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US healthcare - summarized in one graph

Vern said:
WCH, I'm happy that someone in your family understands what Jesus was talking about (unless you're Mormon but hey its almost the same) but that doesn't address my point. You said this



You were clearly implying "libruls" when you said "everyone" and your dad doesn't come close to being "everyone". But in the spirit of jesus (unless you're Mormon but hey its almost the same) we'll just let the mexico thing slide. With that being said, there is a lot to praise about Cuba's healthcare (and education) considering it is such a poor country.

And I don't think Jesus (unless you're Mormon but hey its almost the same) would accept your " wah wah I don't want to believe the UN". You've been told to hate the UN and you obediently do. that doesn't dispute the data. And since you've proven you'll post things as fact that you've literally made up, you should worry about your credibility.
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Since you have 'implied' that, people on the right, people suspicious of the UN motives, my Dad, Christians/Mormons in general of not worthy of their opinions and should rethink their values, IMO, your post isn't really due much of a reply.

BTW: you or anyone you know every been to Cuba or Belize?
 
Dittohead not! said:
First, it would seem to me that, if the standard of living is higher here in the USA, then it follows that people would be less stressed and healthier. Earlier, you were arguing just the opposite of that.

Second, if demand is what is driving health care costs, then it would logically follow that the price per procedure would, if anything, be lower.

However, it seems to be the cost per procedure that is to blame for the high cost of health care, and not the number of procedures that are being done.
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First... the standard of living is better here in the US.. .as I pointed out... but that depends on what you value. Americans tend to value having things.. like bigger houses, jetskis, firearms, two cars. We value certain activities like hunting, fishing, skiing, so on. For much of Europe .. those activities and things are beyond the poor and middle class. While they are enjoyed by americans.
But Europeans often value things like time off. So the trade off is that they get more time off.. but have less income.
They retire earlier as well in general.
Social mobility is also high on the list of americans... and though recently that has slipped in America.... for the longest part that has been an advantage of being in America. When I started my business... it was in America. there is no way I could have started a medical business in Europe where its tightly controlled and only those connected can get the contracts that provide care. Back then (which wasn't that long ago)... in Europe starting your own business and building it up was very difficult compared to the US.

Second, if demand is what is driving health care costs, then it would logically follow that the price per procedure would, if anything, be lower.
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Yeah.. that doesn't follow economics. If demand increases then the cost per procedure or cost per unit would increase. Why do you think gas goes up in the summer? Because demand goes up. Gas prices don't decline when demand goes up.

As for your link:

Overall... the cost of procedures per patient in America has stagnated or gone down. this is in America.

Your link compares America cost per procedure with the rest of the world and of course its higher than other countries. For many reasons. Our wages in America are higher.. and this is folded in the cost per procedure.
Costs like malpractice and education are folded into that cost of procedure... while in Europe... the government pays those costs and they don't end up in cost per procedure.
Then there is the access as I stated. Having 4 different specialist clinics for a community means that each clinic is less efficient. they have lower marketshare and this means that they must get more per patient to survive. The costs of duplication of infrastructure etc means an increase per patient.

In Europe.. there would be one specialist for the whole community... not 4. which means that its more efficient... and more volume from increased marketshare which means less cost per patient. The flip side is that you wait and wait to see a specialist and you only see the specialist that you are assigned to.

Where in America..you get your choice of specialist and you get in way way faster.
 
jaeger19 said:
First... the standard of living is better here in the US.. .as I pointed out... but that depends on what you value. Americans tend to value having things.. like bigger houses, jetskis, firearms, two cars. We value certain activities like hunting, fishing, skiing, so on. For much of Europe .. those activities and things are beyond the poor and middle class. While they are enjoyed by americans.
But Europeans often value things like time off. So the trade off is that they get more time off.. but have less income.
They retire earlier as well in general.
Social mobility is also high on the list of americans... and though recently that has slipped in America.... for the longest part that has been an advantage of being in America. When I started my business... it was in America. there is no way I could have started a medical business in Europe where its tightly controlled and only those connected can get the contracts that provide care. Back then (which wasn't that long ago)... in Europe starting your own business and building it up was very difficult compared to the US.



