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NYC Subways so bad that $836 million extra is considered a bandaid

OldFatGuy said:
Feel free to feel whatever you want, but I've seen him in action, laying down groundwork for transaction ten years before ground was broken, and execution faster, on schedule with A quality work compared to other developers jump the gun.

Government isn't a business, no one cares truly about government debt. Time will cure is the belief, and history confirms. Our period of greatest debt was after the revolution. In the meantime, when it comes to lucre, no one objects to spending except those who haven't insinuated themselves in front of the riches to be had. That is politics in America, and everywhere else. Forget the idealism, forget about doing right, it is all about Mamon.

Never forget what Obama had to say about Trump, "Don't underestimate this guy." You may be watching the right hand, but you need to watch the left as well. He's always working the finesse.
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Whatever acumen he has as a developer doesn't at all necessarily translate as a politician; already he's done significant damage in my view, and has betrayed himself as not being particularly long sighted or intelligent several times over. He's a great (at least when he remembers not to self-contradict) and habitual liar no doubt, but that's about the extent of his gifts I've seen; this 'stable genius' just doesn't play three dimensional chess.

In terms of debt, I'd say that depends on the politico, but yes, as a rule they certainly don't care where the interests of their donors are directly concerned; we shall see if they feel such infrastructure spending is in order as that is who truly mandates it; between this and the usual Republican aversion to govt spending on public works that don't directly and acutely reward their benefactors, I give that long odds at best.
 
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Surrealistik said:
See my prior response.



In general, I feel you ascribe far more foresight, abstract and longer term thinking to Trump than he actually has; overall, I feel the balance of probability is that this is simply another campaign trail casual lie he doesn't intend to deliver on, but I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised.

As to Congress, if they ever muster to pass it, which I doubt with so many being inherently against govt spending no matter the probable benefits, and with a yawning, voluminous deficit to face of their own creation, it'll indeed do so off the back of pork calibrated not to maximize the benefit of the tax payer, but of its constituent politicos.
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I could careless what your prior response is.

There are things called facts.

Trump has already proposed a infrastructure bill to congress. A 5 second google search would have told you this.
That is as far as h can take it. There is nothing else as the president he can do.

It is then the job of congress to take the proposal and draft a bill and pass it for him to sign.
Congress either hasn't done this or refuses to.

So your whole anti-trump meme just fell apart.
 
OldFatGuy said:
We can hope and pray. :)

However, before he goes he claims NYS is ahead of its neighbors for legalizing recreational pot sales. Action talks, but first, he claims, our leap forward is evidenced by committees studying how best to follow through while NJ is just talking. :eek: Translation - Our state legislators with Andy consulting, is attempting to best determine how much tax revenue can be raised by selling pot, and how best to spend more than comes in. How to control licenses without appearing nepotistic, and how to pocket graft from the licensed. Perhaps the licenses should be sold at auction, rather than just the result of filling out forms. So many question to study before the first license is granted. Of course with a simple alteration of the liquor laws, every liquor store could also sell pot. A flat ten percent tax can get the ball rolling overnight. Too easy. Go Andy, GO!
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Why make things easy and cheap when you can do complicated and squeeze blood from a stone? It's the NY way.
 
I assume that most of those 8 million rides a day are regulars, and so have a metro pass.
The metro pass went up last year from $116 to $121 for 30 days, or about $40 million a month.
 
Surrealistik said:
Whatever acumen he has as a developer doesn't at all necessarily translate as a politician; already he's done significant damage in my view, and has betrayed himself as not being particularly long sighted or intelligent several times over. He's a great (at least when he remembers not to self-contradict) and habitual liar no doubt, but that's about the extent of his gifts I've seen; this 'stable genius' just doesn't play three dimensional chess.

