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Cuomo announces income tax revenues dropped by $2.3B

joko104 said:
Slowing immigration, particularly illegal immigration, hits NYC's population for obvious reason. Over 1/3rd of NYCers were not born in the USA.

More Foreign-Born Immigrants Live In NYC Than There Are People In Chicago

Over 37 percent of New York City residents were born in another country, according to a new report, the highest percentage in over 100 years. A record high 3.07 million foreign-born immigrants live in New York City, more than any other city in the world.

For perspective: There are more foreign-born New Yorkers than there are people living in America’s third-largest city, Chicago, or roughly the same as the populations of Philadelphia and Phoenix combined.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/19/new-york-city-immigrants_n_4475197.html
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Immigration is still pumping NYC's population. Opportunity knocks. Foreign born immigrants built this nation. Those that are coming to NYC are proving themselves industrious and hard working, bringing skills and opening businesses. They help make this city great and work to improve it. More than 80 different ethnic groups are represented in this city, and it is reason to celebrate. Many of them are religious conservatives, desirous of law and order, making sacrifices to improve the future of their children. Our churches are having trouble accommodating them, and the same with out libraries. Catholic dioceses which were closing schools as their parishioners matured and their children moved to suburbs are now examining the need for more schools, the same with Yeshivas, and other religious houses of worship. MYC has its liberals and libertines, but it also a growing conservative religious base thanks to immigration.
 
holbritter said:
So the population that is growing, is not paying taxes. Go figure.
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The tax revenue losses are mostly attributed to Wall Street woes, not the citizenry.
 
sangha said:
Again, because of the new limit on the SALT deduction for federal income taxes, NYers are paying more in FIT. Since FIT is deductible on NYS income taxes, those who are paying more in federal income taxes are getting larger deductions on their NYS income taxes which caused NYS income tax revenue to decrease.

IOW, they are paying taxes. Just less taxes.

And your stupid argument is that people are leaving NYS because they are paying more in NYS income tax, even though the title of the thread clearly states that they are paying less.
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There is no reason for everyone in the USA to subsidize NYC by paying part of their state taxes.

NYC is one of the USA's top immigration hubs - and #1 if California's illegal Latino migrants are not counted. The rich are the rich and stay rich, usually getting richer. The poor tend to stay poor, reliant upon government. NYC also is a major homeless center.

It is the middle class that feels economic pressure even with minor changes. They cannot turn to the government to make up the difference nor are their employers going to make up the difference. Given how tough it is financially to live in NYC for cost of living, it will be the middle class that leave.

This is more than typical white-flight from the inner city to the suburbs. To make NYC government viable, they have to hit on the entire state including rural and small cities/towns - which tend to be lower income in general anywhere. The reason many people opt to live in rural areas or small cities in the economic savings. If taxes make small town life too costly, that bubble bursts quickly.

All major cities have the problem of people working in the city, but not living in the city. They use city infrastructure, but don't pay for it. Because of its extremely high immigrant population combined with absurdly expensive housing costs, I'm surprised NYC does as well as it does.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Immigration is still pumping NYC's population. Opportunity knocks. Foreign born immigrants built this nation. Those that are coming to NYC are proving themselves industrious and hard working, bringing skills and opening businesses. They help make this city great and work to improve it. More than 80 different ethnic groups are represented in this city, and it is reason to celebrate. Many of them are religious conservatives, desirous of law and order, making sacrifices to improve the future of their children. Our churches are having trouble accommodating them, and the same with out libraries. Catholic dioceses which were closing schools as their parishioners matured and their children moved to suburbs are now examining the need for more schools, the same with Yeshivas, and other religious houses of worship. MYC has its liberals and libertines, but it also a growing conservative religious base thanks to immigration.
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I've only been to NYC once and really didn't like it a lot. But that is another matter. As an economic matter, what struck me is how outrageous rents are. A person can rent a 2000+ square foot waterfront house here for less than a 1000 square foot Harlem brown brick apartment. Much less.

The bright picture you paint is not the norm by my searching. Skilled artisans and craftsmen make high income everywhere if they work and know what they are doing - plus have the necessary license. They are not the average person.

