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High Deductible Plans with Health Savings Accounts

High Deductible Plans with Health Savings Accounts

i don't support that solution. people will still avoid using the system until the disease becomes chronic and expensive. then they still won't be able to afford the crushing deductibles, and the rest of us will pay for it in the form of higher premiums, as we continue to deliver universal healthcare in emergency rooms to the effectively uninsured.
 
Yeah...a tax CREDIT does not really help those who don't make enough to pay taxes, so where will this plan leave the millions of Americans who currently rely on subsidies to buy insurance because they can't otherwise afford it? It sounds like millions of Americans who work would be better off quitting their jobs so that they can qualify for Medicaid since I imagine many will not be able to afford health insurance while working.

And where is the magic cost control? If tens of millions of Americans are suddenly allowed to get back a portion of what they spent on insurance, then all the insurance companies can simply raise their rates. It doesn't create any new competition.

The cost control currently does not exist.

As long as insurance pays the bill, nobody cares about the cost.

I happen to be a pretty good example of this. i probably need to have treatment for Sleep Apnea. The test alone to determine weather of not I need to get the corrective action is $952.00.

This is not the cure. It is only the test to see if the cure is required to correct the condition.

I know from eye witness testimony that I stop breathing during the night then suddenly wake up with a snort and snore loudly when sleeping on my back. that's Sleep Apnea.

I don't need the test so I'm not going to get the test. If insurance paid the cost, I'd get the test. It doesn't so I won't.

That's cost control.

The cost of Breast Implants and Lasik Surgery has been going down because these are not covered by most insurance plans so price shopping occurs.

Without price shopping, there is not price control.

If the cost of all cars was covered by insurance and so the consumer could buy whatever car they wanted regardless of cost when they wanted a car, do you think the cost of cars would even be a consideration for the auto sellers?
 
Umm, Advanced Tax Credits are not only a part of ACA, they are socialized health care.

When even Price is going down the socialized care route, then you know there really is no alternative

The post to which I responded stated in part, "There is no alternative at this point."

I was only showing there is an alternative.

To cite one similarity and claim they are identical seems a bit simplistic. Regardless of how similar they might be, this other plan is an alternative.

Rosie O'Donnell and Melania Trump both have two legs. I can't think of enough other shared similarities to call them identical.
 
The post to which I responded stated in part, "There is no alternative at this point."

I was only showing there is an alternative.

To cite one similarity and claim they are identical seems a bit simplistic. Regardless of how similar they might be, this other plan is an alternative.

Rosie O'Donnell and Melania Trump both have two legs. I can't think of enough other shared similarities to call them identical.

First off, I said NOTHING about anything being identical. That is a straw man you pulled out of your ass to avoid responding to the point I actually did make- that both Prices and Obamas advanced tax credits are a form of socialism. You avoided that point to avoid the embarrasment of admitting that your alternative to socialized medicine was just another form of socialized medicine

So please stop fantasizing about Rosies legs and try to address the actual point
 
First off, I said NOTHING about anything being identical. That is a straw man you pulled out of your ass to avoid responding to the point I actually did make- that both Prices and Obamas advanced tax credits are a form of socialism. You avoided that point to avoid the embarrasment of admitting that your alternative to socialized medicine was just another form of socialized medicine

So please stop fantasizing about Rosies legs and try to address the actual point

You seemed to be supporting the idea there was no alternative to the ACA.

Sorry. I never seem to be able to correctly identify the hairs you split.
 
You seemed to be supporting the idea there was no alternative to the ACA.

Sorry. I never seem to be able to correctly identify the hairs you split.

More like you never seem able to correctly understand simple english.

Both of us have pointed out that there is no alternative to socialism to make health care affordable. No one said there is no alternative to ACA. That is just another lie you pulled out of your ass to avoid responding to what was actually said
 
Nope. That isn't what does it.

Performing the occasional additional MRI is not what makes an MRI so expensive in the first place. And malpractice insurance covers most of the monetary penalties of getting sued.

The cost of defensive medicine, combined with malpractice insurance, was only 2.4% of medical costs in the US in 2010. It hasn't ballooned since then.

The real problem is that health care is not well served by the profit motive, because patients don't have the option to shop around. If you have a heart attack, you're not going to spend 20 minutes bargain hunting for hospitals online. The EMTs are not going to transport you to one hospital which has a low cost for its emergency room, and then to another that has a half-price sale on stents.

This is also apparent with drug prices. There is a genuine need for pharmaceuticals to spend big on R&D, and factors like patent expiration and generics mean they have a limited time to earn profits. However, we've also seen in recent years how these claims are used as a cover to gouge patients, who have little or no choice but to pay for specific drugs.

