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This is why Obamacare has to die

ObamacareFail said:
VA Healthcare is a benefit of having served in the military. Medicare, I have paid into since the age of 16. I am now 63. While Medicare is a friggen mess, I have been paying for it through payroll deductions for 47 years.
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No you have been paying for Part A, the other parts such as the 80/20 coverage you have not been.
 
The path to affordable Health Care is not a complicated one.

It begins with redesigning the VA's administration, digitizing records, updating systems. And greatly expanding it's infrastructure. What does fixing the VA have to do with private health care you ask?

Well private hospitals, and even non profit hospitals rake in more profit than big oil. They, as a rule, markup their prices 600-1000 percent in expectation of insurance companies wanting to negotiate for large groups. No one questions the pricing, for reasons I can not fathom.

By fixing and expanding the VA, which does not price fix, we can establish what the cost of care actually is. With that we can reign in the private sectors prices. We have found ourselves in a situation where our demand is so necessary we accept the supply without question. The fact is, someone making minimum wage should be able to easily afford insurance if the prices of hospitals actually reflected the cost.

And no I'm not saying doctors are greedy, they in fact are getting a ****ty deal. Are underpaid, understaffed, and overworked. Hospital shareholders and administrators are making billions. And I am aware of a hospitals "charitable" side, which usually is just a fraction of a percent of their profits.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
The path to affordable Health Care is not a complicated one.

It begins with redesigning the VA's administration, digitizing records, updating systems. And greatly expanding it's infrastructure. What does fixing the VA have to do with private health care you ask?

Well private hospitals, and even non profit hospitals rake in more profit than big oil. They, as a rule, markup their prices 600-1000 percent in expectation of insurance companies wanting to negotiate for large groups. No one questions the pricing, for reasons I can not fathom.

By fixing and expanding the VA, which does not price fix, we can establish what the cost of care actually is. With that we can reign in the private sectors prices. We have found ourselves in a situation where our demand is so necessary we accept the supply without question. The fact is, someone making minimum wage should be able to easily afford insurance if the prices of hospitals actually reflected the cost.

And no I'm not saying doctors are greedy, they in fact are getting a ****ty deal. Are underpaid, understaffed, and overworked. Hospital shareholders and administrators are making billions. And I am aware of a hospitals "charitable" side, which usually is just a fraction of a percent of their profits.
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I thought hospitals jacked up their prices because by law they have to treat the uninsured. A few years ago, hospitals were closing like crazy because they couldn't afford to keep treating the uninsured even if they passed the cost onto the already insured.

The VA..in spite of it's problems and glitches at a few locations...is still a success story and proof that government healthcare works. I don't think my Dad would be alive today if not for the VA.
 
Crovax said:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/cancer-s...obamacare-but-it-saved-my-life-152558221.html

This ****ing moron was to stupid to buy health insurance got cancer was saved by the tax payer and now loves Obamacare. Yeah no **** you love it when the govt cleans up your personal mistakes. This is the type on mentality that will destroy this country. Yes everyone should have healthcare and we should help those who can't afford it but paying for idiots who chose to be idiots is a step too far.
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if we replace it with universal health care that we all pay for with are taxes then sure
 
Paperview said:
Greedy asshole.


"I was a Republican and I worked for the Reagan and Bush campaigns," Jeff Jeans of Sedona, Arizona, told Speaker Ryan. "Just like you, I was opposed to the Affordable Care Act."

"When it was passed, I told my wife we would close our business before I complied with this law. Then, at 49, I was given six weeks to live with a very curable type of cancer. We offered three times the cost of my treatments, which was rejected. They required an insurance card. Thanks to the Affordable Care Act, I'm standing here today alive," Jeans shared with the Speaker and the audience.

"Being both a small business person and someone with pre-existing conditions, I rely on the Affordable Care Act to be able to purchase my own insurance. Why would you repeal the Affordable Care Act without a replacement?" he asked.
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I call bull on this story. There is no hospital or doctor that would refuse to treat someone who is paying for it themselves.
 
Moot said:
I thought hospitals jacked up their prices because by law they have to treat the uninsured. A few years ago, hospitals were closing like crazy because they couldn't afford to keep treating the uninsured even if they passed the cost onto the already insured.
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Hospitals closing in the US, has mostly been because of not big enough profit margin in the area. The key words here is profit margin. Also it creates a lack of supply, which means the hospitals and insurance companies can jack up prices even more.

Also hospitals jack up prices depending on what insurance company they are in bed with. When the consumer only sees their part payment and not the full amount, then the cartel between hospitals and insurance companies can jack up the prices. Oh look I only paid 200 dollars, but the real price was 4000, and that cost will come in increased monthly/yearly contributions by the consumer. Now was the real cost 4000 dollars? Most likely not, but that is the arranged price. That is why you can have hospitals demanding 90k for a simple operation and 20 miles down the road the same operation can be gotten for 4k.