"Yet recently released census data paints a different portrait. Measured by median income, Manhattan and (especially) Brooklyn are much poorer than you think. Manhattan’s median annual household income is $66,739, while Brooklyn’s is a mere $44,850. Its less fashionable neighbor, Queens, outearns Brooklyn at $54,373 per year. New York City’s most suburban borough, Staten Island, is also its richest, with a median household income of $70,295, while the suburban counties surrounding New York are all richer than any of the boroughs."

https://slate.com/business/2014/01/...-brooklyn-are-much-poorer-than-you-think.html

I doubt it has changed that much in the last 4 years.

Conservative??? 67% of voters in NYC are registered Democrats and NYC votes 80% Democratic - more Democratic each decade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_New_York_City
 
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sangha said:
True, but I think both you and I made the mistake of conflating the new limits on the SALT tax deduction and income taxes. You specifically references the former as being behind the drop in tax revenue. That does not make sense to me

Real estate taxes in NYS are paid if you own property in NYS, regardless if you are a legal resident or not. In order to avoid that, you have to sell your property. Of course, that is entirely doable. However, the limit is with deductions to ones Federal Income Tax. The limit on SALT deductions are in effect in every state. Since a wealthy person from NY is unlikely to move into a cheap home, nor move far away, it is unlikely that they well be significantly reducing their real estate tax bill, and therefore just as likely to be affected by the new SALT limit

Remember, these are people who are paying a lot of money in RE taxes. That is because they have an expensive home in an expensive area. This means they knowingly and deliberately paid a very high premium to live there. In order to save a significant amount, they would have to either move into a smaller home in a less upscale area - a choice they deliberately chose to not make when they purchased this property.


The problem is that NYers are paying more in FIT, which is deductible on NYS income taxes. More FIT means a larger deduction on their NYS IT
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It's not property taxes that would be the issue for most people. It's state income tax. If you're in a high state income tax state then you deducted the income tax you paid throughout the year in withholding or estimates as part of that SALT deduction. If you no longer get to deduct that then why not move your residence to a state where that deduction doesn't matter?
 
Lutherf said:
It's not property taxes that would be the issue for most people. It's state income tax.
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The article says they are paying LESS state income tax, so that is not the reason why rich people to move.
If you're in a high state income tax state then you deducted the income tax you paid throughout the year in withholding or estimates as part of that SALT deduction. If you no longer get to deduct that then why not move your residence to a state where that deduction doesn't matter?
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For the same reasons they paid a premium for their NY property in the first place.

Remember, the new limit of the SALT deduction does not reduce their state real estate tax. They bought their highly taxed expensive home knowing they were going to take it in both ends by paying a lot for the house, and then a lot in taxes every year. If they were looking to save money, they would not have bought here in the first place.

The #s show that the outflow of people from NYS is mainly in the upstate areas and western parts of NYS - hardly a playground for the wealthy. Add in the fact that the most expensive place in NYS --ie NYC-- is growing, and there is no reason to believe that wealthy people are fleeing NYS.
 
We get a lot of commercials aired here in Ohio for starting up or moving businesses to NY offering all kinds of tax incentives but they never say for how long.
Cuomo proposed a few months back that the state of NY would pay for tuition at any NY state college of any kid or dreamer whose parents made 125,000 or less annual income. Does anyone know if that came to be?

Then a week or so back the mayor of NYC said that the city would provide healthcare for everyone including illegals.


Who is paying for all of this?
 
joko104 said:
I've only been to NYC once and really didn't like it a lot. But that is another matter. As an economic matter, what struck me is how outrageous rents are. A person can rent a 2000+ square foot waterfront house here for less than a 1000 square foot Harlem brown brick apartment. Much less.

The bright picture you paint is not the norm by my searching. Skilled artisans and craftsmen make high income everywhere if they work and know what they are doing - plus have the necessary license. They are not the average person.

"Yet recently released census data paints a different portrait. Measured by median income, Manhattan and (especially) Brooklyn are much poorer than you think. Manhattan’s median annual household income is $66,739, while Brooklyn’s is a mere $44,850. Its less fashionable neighbor, Queens, outearns Brooklyn at $54,373 per year. New York City’s most suburban borough, Staten Island, is also its richest, with a median household income of $70,295, while the suburban counties surrounding New York are all richer than any of the boroughs."

https://slate.com/business/2014/01/...-brooklyn-are-much-poorer-than-you-think.html

I doubt it has changed that much in the last 4 years.