Yes, there are times when you have a week to get that CAT scan, or you can choose between a brand and generic. But most of the time, you don't have a choice of treatments, you don't have time to find the discount doctor, you can't get treatments on sale, you don't get coupons for amoxicillin, you can't choose aspirin when you need chemo.

The element of choice, which is so critical to a healthy market, doesn't apply to health care.



Yeah, there's a problem with that article. It doesn't actually back up the headline claim. It just issues it as fact.

That claim comes from the Institute of Medicine, which says the real problem is that doctors aren't doing proper follow-up, don't have enough continuity of care, and that digital records would be a big help. (Reminder: Requiring digital records is a part of the ACA.)

Most of the that is in the elderly population. They see lots of doctors, who don't always coordinate, and the patients don't always keep good track of things (or can't). They receive unnecessary treatments, that barely extend life and don't improve quality of life.

I believe they have a point, but anyone who thinks that we can cut 1/3 of costs with better follow-up and digital records is almost certainly being... optimistic.

Most of that is Medicare, too, so it's not driving up insurance costs. And just running more tests doesn't make the tests more expensive.

Equally important is that single-care systems have similar issues -- e.g. the NHS only started siloing patient records in one digital location last year -- but their costs are still significantly lower than the US health care system.



Neither the article you linked, or the IOM report, backs up that claim.



Yes, that's the chargemaster.

You know why hospitals have that? It's because those costs are a starting point for negotiations with health insurers. The poor saps without insurance get slapped with the full costs, unless they know to negotiate -- and aren't in a strong negotiating position.

It's another way that the profit motive drives up costs, because both the hospital and insurers are gunning for profits.

I'll give one example to show how the system works under government directed healthcare.

My aunt was receiving an annual injection of a special medication to slow or halt serious osteoporosis (severe thinning of the bones.) I am her primary driver and other facilitator when it comes to this kind of stuff.

When we arrived at the specialist's office, after a lengthy wait, we were ushered into to see the doctor who advised that her blood tests showed that the medication was adversely affecting her liver and they would need to switch her to another that was almost as good as what she was getting but was considerably more expensive and involved a helfty co-pay. There was a medication that was far more effective than what she had been getting and less expensive; however she would have to pay the whole cost because Medicare would not pay for it.

Why wouldn't Medicare pay for it? Because they only provided it for patients who had had their gallbladder's removed. I asked what the gall bladder had to do with osteoporosis, and he admitted absolutely nothing. So many of the rules of what Medicare will and will not pay for are absolutely incomprehensible from a medical perspective.

And people wonder why I don't want the government in control of our healthcare.
 
I'll give one example to show how the system works under government directed healthcare.

My aunt was receiving an annual injection of a special medication to slow or halt serious osteoporosis (severe thinning of the bones.) I am her primary driver and other facilitator when it comes to this kind of stuff.

When we arrived at the specialist's office, after a lengthy wait, we were ushered into to see the doctor who advised that her blood tests showed that the medication was adversely affecting her liver and they would need to switch her to another that was almost as good as what she was getting but was considerably more expensive and involved a helfty co-pay. There was a medication that was far more effective than what she had been getting and less expensive; however she would have to pay the whole cost because Medicare would not pay for it.

Why wouldn't Medicare pay for it? Because they only provided it for patients who had had their gallbladder's removed. I asked what the gall bladder had to do with osteoporosis, and he admitted absolutely nothing. So many of the rules of what Medicare will and will not pay for are absolutely incomprehensible from a medical perspective.

And people wonder why I don't want the government in control of our healthcare.

So you are complaining about how the govt is not reducing the cost of medical care and give an example where the govt wouldnt provide more expensive medical care?

Oh,and your doctor is a quack. Removal of the gall bladder can *cause* osteoporosis
 
So you are complaining about how the govt is not reducing the cost of medical care and give an example where the govt wouldnt provide more expensive medical care?

Oh,and your doctor is a quack. Removal of the gall bladder can *cause* osteoporosis

Well there are 286 different things on the list that contribute to osteoporosis, but I don't see gallbladder removal among them. My doctors certainly did not mention osteoporosis as an issue to watch out for when I had my gallbladder removed.
Osteoporosis - Symptom Checker - check medical symptoms at RightDiagnosis

After that incident I asked several doctor friends about it and none of them had ever heard of gall bladder removal causing or aggravating osteoporosis. I also did quite a bit of my own research and found cases in which osteoporosis caused gallbladder problems though this is rare. I found a couple of homeopaths who linked gall bladder problems with osteoporosis but it is unlikely the gall bladder caused the osteoporosis but it was the other way around.