The lack of transparency and cartel formation by the insurance companies and hospitals are driving up prices.

A good example on this behavior is Coca Cola and the price difference between Denmark and Germany. This was before and after the Euro in Germany. If you take away all taxes, then the price of Coca Cola in Denmark is considerably higher than in Germany. Why? Because Coca Cola can get away with it, because the lack of transparency and information. No one does the conversion math or removes the taxes aspect to compare the prices, so no one bitches about it. There is absolutely no reason that Coca Cola should cost more in Denmark than in Germany.

I believe before Obamacare, it was normal for bills to be unspecific when covered by insurance companies. Now they have to specify I believe. Blaming rising costs on uninsured, pre-existing conditions, black people, martians or Muslims, is just .. idiotic. The real blame is with how the whole system is utterly corrupt and out of control. The "free market" model has failed badly in this case and 30k+ people are dying each year.. but they dont matter cause they are poor!
 
PeteEU said:
Hospitals closing in the US, has mostly been because of not big enough profit margin in the area. The key words here is profit margin. Also it creates a lack of supply, which means the hospitals and insurance companies can jack up prices even more.

Also hospitals jack up prices depending on what insurance company they are in bed with. When the consumer only sees their part payment and not the full amount, then the cartel between hospitals and insurance companies can jack up the prices. Oh look I only paid 200 dollars, but the real price was 4000, and that cost will come in increased monthly/yearly contributions by the consumer. Now was the real cost 4000 dollars? Most likely not, but that is the arranged price. That is why you can have hospitals demanding 90k for a simple operation and 20 miles down the road the same operation can be gotten for 4k.

The lack of transparency and cartel formation by the insurance companies and hospitals are driving up prices.

A good example on this behavior is Coca Cola and the price difference between Denmark and Germany. This was before and after the Euro in Germany. If you take away all taxes, then the price of Coca Cola in Denmark is considerably higher than in Germany. Why? Because Coca Cola can get away with it, because the lack of transparency and information. No one does the conversion math or removes the taxes aspect to compare the prices, so no one bitches about it. There is absolutely no reason that Coca Cola should cost more in Denmark than in Germany.

I believe before Obamacare, it was normal for bills to be unspecific when covered by insurance companies. Now they have to specify I believe. Blaming rising costs on uninsured, pre-existing conditions, black people, martians or Muslims, is just .. idiotic. The real blame is with how the whole system is utterly corrupt and out of control. The "free market" model has failed badly in this case and 30k+ people are dying each year.. but they dont matter cause they are poor!
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The consumer has.. at least in the last 3 decades seen the full amount when it comes to healthcare.

And of course the real "cost" is not 4000 dollars.. if it was.. hospitals would not generated revenue for other things.

Secondly.. because its a prearranged price.. that's one of the reasons that prices are different in different hospitals since it depends on the negotiated prices. So while in one hospital.. that surgery is 90k.. and down the street its 4k (more than a bit of exaggeration on your part but I will go with it).

The aspirin in the first hospital is .39 cents.. while the aspirin in the hospital down the street is 10 dollars. It has to do with the payment schedules of the various insurances and how they have to bill according to that payment system.
 
holbritter said:
I call bull on this story. There is no hospital or doctor that would refuse to treat someone who is paying for it themselves.
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Well, it is a republican making the claim so yes, he’s probably lying. We’ve seen at this forum how conservatives tend to embellish false claims to make them “more believable” so we got his “they refused 3 times the cost” story.

So I think this story shows the need for mandates. Getting rid of "free riders" gaming the system is why republicans came up with mandates in the first place. What do you think it shows?
 
Moot said:
I thought hospitals jacked up their prices because by law they have to treat the uninsured. A few years ago, hospitals were closing like crazy because they couldn't afford to keep treating the uninsured even if they passed the cost onto the already insured.

The VA..in spite of it's problems and glitches at a few locations...is still a success story and proof that government healthcare works. I don't think my Dad would be alive today if not for the VA.
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They can write off the cost of the uninsured, it's why they don't pay taxes. Seriously. And the actual costs they incur for an insured person before markup is actually negligible. They can, however write off the marked up price.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
They can write off the cost of the uninsured, it's why they don't pay taxes. Seriously. And the actual costs they incur for an insured person before markup is actually negligible. They can, however write off the marked up price.
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They don't pay taxes because they are non profit. if they are a for profit they pay taxes. If they are on a cash basis.. they can't write off the cost of uninsured. If they are on an accrual basis then they can "write of the cost of uninsured".. but that's only because they include providing care to the uninsured as revenue.. (in other words expecting to get paid).. and if they don't get paid. then they write that off. It doesn't give them a tax credit.