Conservative??? 67% of voters in NYC are registered Democrats and NYC votes 80% Democratic - more Democratic each decade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_New_York_City
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In reality, Staten Island, Richmond County if far from one of the wealthiest, inhabited mostly by civil servants. Brooklyn has always been skewed by the preponderance of City projects and their inhabitants. However, the last four years have seen an exponential increase in wealth as gentrification has brought former Manhattanites to neighborhoods like Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights, Red Hook, Williamsburg and others. And that also includes massive new construction. The old housing stock of brownstones and other architectural gems have been gentrified and income levels have exploded along with prices. Mayor Bill's Park Slope brownstone, bought for less than a $150k is now worth $2.6 mil were it on the market. Queens also has a preponderance of city projects skewing income levels, and a far greater population of wealthy retirees who show no or minimal taxable earned income. Try buying an Archie Bunker 1 family for less than $750k. Apartments that sold for $35k a decade or two ago for less than $350k and you'll experience a futile search. The southern tier of the county is still lower middle-class and poor, but that is also moving upwards. During the last 5 years, I and my partners completed 6 major construction projects in Queens with units starting at $750k reaching $4.2mil, completely sold out, with buyers have an average income of 7 figures. 4 years here as far as real income and asset growth is like 20 years elsewhere. The Russian/Ukrainian, the Asian communities are extremely upwardly mobile, not to mention other ethnic groups that are maturing quickly.

Don't be fooled by political labels. Yes the voting majority are Democrats, skewed by Manhattan. But the newer ethnic groups are just beginning to find their political voices. And don't think there aren't conservative Democrats, just like their are liberal Republicans. The extremists have loud voices but they are not as representative as you believe. People want their safety, better education from the public schools, and less spending on political ego projects. They want the infrastructure and public transportion improve and riddance of the progressive bicycle lanes. These are universal political desires. The Republican party here has always suffered from poor leadership. It needs new blood and that will come from the immigrant community. It has already commenced in the face of Democrat corruption. City councilman Eric A. Ulrich has set the path. The people of this city hate the mayor and governor, with no faith in either the city council or the state legislature. Outsiders looking in only see the superficial. For $1,800 per month you may find a one room studio apartment in any of the boroughs. Families earning less than 6 figures cannot afford to live here. And many partake of the underground economy which does not exist for your figures. :)

OC did not win the election because of her progressive views. She won as an Hispanic. When a Spanish speaking Republican runs in a Spanish ethnic district, a democrat will lose.
 
vesper said:
We get a lot of commercials aired here in Ohio for starting up or moving businesses to NY offering all kinds of tax incentives but they never say for how long.
Cuomo proposed a few months back that the state of NY would pay for tuition at any NY state college of any kid or dreamer whose parents made 125,000 or less annual income. Does anyone know if that came to be?

Then a week or so back the mayor of NYC said that the city would provide healthcare for everyone including illegals.


Who is paying for all of this?
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You believe political promises?

Both Cuomo and Mayor Bill regularly make announcements that never bear fruit. Mayor Bill is a windbag, and blows mucho hot air. Worse he's clueless.
 
OldFatGuy said:
You believe political promises?

Both Cuomo and Mayor Bill regularly make announcements that never bear fruit. Mayor Bill is a windbag, and blows mucho hot air. Worse he's clueless.
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Evening OldFatGuy. No I DON'T TAKE POLITICAL PROMISES SERIOUSLY. The whole point of my post was to point out they in NY are all talk.
 
 
vesper said:
Evening OldFatGuy. No I DON'T TAKE POLITICAL PROMISES SERIOUSLY. The whole point of my post was to point out they in NY are all talk.
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We're in agreement. Enjoy a good night's sleep. I'm looking forward to my wife's cold feet in the middle of my back for the next 7-8 hours.
 
sangha said:
Again, because of the new limit on the SALT deduction for federal income taxes, NYers are paying more in FIT. Since FIT is deductible on NYS income taxes, those who are paying more in federal income taxes are getting larger deductions on their NYS income taxes which caused NYS income tax revenue to decrease.

IOW, they are paying taxes. Just less taxes.

