPL) places the most burden on others (the "rich" taxpayers) and leaves the least to help anyone that did not "qualify" for Medicaid (those making 134% to 400% of the FPL) but did "qualify" for PPACA subsidies. Once you have decided that you "must" keep expanded Medicaid and that you "must" cut the total subsidy cost (born by "rich" taxpayers) then that leaves only one group to "screw over" - those making 134% to 400% of the FPL.

Distribution of Total Population by Federal Poverty Level | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation
 
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calamity said:
Trump wants to blame Mitch. But, let's face it, it ain't Mitch's fault the repeal went down the toilet. Actually, if you ask me, the GOP never intended to repeal ACA, it was all just a ploy...and, that includes Don Cheeto.

If Don wanted to really repeal Obamacare, he would have worked it. Instead, he went golfing and tweeted out insults from the clubhouse.
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The fault lies 100% with congressional republicans. They have run on repealing Obamacare for 7 years and were able to put repeal legislation on Obamas desk--knowing he would veto it. Now that they have a president who will sign that same legislation, they cant pass it. Trump would have signed whatever they passed. They passed nothing, so the fault is theirs, not his.
 
Vern said:
Instead of believing "AHCA sucks worse than Obamacare" to explain the recent poll numbers, maybe, just maybe people are starting to realize that republicans have lied to them for 7 years and maybe, just maybe Obamacare is a vast improvement over the republican plan of "status quo". I don't have to ignore any facts to believe that. You have to ignore the non-stop lies from the right for your theory.



that's just it, a political party is telling half the country to obediently hate Obamacare. The other half is just believing the facts. And for a guy with no political party you seem to have the conservative narratives concerning Obamacare down pat. And this is key, those narratives require you to ignore the facts and the non-stop lies from the right.
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I cited the numbers pre-Republican AHCA and the numbers after. Either believe the numbers or don't. That is entirely up to you. What I usually do is throw out what Republicans and Democrats think. Go with only independents as most Republicans and Democrats have been brainwashed by their party. Whether the legislation is good or bad, the party which proposed it will always be in favor, the party which didn't, always be against. It is as simple as that.

At the beginning of the year only 39% of all independents, non-affiliated with either political party approved or were in favor of the ACA, 45% against, opposed. After the Republican's introduced the various version's of their AHCA, the non-affiliated, independent minded folks approval rose to 42%, disapprove or against dropped to 39% with the rest undecided, not sure.

There's been only one thing to get these independents, those not being told what to think by a political party to switch from most opposed to most in favor. Although not by much, 3 points. That was the introduction of the AHCA by the Republicans which was worst than the ACA.

Either believe the number or not, I really don't care. We've been through this way too many times. You believe the what the DNC tells you, I'll make up my own mind.
 
Vern said:
Like I've explained to you already, I'll care what a poll says when republicans stop lying about Obamacare. And don't sell yourself short, in addition to "yakking" about it you also refuse to acknowledge the actual facts of Obamacare and the non-stop lies from the right. So you're putting more effort into the conservative narratives than you give yourself credit for. Here's an idea since you dont mind "yakking", please explain how you think Obamacare hurt 29% of all Americans? I think a lot of those people still fret about the death panels. Oh and here's how Obamacare helped all Americans, its slowed healthcare inflation, improved the quality of care and lowers the deficit. Giving 20 million people healthcare may not help all of America but it definitely helped those 20 million.
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Keep ignoring the 29% hurt by the ACA and focus on the 18% helped. Enough is enough. You're blinded by your party and don't pay attention to those without a political party, who are independent enough to be able to make up their own mind. Not being told what to think.
 
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