My complaint, since the 1960's, has been that the government does not reduce the cost of healthcare but in fact has aggravated it and escalated it and is a huge part of the reason that it has become so unaffordable. I want to see government get out of it as much as possible.
 
Haven't they spent 6 years trashing high deductible plans at this point?

That would be high deductible plans without substantial decrease in premiums.
 
A lady in CA found out the hard way. She had to have a Ct done of her abdomen. The hospital advertised it at 4K dollars.
Blue cross to the rescue only charged her 2000. What a deal. Ol wait the hospital cash price 750 bucks.

Another hospital said they would do it for 550.

The problem is how hospitals calculate their costs. You should know this being in the industry. Their massive database obscures the true cost of medical care. That cash price is their actual price everything over that is fluff for the hospital.

You know for a fact that a Advil doesn't cost 80 bucks even a prescription dosage. It costs 2 dollars if that yet the hospital charges 80 or more.

How does one get access to this cash price? Back when I was uninsured, no one would give me a straight answer on the price of an emergency room visit that did NOT result in being admitted to the hospital. We later get a bill for $5,000+. We have been at an impasse ever since the hospital won't negotiate below $3,500 . There is seven months left before the statute of limitations expires. It looks like the number that we will be forced to agree on is zero.
 
So far, I love my High Deductable plan + HSA. In nextwork, I have a $2700 deductible with a $6550 out of pocket maximum (in network). The difference in my premium at work is $75/month which I use to help max out my HSA. I wish they were around years ago so I could accumulate more HSA savings before I need it. Tax deductable and If I die, my wife gets it for her healthcare--all tax free (principal and interest) when used for healthcare.

You forgot to add 'Thanks, Obama!', since the ACA made this plan possible.
 
Well there are 286 different things on the list that contribute to osteoporosis, but I don't see gallbladder removal among them. My doctors certainly did not mention osteoporosis as an issue to watch out for when I had my gallbladder removed.
Osteoporosis - Symptom Checker - check medical symptoms at RightDiagnosis

Lower Osteoporosis Risk With Proper Acid/Alkaline Balance
https://www.jackkruse.com/osteoporosis-two-the-vitamin-k2-story/
Alkaline Phosphatase

My complaint, since the 1960's, has been that the government does not reduce the cost of healthcare but in fact has aggravated it and escalated it and is a huge part of the reason that it has become so unaffordable. I want to see government get out of it as much as possible.

You complain about how the govt is escalating the price of health care while at the same time pushing for policies (ie having medicare pay for more expensive treatments) that increase the cost of health care. It is people like you who are the problem. When you whine about the price of healthcare, what you are really whining about is that the govt is not paying for it. You want MORE involvement from the govt, not less
 
That would be high deductible plans without substantial decrease in premiums.

They've specifically attacked the size of the deductibles. Full stop.

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You want me to believe the message from GOP is actually that deductibles "so high...many Americans feel like they don't have insurance at all" are good, so long as we get premiums lower?

Because somehow in their pandering to imply they can/will make deductibles lower, that's not coming across.
 
I would love to see us enact a government provided plan with a sliding scale deductible based on income with a third party market for optional and much more simple additional coverage for your deductible gap and things not covered by the single player plan. Ideally the government plan would also cover 100% of the cost of mandatory preventative care visits for anyone over a certain age to help catch diseases earlier when they are cheaper to treat.

The biggest reasons our healthcare costs are so absurd is 1. administrative costs of dealing with so many different payers 2. a total lack of transparency, accountability, and predictability for charges and 3. our horribly unhealthy American lifestyle that results in so much obesity, diabetes, and heart disease.

There is 0 reason we should not be able to provide a basic quote for non-emergent services upfront. If people were more connected to the cost of the care they are received due to the high deductible plans, they could shop around more for services. In some cases, for expensive procedures, it makes more sense to fly to another city half way across the country than to get treatment at your local hospital. Making people accountable for significant proportions of the cost of their care should also encourage them to have healthier lifestyles. I think service providers should be required to provide upfront assessments of costs whenever possible.

The only reason we can't do this now is because of our reliance on third party negotiation with multiple insurance providers for each network.

We also need to get away entirely from making employers responsible for providing healthcare insurance. This is an utterly terrible idea for many reasons but mainly before when someone loses their job or needs to leave is precisely the worst time to be without health insurance.
 
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How does one get access to this cash price? Back when I was uninsured, no one would give me a straight answer on the price of an emergency room visit that did NOT result in being admitted to the hospital. We later get a bill for $5,000+. We have been at an impasse ever since the hospital won't negotiate below $3,500 . There is seven months left before the statute of limitations expires. It looks like the number that we will be forced to agree on is zero.