And your stupid argument is that people are leaving NYS because they are paying more in NYS income tax, even though the title of the thread clearly states that they are paying less.
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No. My argument is that people are leaving NYS because of high taxes overall. And as far as I know, only 6 states allow deduction of FIT on their state returns, and NY is not one of them.
 
OldFatGuy said:
You're deluding yourself. NYC has one of the highest tax rates when combined with the state taxes. The middle class isn't leaving, it's moving upwards into the 20%ers. Six figure salaries are common, and real estate assets keep moving upwards. One of my nieces is earning upwards of $150k, her boyfriend/fiancé about $200k. They were complaining how they couldn't cut it here, wanting to sell their $800k apartment and move to NJ. After contemplating the commute, they are not giving up their careers, NJ taxes and higher mortgage payments at new rates, they realized they could save more money here. Don't ask how they came to that conclusion, I don't know. Why, with a combined income of $350k they thought they weren't cutting it is beyond me. :) They are millennials, so often castigated in the media, but they share an investment portfolio worth more than a $mil that also turns out dividends they reinvest. They are far from uncommon. Most everyone I know in my age bracket, I'm 70, is worth at least a $million and complaining. Go figure?

NYC is still the economic capital of the world. There's money to be made despite the high costs of living and more people keep arriving with hope in their eyes. The poverty rate here has declined drastically over the past three decades, and so has government assisted living. You don't know what you are talking about. Plumbers here are making more than bankers. :) One of my neighbors retired from the NYPD with a nice pension, he's earning another $150k doing construction work as neighborhoods are gentrifying. He can't keep up with demand for his labor. New monolith luxury buildings are going up in the outer counties, with prices similar to Manhattan when they are a subway stop or two from Manhattan. They sellout before construction is completed. There are neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Queens where home prices have surpassed Manhattan. If anything, it is the poor who are leaving, heading south as they are cut off from government assistance because now they have to work for the benefits. There is no more welfare without work, except for the disabled and severely ill. The homeless ranks have stabilized, and they find themselves being harassed out of gentrified neighborhoods, by private hired security, hired because our illustrious progressive mayor keeps failing them. They are also beginning to leave, where I don't know, but they are leaving.
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I don't know what NY you're talking about, but you don't have to be working in order to receive benefits in NY. And the homeless just move around to different neighborhoods.
 
Lutherf said:
It's not property taxes that would be the issue for most people. It's state income tax. If you're in a high state income tax state then you deducted the income tax you paid throughout the year in withholding or estimates as part of that SALT deduction. If you no longer get to deduct that then why not move your residence to a state where that deduction doesn't matter?
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You can still deduct, it's capped now.
 
Funny thing. When SALT first came about, I remember thinking that Cuomo is in trouble now. It's easier to let slide how high your taxes are when you can deduct them on your federal return. Now that it's limited, Cuomo now has to face the heat on it. Of course he's blaming SALT, and he could be right in some respects, but he's now failing to realize that just as many people are leaving that not affected by SALT.

And why should the federal government take the hurt out of high taxes for a state?
 
Lutherf said:
https://nypost.com/2019/02/04/cuomo-announces-income-tax-revenues-have-dropped-by-2-3b/



Cuomo blames the Trump tax cut's SALT limitation.

While the article doesn't expressly state why the SALT limitation has an impact the obvious answer is that wealthy New Yorkers are taking up residence in states that don't have huge property and income taxes on the wealthy. If they can no longer deduct their state taxes they'll live somewhere that it doesn't make a difference.

I love this bit.



I wonder if his brother, Chris, feels the same way?
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SALT has 0 impact on what the state collects. it has more to do with people that have moved away from his high tax high
cost of living state.
 
holbritter said:
I don't know what NY you're talking about, but you don't have to be working in order to receive benefits in NY. And the homeless just move around to different neighborhoods.
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NY requires all able bodied welfare recipients to work. It is a state mandate and law established under the Republican administrations of Governor George Pataki more than 20 years ago. No work, no benefits. Exceptions are the disabled and those too ill, or emergency grants (i.e. a family suffers a fire which forces them to seek help to get back on their feet). Spending for welfare is down drastically over the last two decades. Workfare has led to many entering the workforce at low level jobs and improving themselves. The days of the welfare baby factories are a thing of the past. Truly, no one wants to be on welfare, not even the working poor who do receive supplemental benefits. Even those of the lowest economic rungs want self sufficiency and self respect, a better future for their children.