And the actual costs of unpaid for care is rather high.. and to be sustainable.. that cost has to be passed on to those that do pay.. i.e. the insured.
 
Hari Seldon said:
That was why the ACA forced everyone to get insurance because you will need it some day and everyone should have to contribute. Just like auto insurance.
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I do not agree the government should force anyone to buy insurance.
I am not forced to buy auto insurance so that is lie.
I believe health care should be provided for all citizens. Unfortunately there needs to be a limit on what is covered. If you want 10's of millions of dollars worth of cancer treatment then you need to get a supplemental policy. Logically everyone cannot receive unlimited financial health care unless we pay in an unlimited amount of money.
 
jaeger19 said:
They don't pay taxes because they are non profit. if they are a for profit they pay taxes. If they are on a cash basis.. they can't write off the cost of uninsured. If they are on an accrual basis then they can "write of the cost of uninsured".. but that's only because they include providing care to the uninsured as revenue.. (in other words expecting to get paid).. and if they don't get paid. then they write that off. It doesn't give them a tax credit.

And the actual costs of unpaid for care is rather high.. and to be sustainable.. that cost has to be passed on to those that do pay.. i.e. the insured.
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It's not so cut and dry, and there is no such thing as a non-profit hospital. They can in fact write off the uninsured as charity care, and have loopholes built into the tax code specifically for them.

And just because I made the claim earlier that the ones truly profiting is management and not the doctors. Here is this on how CEO pay has no correlation with performance, yet they are paid very well.

But what do I know, I only work for a multi-billion dollar insurance company in a position that deals directly with hospitals across the country. It's not like I don't spend a great deal of time arguing with billing departments and leveraging these people.

And here is a time article on it as well.

But I'm sure you are right, I mean, I bet you did a google search on hospital tax policy and everything.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
It's not so cut and dry, and there is no such thing as a non-profit hospital. They can in fact write off the uninsured as charity care, and have loopholes built into the tax code specifically for them.

And just because I made the claim earlier that the ones truly profiting is management and not the doctors. Here is this on how CEO pay has no correlation with performance, yet they are paid very well.

But what do I know, I only work for a multi-billion dollar insurance company in a position that deals directly with hospitals across the country. It's not like I don't spend a great deal of time arguing with billing departments and leveraging these people.

And here is a time article on it as well.

But I'm sure you are right, I mean, I bet you did a google search on hospital tax policy and everything.
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Yeah no.

The tax code is pretty cut and dried. You don't seem to understand what "write off uninsured as charity care" means.. it doesn't actually help their bottom line.

And but what do I know.. I only own a number of medical facilities who provide that charity care,.,, and have been upper administration in one of the largest hospital networks on the east coast if not America. But hey, I bet you did a google search on hospital finances and how they handle taxes and everything.

I know exactly how our taxes work and what expense unpaid bills from the uninsured or underinsured are.. and have seen the research on it. Oh.. but you have a times article.
 
What is your thought about the story in the O.P.? It does not sound plausible to me. In my experience hospitals were happy to accommodate self-paying uninsured patients. They charged self pay people many times the amount they would receive from insurance cos. for the same procedure. For people who were cash strapped, the hospitals asked uninsured patients to schedule a payment plan. Typically, the terms were very generous. I don't know if this is currently true but this fella claims he offered 3 times the stated cost of care and was declined? Sounds odd to me.
 
PeteEU said:
Hospitals closing in the US, has mostly been because of not big enough profit margin in the area. The key words here is profit margin.
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Citation needed.

Also hospitals jack up prices depending on what insurance company they are in bed with.
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This is a rhetoric-heavy way to describe networking. Federal law did nothing to try to prevent networking. Predicting what would happen to health care and insurance costs if networking were to cease existing is not easy, but some would argue that prices would only increase, probably dramatically and quickly, if there were suddenly no networking allowed.

The lack of transparency and cartel formation by the insurance companies and hospitals are driving up prices.
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I am opposed to cartels of any and every kind, but you'd have to do more to demonstrate a cartel exists between insurance companies and health providers. I don't exactly see that.

The "free market" model has failed badly in this case
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There has been nothing remotely resembling a free market in this sector for decades. You can't point to something that isn't and hasn't been free market and declare "look how badly the free market did!" It wasn't a free market.

Cassandra said:
What is your thought about the story in the O.P.? It does not sound plausible to me. In my experience hospitals were happy to accommodate self-paying uninsured patients. They charged self pay people many times the amount they would receive from insurance cos. for the same procedure. For people who were cash strapped, the hospitals asked uninsured patients to schedule a payment plan. Typically, the terms were very generous. I don't know if this is currently true but this fella claims he offered 3 times the stated cost of care and was declined? Sounds odd to me.
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Yep.
 