Yeah.. that doesn't follow economics. If demand increases then the cost per procedure or cost per unit would increase. Why do you think gas goes up in the summer? Because demand goes up. Gas prices don't decline when demand goes up.

As for your link:

Overall... the cost of procedures per patient in America has stagnated or gone down. this is in America.

Your link compares America cost per procedure with the rest of the world and of course its higher than other countries. For many reasons. Our wages in America are higher.. and this is folded in the cost per procedure.
Costs like malpractice and education are folded into that cost of procedure... while in Europe... the government pays those costs and they don't end up in cost per procedure.
Then there is the access as I stated. Having 4 different specialist clinics for a community means that each clinic is less efficient. they have lower marketshare and this means that they must get more per patient to survive. The costs of duplication of infrastructure etc means an increase per patient.

In Europe.. there would be one specialist for the whole community... not 4. which means that its more efficient... and more volume from increased marketshare which means less cost per patient. The flip side is that you wait and wait to see a specialist and you only see the specialist that you are assigned to.

Where in America..you get your choice of specialist and you get in way way faster.
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You seem to be very knowledgeable about health care and the costs thereof. I've been pretty much sheltered from the cost of it, first through being in an employer paid group health, and now eligible for Medicare. For me, it's been great, except for the difficulty of negotiating contracts years ago in which the premiums became a bigger issue than salaries.

But, I have friends who are self employed and are paying as much as $2,000 a month for a high deductible policy. They're understandably unhappy with the current system.

So, if not universal health care, what would you suggest as a way to provide real affordable health care to the middle class and upper middle class? How much longer can they pay that two grand when the price keeps escalating? We're at the point now where the poor are being subsidized by the government, but the middle class either has employer based insurance or is being priced out of the market, and employers are quickly being priced out of business as well.
 
WCH said:
Since you have 'implied' that, people on the right, people suspicious of the UN motives, my Dad, Christians/Mormons in general of not worthy of their opinions and should rethink their values, IMO, your post isn't really due much of a reply.

BTW: you or anyone you know every been to Cuba or Belize?
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Oh W, I’ve implied no such thing. And I praised your dad’s values. You cant respond to what I post so you have to “misparaphrase” it. Intentional or not, its dishonest. Jesus would not approve of that either.

Anyhoo, I called you out for your “everyone praises mexico and cuba” comment as false. I pointed out you “invented” the mexico part and I explained the cuba part (and belize has nothing to do with this). You felt the need to deflect to your dad when I said “cuba and mexico” probably rank high because its a “cost vs life span” graph. The graph is about comparing us to other first world countries so your reference to cuba and mexico in itself was a deflection.

Of course your deflections make sense in the delusional fog of conservative narratives but that’s all they were, deflections. It’s a simple graph of “cost vs life span” and you felt an obedient need to flail at it. And whining about cuba and the UN is all you could think of. You should question your values when they require you to flail at reality.
 
Vern said:
Oh W, I’ve implied no such thing. And I praised your dad’s values. You cant respond to what I post so you have to “misparaphrase” it. Intentional or not, its dishonest. Jesus would not approve of that either.

Anyhoo, I called you out for your “everyone praises mexico and cuba” comment as false. I pointed out you “invented” the mexico part and I explained the cuba part (and belize has nothing to do with this). You felt the need to deflect to your dad when I said “cuba and mexico” probably rank high because its a “cost vs life span” graph. The graph is about comparing us to other first world countries so your reference to cuba and mexico in itself was a deflection.

Of course your deflections make sense in the delusional fog of conservative narratives but that’s all they were, deflections. It’s a simple graph of “cost vs life span” and you felt an obedient need to flail at it. And whining about cuba and the UN is all you could think of. You should question your values when they require you to flail at reality.
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If I confused your Leftist snark with praise then I do apologize. :cool:

Something makes me think I'm not.
 