You need to get out more:
https://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/15/...e-rules-used-as-way-to-cut-welfare-rolls.html

Yup, for the homeless, that's how it works. Eventually, they will run out of neighborhoods to move to. This is an island city. Geographic limitations make real estate more valuable as the population gentrifies every neighborhood. Citizens will no longer tolerate the behaviors of the homeless, many who are psychologically dangerous and aggressive or just behave offensively. Some are harmless, but many are not. They are a source of low level crimes, and at times more severe crimes. There are many, but not as many as the media portrays. There are no accurate counts of the homeless population. NIMBY is a force that makes the homeless unwelcome and not tolerated.
 
holbritter said:
Funny thing. When SALT first came about, I remember thinking that Cuomo is in trouble now. It's easier to let slide how high your taxes are when you can deduct them on your federal return. Now that it's limited, Cuomo now has to face the heat on it. Of course he's blaming SALT, and he could be right in some respects, but he's now failing to realize that just as many people are leaving that not affected by SALT.

And why should the federal government take the hurt out of high taxes for a state?
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Because the State of New York (because of NYC) and other high income states contribute far more in Federal revenues than other states, receiving less back proportionally. To not do so threatens the goose that lays the golden egg.

No one is leaving because of SALT. You are deluding yourself. People just learn to use other strategies for avoiding excessive taxation. SALT will prove to be a failed policy and will be eliminated by future administrations.
 
OldFatGuy said:
NY requires all able bodied welfare recipients to work. It is a state mandate and law established under the Republican administrations of Governor George Pataki more than 20 years ago. No work, no benefits. Exceptions are the disabled and those too ill, or emergency grants (i.e. a family suffers a fire which forces them to seek help to get back on their feet). Spending for welfare is down drastically over the last two decades. Workfare has led to many entering the workforce at low level jobs and improving themselves. The days of the welfare baby factories are a thing of the past. Truly, no one wants to be on welfare, not even the working poor who do receive supplemental benefits. Even those of the lowest economic rungs want self sufficiency and self respect, a better future for their children.

You need to get out more:
https://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/15/...e-rules-used-as-way-to-cut-welfare-rolls.html

Yup, for the homeless, that's how it works. Eventually, they will run out of neighborhoods to move to. This is an island city. Geographic limitations make real estate more valuable as the population gentrifies every neighborhood. Citizens will no longer tolerate the behaviors of the homeless, many who are psychologically dangerous and aggressive or just behave offensively. Some are harmless, but many are not. They are a source of low level crimes, and at times more severe crimes. There are many, but not as many as the media portrays. There are no accurate counts of the homeless population. NIMBY is a force that makes the homeless unwelcome and not tolerated.
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I look forward to seeing a decline in the hospitality afforded to vagrants, which I read costs the public purse over $70,000 per year, happening in Seattle and Olympia. We are making some progress, the other week the director of the food bank downtown Oly was complaining to city council that they are seeing their "clients" increasingly unwilling to brave the mean streets of Olympia to collect free food, and when the food bank is bitching....

I see no evidence so far that he is getting anywhere, there has been well over a decade of refusal to deal with situation.
 
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OldFatGuy said:
NY requires all able bodied welfare recipients to work. It is a state mandate and law established under the Republican administrations of Governor George Pataki more than 20 years ago. No work, no benefits. Exceptions are the disabled and those too ill, or emergency grants (i.e. a family suffers a fire which forces them to seek help to get back on their feet). Spending for welfare is down drastically over the last two decades. Workfare has led to many entering the workforce at low level jobs and improving themselves. The days of the welfare baby factories are a thing of the past. Truly, no one wants to be on welfare, not even the working poor who do receive supplemental benefits. Even those of the lowest economic rungs want self sufficiency and self respect, a better future for their children.