Cassandra said:
What is your thought about the story in the O.P.? It does not sound plausible to me. In my experience hospitals were happy to accommodate self-paying uninsured patients. They charged self pay people many times the amount they would receive from insurance cos. for the same procedure. For people who were cash strapped, the hospitals asked uninsured patients to schedule a payment plan. Typically, the terms were very generous. I don't know if this is currently true but this fella claims he offered 3 times the stated cost of care and was declined? Sounds odd to me.
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Oh.. nice catch Cassandra.. I did not see that and went back to the OP.

They offered THREE TIMES the stated amount of care? And they couldn't get treatment without an insurance card.

Something is not kosher here.

If that actually occurred.. they were not willing to make payments ahead of the treatment... OR they failed a credit check etc. People will sometimes claim they can pay for care.. when they actually have zero intention of doing so. So IF it actually happened.. it was likely that they could not or would not put money up front in a deposit, or they failed a credit check etc. If it happened it had to be enough to make them feel no money ever was forthcoming.

You are right.. we do accommodate private pay. and we get burned by it. We treated a fellow who was more than happy to tell us he was going to pay.. our provider was "just sure" he would pay as he was relatively wealthy contractor. He got surgery, got after care, got therapy, all from our facilities. Then he went on a week long trip out of the country and took the whole family and when he came back he declared medical bankruptcy and stiffed us for 45,000 dollars...

And now he is up and running another contracting business and making money hand over fist in the area.
 
Neomalthusian said:
This is a rhetoric-heavy way to describe networking. Federal law did nothing to try to prevent networking. Predicting what would happen to health care and insurance costs if networking were to cease existing is not easy, but some would argue that prices would only increase, probably dramatically and quickly, if there were suddenly no networking allowed.
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A compelling argument indeed!
 
Greenbeard said:
A compelling argument indeed!
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Well it's your argument, I took it from you, trusting that you may be right, despite my grumblings about the place of ignorance many consumers feel they're in as a result of networking.
 
Neomalthusian said:
Citation needed.
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Err you expect hospital corporations to admit that they closed a hospital because profit margins were too low? LOL.. that would be a PR nightmare and they would be sued massively.

This is a rhetoric-heavy way to describe networking. Federal law did nothing to try to prevent networking. Predicting what would happen to health care and insurance costs if networking were to cease existing is not easy, but some would argue that prices would only increase, probably dramatically and quickly, if there were suddenly no networking allowed.
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Networking my ass. When you have hospitals charge 90k for a procedure and another 10 miles down the road charge 9k... then you have "networking issues".. the difference is most likely what insurance companies these hospitals work with.

I am opposed to cartels of any and every kind, but you'd have to do more to demonstrate a cartel exists between insurance companies and health providers. I don't exactly see that.
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Okay, tell me this.. you have insurance and get sick. You go to the hospital, but the insurance company says you have to go to another hospital... does this happen or not? Or your insurance company has "pre-approved" hospitals that you have to go to, or pay extra? If any of this happens, then that is a cartel.

There has been nothing remotely resembling a free market in this sector for decades. You can't point to something that isn't and hasn't been free market and declare "look how badly the free market did!" It wasn't a free market.
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Wait a minute, that is what the GOP has been claiming for decades.. free market and private.
 
PeteEU said:
Err you expect hospital corporations to admit that they closed a hospital because profit margins were too low? LOL.
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It was your claim, I just asked where you came up with it. Now it's sounding like you just made it up.

Networking my ass.
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That's what it's called.

When you have hospitals charge 90k for a procedure and another 10 miles down the road charge 9k... then you have "networking issues".. the difference is most likely what insurance companies these hospitals work with.
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Not "most likely." That's what it is.

Okay, tell me this.. you have insurance and get sick. You go to the hospital, but the insurance company says you have to go to another hospital... does this happen or not?
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Maybe, some hospitals don't tell you to go anywhere else, especially if the presenting problem is urgent. They provide care first and deal with the rest later.

It's become the patient's responsibility to know what providers and facilities are in the insurance network, and to know how much more financial exposure you have to care received that are outside that network.

Or your insurance company has "pre-approved" hospitals that you have to go to, or pay extra? If any of this happens, then that is a cartel.
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That isn't what defines cartels. I am extremely against cartels, so much so that I would repeal laws that permit collective bargaining by labor unions because those are definitely cartels, by definition, at least under current laws, but what you're talking about here isn't what makes for a cartel.

Wait a minute, that is what the GOP has been claiming for decades.. free market and private.
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Uttering the words "free market" and "private" is not a claim. What's the claim? No matter what anyone says, health care has not been a free market private good for a long, looong time. It's not a "failure of the free market" when the thing isn't free market in the first place.
 
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