WCH said:
If I confused your Leftist snark with praise then I do apologize. :cool:

Something makes me think I'm not.
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dude, "godless librul" is another conservative narrative used to get you to obediently flail at and distrust reality. Case in point, what reason do you have to not believe the graph the OP is based on? Cost of healthcare in each country and life spans are not some obscure concept. they are readily available from numerous sources. I know flailing at the CIA is now a conservative narrative (which kinda proves my point) but you can look up the data in the CIA factbook

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html.
 
Vern said:
dude, "godless librul" is another conservative narrative used to get you to obediently flail at and distrust reality. Case in point, what reason do you have to not believe the graph the OP is based on? Cost of healthcare in each country and life spans are not some obscure concept. they are readily available from numerous sources. I know flailing at the CIA is now a conservative narrative (which kinda proves my point) but you can look up the data in the CIA factbook

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html.
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Back to the fact that ObamaCare has raised those costs further. Price you pay for living in this soon-to-be great country.
 
Threegoofs said:
Looks like the US is a pretty dramatic outlier among developed nations.

Now what could have happened in about 1980 to start this type of divergence??
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I give up. What do you see or think? Clearly spending on health care has increased more in the US than the other countries listed from 1980. Rather consistent curve, despite relative equality in party control of the Congress or Presidency. Clearly the US is changing from a free enterprise system where much of the costs were paid by the private individuals to one dominated by government and corporations, with government spending growing faster than any other payor. When people have a skin in the game, costs are controlled better.
US Health Care Spending: Who Pays? - CHCF.org

Such a mix of countries on this list. Some have centralized public financing, some have decentralized. Some have private insurance and some have public insurance and some only public funding.

Don't get much of the life expectancy curve. Some cultures live more adventurous lives and some are more sedate.

Wonder how much of US spending is related to research. In one 20 year period I researched, US affiliated researchers earned 27 out of 44 Nobel Prizes for Medicine. US R&D probably helps the world significantly.
 
WCH said:
Back to the fact that ObamaCare has raised those costs further. Price you pay for living in this soon-to-be great country.
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er uh WCH, this thread is not about "ObamaCare has raised those costs further". Its about how much we spend as a country vs our life spans. Can you at least admit there was no reason to flail at the data in the graph? Also here's some good info for you

Vern said:
In 2001 NHE {national heath expenditures) was 14% of GDP. In 2009, it was 17.3. wow, that's 3.4% of GDP jump. In 2015 its 17.8 %. That's not as bad as your random blog made it out to be It always help to go straight to the source.

https://www.cms.gov/research-statis...enddata/nationalhealthaccountshistorical.html
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Eric7216 said:
I give up. What do you see or think? Clearly spending on health care has increased more in the US than the other countries listed from 1980. Rather consistent curve, despite relative equality in party control of the Congress or Presidency. Clearly the US is changing from a free enterprise system where much of the costs were paid by the private individuals to one dominated by government and corporations, with government spending growing faster than any other payor. When people have a skin in the game, costs are controlled better.
US Health Care Spending: Who Pays? - CHCF.org

Such a mix of countries on this list. Some have centralized public financing, some have decentralized. Some have private insurance and some have public insurance and some only public funding.

Don't get much of the life expectancy curve. Some cultures live more adventurous lives and some are more sedate.

Wonder how much of US spending is related to research. In one 20 year period I researched, US affiliated researchers earned 27 out of 44 Nobel Prizes for Medicine. US R&D probably helps the world significantly.
Click to expand...

I don't believe research spending is in the cost of health care in these types of studies. I know basic science research isn't- which is where all those Nobels come from.

And clinical research in other developed nations is pretty extensive- probably not that different from the US.
 
Risky Thicket said:
A couple of months ago in while in Ireland I began to get an ear infection. Not wanting it to become worse (it's happened before and it became a lot worse until I saw a doctor) I went to see a physician in the Irish medical system. I walked in with no appointment or referral. I filled out one short form that was less than a page. I saw a physician in less than 10 minutes and received excellent care. The visit cost me $50.