I would be extremely surprised if they actually would give you a true detailed cost of care for an individual visit. It is very difficult to account for the varying costs of the supplies purchased, much less the true labor cost to account for the nurses, pharmacists, secretaries, technicians, and transporters who were needed for your care. That being said, they should know roughly how much they need to recoup for the length of care provided to break even, which is all a non profit ER should be trying to do.

It is an extreme problem that customers both don't find out how much a service is going to be until weeks after care was provided and has almost no recourse to get a more fair bill when you end up with an outrageous bill. Maybe they could set up some adjudicating courts that have access to regional data on the cost of care who can review cases like this.

My partner recently received an ER bill for $10,000 for a service that should have costed about $2000 based on records from regional data available on the internet. We received 3 bills, one from the hospital and 2 from the contracted physicians. One physician charged her $2000 just for his services for a procedure he completely failed at which necessitated a specialist coming in and doing the same procedure again. He sent a bill for about $2500, but since we didn't have any insurance, he knocked it down to $150. The hospital then charged us $8000 for the use of the ER and OR for about 1 hour and 30 minutes total. Somewhat luckily, the first physician made a grievous medical error and the hospital comped everything so we wouldn't sue. But the reasonable physician charging us $150 instead of $2500 tells you something about how much that service should really cost if they weren't trying to overcharge so insurances will pay more.
 
They've specifically attacked the size of the deductibles. Full stop.

10ym79k.png


You want me to believe the message from GOP is actually that deductibles "so high...many Americans feel like they don't have insurance at all" are good, so long as we get premiums lower?

Because somehow in their pandering to imply they can/will make deductibles lower, that's not coming across.

I swear... I think their message is 'health care is too expensive, we are going to make it cheaper by taking it away from you'.

And the suckers are buying it.
 
I would be extremely surprised if they actually would give you a true detailed cost of care for an individual visit. It is very difficult to account for the varying costs of the supplies purchased, much less the true labor cost to account for the nurses, pharmacists, secretaries, technicians, and transporters who were needed for your care. That being said, they should know roughly how much they need to recoup for the length of care provided to break even, which is all a non profit ER should be trying to do.

It is an extreme problem that customers both don't find out how much a service is going to be until weeks after care was provided and has almost no recourse to get a more fair bill when you end up with an outrageous bill. Maybe they could set up some adjudicating courts that have access to regional data on the cost of care who can review cases like this.

My partner recently received an ER bill for $10,000 for a service that should have costed about $2000 based on records from regional data available on the internet. We received 3 bills, one from the hospital and 2 from the contracted physicians. One physician charged her $2000 just for his services for a procedure he completely failed at which necessitated a specialist coming in and doing the same procedure again. He sent a bill for about $2500, but since we didn't have any insurance, he knocked it down to $150. The hospital then charged us $8000 for the use of the ER and OR for about 1 hour and 30 minutes total. Somewhat luckily, the first physician made a grievous medical error and the hospital comped everything so we wouldn't sue. But the reasonable physician charging us $150 instead of $2500 tells you something about how much that service should really cost if they weren't trying to overcharge so insurances will pay more.

The $5,000 ER visit we had ended in "here's a prescription, that and some bed rest is your course of treatment". I'm amazed that they would rather not get a red cent than to get something reasonable. I listed a minor child as "next of kin" for the member of my household being treated, which is perfectly legal. I hated to stiff health care providers that way, but they gave me no choice.
 
The $5,000 ER visit we had ended in "here's a prescription, that and some bed rest is your course of treatment". I'm amazed that they would rather not get a red cent than to get something reasonable. I listed a minor child as "next of kin" for the member of my household being treated, which is perfectly legal. I hated to stiff health care providers that way, but they gave me no choice.

Truly insane. You're right. They gave you no choice. I suppose the thinking is its easier to get 1 person to pay an outrageous bill than to get 15 to pay a reasonable one.
 
We are huge consumers of healthcare and costs in our "capitalistic" society are off the charts.

Until these aspects of healthcare in this nation are effectively addressed, coverage will always be a catastrophe.

The ACA did little to nothing to contain costs and over-utilization.

But hospitals are closing left and right and the industry is rambling toward an oligopoly basically, maybe that was the plan all along.

Actually the ACA did quite a bit to contain costs and over utilization. AS was being done prior to the ACA.. stemming back to the Balanced Budget Act in the late 1990's.

The ACA did little to contain insurance costs.. which are quite different.
 