You need to get out more:
https://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/15/...e-rules-used-as-way-to-cut-welfare-rolls.html

Yup, for the homeless, that's how it works. Eventually, they will run out of neighborhoods to move to. This is an island city. Geographic limitations make real estate more valuable as the population gentrifies every neighborhood. Citizens will no longer tolerate the behaviors of the homeless, many who are psychologically dangerous and aggressive or just behave offensively. Some are harmless, but many are not. They are a source of low level crimes, and at times more severe crimes. There are many, but not as many as the media portrays. There are no accurate counts of the homeless population. NIMBY is a force that makes the homeless unwelcome and not tolerated.
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Well since that link is from 21 years ago, I'd say YOU need to get out more.

Here are requirements for certain benefits. Notice it does not say you must be employed.

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/hra/dow...factors_and_suggested_documentation_guide.pdf

https://otda.ny.gov/programs/temporary-assistance/

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/hra/dow...factors_and_suggested_documentation_guide.pdf
 
OldFatGuy said:
Because the State of New York (because of NYC) and other high income states contribute far more in Federal revenues than other states, receiving less back proportionally. To not do so threatens the goose that lays the golden egg.

No one is leaving because of SALT. You are deluding yourself. People just learn to use other strategies for avoiding excessive taxation. SALT will prove to be a failed policy and will be eliminated by future administrations.
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I didn't say they were. You didn't comprehend what I wrote, or you would see the opposite.
 
holbritter said:
Well since that link is from 21 years ago, I'd say YOU need to get out more.

Here are requirements for certain benefits. Notice it does not say you must be employed.

SNAP is not welfare, tho managed by welfare. I suggest you apply for welfare in NY and see for yourself that you must show where you are working, or agree to be assigned a job. Temporary assistance is for those suffering momentary catastrophes as mentioned.

Among the largest employers of welfare recipients who are assigned jobs are the NYC Parks Dept., the NYC Sanitation Dept., The NYC Hospitals Corp., more than a hundred private employers including supermarket chains and cleaning companies. Anyone can swing a mop or pick up trash in our parks and on our streets. Second Chance is a program under the auspices of the Sanitation Dept. which employs released convicts on parole who apply for welfare to sweep sidewalks and collect trash in commercial districts. Many of these men and women find they are offered jobs by local merchants. Steps for self respect. You don't have a clue.
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Hawkeye10 said:
I look forward to seeing a decline in the hospitality afforded to vagrants, which I read costs the public purse over $70,000 per year, happening in Seattle and Olympia. We are making some progress, the other week the director of the food bank downtown Oly was complaining to city council that they are seeing their "clients" increasingly unwilling to brave the mean streets of Olympia to collect free food, and when the food bank is bitching....

I see no evidence so far that he is getting anywhere, there has been well over a decade of refusal to deal with situation.
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There's no question homelessness is a problem in every city. It is a time long problem. That doesn't mean social programs have to be encouraging or appeasing, to drug addicts, alcoholics who have destroyed their lives, or the mentally ill who have alternatives like taking their meds. Then there are the fakers, who claim homelessness to beg and gain benefits they are not entitled to.

I empathize with the working poor who lose jobs through no fault of their own and subsequently find themselves evicted and homeless. There are programs for them they can take advantage of, and many do after temporary assistance. Individuals have a responsibility to themselves. There is no reason our society should support those who do not make an effort to help themselves, but there is a social responsibility to assist those who cannot help themselves.

For decades, there were two women posing as nuns, seated at the bottom of a busy escalator in Grand Central Station, never saying a word other than "Bless you" to passerby's who dropped coins and folding money in their alms bowls. When they were outed as not being nuns, but living in luxury apartments, with large bank accounts and plump investment portfolios, people were shocked and the two disappeared from Grand Central Station. We have fake veterans doing similar routines and pretending to be homeless. Beggars pay no taxes and are part of the underground economy. Beats working. People are generous.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Because the State of New York (because of NYC) and other high income states contribute far more in Federal revenues than other states, receiving less back proportionally. To not do so threatens the goose that lays the golden egg.

No one is leaving because of SALT. You are deluding yourself. People just learn to use other strategies for avoiding excessive taxation. SALT will prove to be a failed policy and will be eliminated by future administrations.
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No doubt that SALT will be eliminated with a democratic administration and congress. That is because it is punitive to their donor class. To say no one is leaving because of SALT just assumes people making millions per year are stupid. Something I do not agree with.
 
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