I am not saying their system is perfect. I am saying our system damn sure isn't perfect and isn't getting better.
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In my view the biggest single factor that has a negative effect on healthcare in the US is the insurance industry, the third party that is not really necessary.

One could not design a less effective and more expensive system to deliver healthcare than the one we have. The insurance industry is the 800 pound gorilla in the room that should be occupied only by physician and patient.
 
Thoreau72 said:
In my view the biggest single factor that has a negative effect on healthcare in the US is the insurance industry, the third party that is not really necessary.

One could not design a less effective and more expensive system to deliver healthcare than the one we have. The insurance industry is the 800 pound gorilla in the room that should be occupied only by physician and patient.
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I completely agree. The insurance company is always standing in between you and your doctor making certain they get their cut.
 
Thoreau72 said:
In my view the biggest single factor that has a negative effect on healthcare in the US is the insurance industry, the third party that is not really necessary.

One could not design a less effective and more expensive system to deliver healthcare than the one we have. The insurance industry is the 800 pound gorilla in the room that should be occupied only by physician and patient.
Click to expand...

Nope, it is the abuse of medical insurance that causes the problem. Insurance becomes a problem when it becomes a "managed care" provider covering every pill, stitch, lab test and check-up. Insurance is for the rare, unexpected and expensive events in life - not to cover and thus get a cut of all routine health maintenance expenses.

Why is your auto, home or life insurance not seen as an equally evil "middle man"? Could it be that auto policies do not cover washing/waxing your car, replacing worn tires and providing "free" oil changes and tune ups? If your home owners/renters policy covered lawn maintenance, replacing worn out carpet, furniture and appliances then it too would have much higher premiums.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Nope, it is the abuse of medical insurance that causes the problem. Insurance becomes a problem when it becomes a "managed care" provider covering every pill, stitch, lab test and check-up. Insurance is for the rare, unexpected and expensive events in life - not to cover and thus get a cut of all routine health maintenance expenses.

Why is your auto, home or life insurance not seen as an equally evil "middle man"? Could it be that auto policies do not cover washing/waxing your car, replacing worn tires and providing "free" oil changes and tune ups? If your home owners/renters policy covered lawn maintenance, replacing worn out carpet, furniture and appliances then it too would have much higher premiums.
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Don't get me wrong--I am not against insurance per se, I am merely against it as the controlling entity in the US healthcare system, which it is.

My own primary care physician, and several other physician friends of mine feel the same way. They each must employ a person whose ONLY job is to handle the insurance companies. In many cases, how they medically treat their patients is influenced greatly by the insurance companies.

I'm all for a person buying whatever sort of insurance he wants, such as catastrophic care or other plans, but to have the insurance company with a pecuniary interest be involved in the daily care of patients is a foolish state of affairs, yet that's what we have.

Over the years our medical model has become seriously flawed and obscenely expensive.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Nope, it is the abuse of medical insurance that causes the problem. Insurance becomes a problem when it becomes a "managed care" provider covering every pill, stitch, lab test and check-up. Insurance is for the rare, unexpected and expensive events in life - not to cover and thus get a cut of all routine health maintenance expenses.

Why is your auto, home or life insurance not seen as an equally evil "middle man"? Could it be that auto policies do not cover washing/waxing your car, replacing worn tires and providing "free" oil changes and tune ups? If your home owners/renters policy covered lawn maintenance, replacing worn out carpet, furniture and appliances then it too would have much higher premiums.
Click to expand...

Yeah.. that's a crock.. there is no such abuse of medical insurance.

the reason that auto, home and life insurance is not seen as an evil middle man is because you don't get in car accidents regularly. nor do you have a home issue. but getting sick happens with increasing frequency as you get older. In fact.. when you get older.. you are less likely to get into a car accident. not so medically.
 
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