I would be extremely surprised if they actually would give you a true detailed cost of care for an individual visit. It is very difficult to account for the varying costs of the supplies purchased, much less the true labor cost to account for the nurses, pharmacists, secretaries, technicians, and transporters who were needed for your care. That being said, they should know roughly how much they need to recoup for the length of care provided to break even, which is all a non profit ER should be trying to do.

It is an extreme problem that customers both don't find out how much a service is going to be until weeks after care was provided and has almost no recourse to get a more fair bill when you end up with an outrageous bill. Maybe they could set up some adjudicating courts that have access to regional data on the cost of care who can review cases like this.

My partner recently received an ER bill for $10,000 for a service that should have costed about $2000 based on records from regional data available on the internet. We received 3 bills, one from the hospital and 2 from the contracted physicians. One physician charged her $2000 just for his services for a procedure he completely failed at which necessitated a specialist coming in and doing the same procedure again. He sent a bill for about $2500, but since we didn't have any insurance, he knocked it down to $150. The hospital then charged us $8000 for the use of the ER and OR for about 1 hour and 30 minutes total. Somewhat luckily, the first physician made a grievous medical error and the hospital comped everything so we wouldn't sue. But the reasonable physician charging us $150 instead of $2500 tells you something about how much that service should really cost if they weren't trying to overcharge so insurances will pay more.

Insurances dictate what I get paid. Some services that are very costly to me hardly get reimbursed but are necessary to the health of the client. Other services that are very cheap for me.. but are still necessary are reimbursed at a much higher rate. Since every insurance is different.. to be able to make a profit.. you must charge the highest rate in order to capture what the insurance companies are willing to pay.

the issue with American healthcare is insurance companies for the most part. .. (and our demographics as you allude to).
 
Actually the ACA did quite a bit to contain costs and over utilization. AS was being done prior to the ACA.. stemming back to the Balanced Budget Act in the late 1990's.

The ACA did little to contain insurance costs.. which are quite different.

But the framework is there - to lower insurance costs (while expanding insurance for everyone - including those with preexisting conditions) you need to:

1) increase the number of insured (done by a mandate)
2) lower the cost of health care overall
3) increase competition
4) minimize insurers pocketing excess premiums (done with the 80/20 rule - premiums get refunded if payouts are under 80%)

The competition issue seems to be the challenge - some of that (maybe all) is due to the obstinence of Congress to tweak the ACA at all, since the GOP is praying for failute.
 
But the framework is there - to lower insurance costs (while expanding insurance for everyone - including those with preexisting conditions) you need to:

1) increase the number of insured (done by a mandate)
2) lower the cost of health care overall
3) increase competition
4) minimize insurers pocketing excess premiums (done with the 80/20 rule - premiums get refunded if payouts are under 80%)

The competition issue seems to be the challenge - some of that (maybe all) is due to the obstinence of Congress to tweak the ACA at all, since the GOP is praying for failute.

No.. because you left out the framework that increases the insurance costs.

mandating that employers cover their employees.. which pushes employer based insurance. Which means more costs and less portability
Government subsidies.. which increases insurance costs by making the federal government now on the hook for premiums. Bigger pockets.. more can be demanded in premiums
Mandate to have insurance.. which means more demand for insurance.
restrictions on the type of insurance that qualify.. increasing costs.
and the 80/20 rule which encourages more costs. the 80/20 rule encourages more costs because the more it costs you.. the more you can make/charge.


the giant assumption was the reducing healthcare costs would mean lower premiums. And that was the wrong assumption because as reality works.. what you pay for a product has to do with demand and the market.. and not simply on what it costs to make/provide.

So we reduced costs to the insurance company... and did little to nothing to put downward pressure on insurance premiums.
 
No.. because you left out the framework that increases the insurance costs.

mandating that employers cover their employees.. which pushes employer based insurance. Which means more costs and less portability
Government subsidies.. which increases insurance costs by making the federal government now on the hook for premiums. Bigger pockets.. more can be demanded in premiums
Mandate to have insurance.. which means more demand for insurance.
restrictions on the type of insurance that qualify.. increasing costs.
and the 80/20 rule which encourages more costs. the 80/20 rule encourages more costs because the more it costs you.. the more you can make/charge.


the giant assumption was the reducing healthcare costs would mean lower premiums. And that was the wrong assumption because as reality works.. what you pay for a product has to do with demand and the market.. and not simply on what it costs to make/provide.

So we reduced costs to the insurance company... and did little to nothing to put downward pressure on insurance premiums.

First I've ever heard of the 80/20 rule increasing costs/premiums.

Got a credible reference?
 
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