In terms of debt, I'd say that depends on the politico, but yes, as a rule they certainly don't care where the interests of their donors are directly concerned; we shall see if they feel such infrastructure spending is in order as that is who truly mandates it; between this and the usual Republican aversion to govt spending on public works that don't directly and acutely reward their benefactors, I give that long odds at best.
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He is not a politician, he's smarter than politicians. He's a con man, a promoter, and when future generations look back, they will wonder how the current generations misunderstood him.

He is calling shots others have only whispered. He is roiling the waters, and doing exactly what he promised from the onset of campaign, bringing earthquakes to the status quo. Long overdue. Which is why he is hated by the Republican establishment. We forget he was a life long Democrat. The Democrats wanted his donations, but laughed at his presidential ambitions. He turned Republican because he understood the party status quo vulnerabilities and grabbed the nomination. He's right about NATO, he is right about the EU, he is right about the Iran deal that wasn't, he is right about Russia not being an enemy, he is right that the day of America being the world's police, EMT service and moral arbiter is over. He is right about the temper tantrums of the progressives who don't want equal opportunity but equal outcomes, and that is not how life works. He's right, investigations are a distraction from far more important issues and workings. They are just a political tool for the disgruntled and of no real value. He is right about forcing China to realize it must be a partner, not the new gun in town.

My experiences in the backrooms of local politics for most of my adult life taught me politics are always corrupt, always about the pork, as the fronts talk about ideals but rarely if ever deliver. It is in the backrooms where deals are cut, the spoils are controlled and divided, and true power lies in job appointments, government no bid contracts, and lies for the public. And when we some politician caught doing whatever it is because that politician attempted to pocket more than a fair share and deny others their fair shares.

Examine carefully what he says and does, often two different paths, one to mislead and distract, the other to take the back run. Classic Trump - threaten the EU with tariffs when the goal is to get the EU to drop their tariffs of American goods. Left them speechless. He isn't anti-immigration, he's anti unlawful immigration and wants the immigration quotas expanded. That's not racist or bigoted, it is working within the laws of the land. But his critics who have done nothing but mouth off would rather see unlawful immigrants live in fear, be economically forced into the underground economy and stuck with the most menial, below minimum wage hopeless economic opportunities.

Whether it is the result of timing, self doubt on the part of fatboy, Trump is the only one to have brought him to the table for talks, and he cut fatboy off the moment fatboy thought he had the upper hand, he came right back to the table. He still is not our problem. He is SK and China's problem. They will have to deal with the entire distressed NK population and it will be expensive for them. Politics again as an issue of money.

I could easily go on, but ultimately, you don't know him and you won't give him an inch of leeway. There are no politicians who do not lie all the time, they are merely more subtle. He's very purposefully absurd, now go figure out why?

Dean Skelos and son were shocked to find their convictions upheld on retrial. Spitzer still wears black socks.
 
longview said:
I assume that most of those 8 million rides a day are regulars, and so have a metro pass.
The metro pass went up last year from $116 to $121 for 30 days, or about $40 million a month.
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Still the cheapest ride in town, and far less expensive than most other mass transit systems with far less reach.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/23/...hoto-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

A complete disaster as a result of many decades of neglect, much like the DC system.
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Well, that a bit over the top since the system still operates relatively well all things considered. I do agree that there has been neglect, especially during the 70s and 80s when the city was doing poorly economically. I remember the poorly maintained stations, old and graffiti filled trains, and the crime. It's an entirely different subway system now and every time I go into the Times Square station I think about what it used to be an how creepy it was walking between the that station and the Port Authority station. Now it's a tunnel that has posters and is well lit; back then it was a long, poorly lit walk that reeked of urine and home to plenty of vagrants.
 
longview said:
I assume that most of those 8 million rides a day are regulars, and so have a metro pass.
The metro pass went up last year from $116 to $121 for 30 days, or about $40 million a month.
Click to expand...

I'd guess that a significant fraction of people who use the subway to just get work and stay at the office all day don't use the unlimited metrocard as the break even point is 13 rides/week at the current subway fare of $2.75. As well seniors and kids get discounted rates.

That said I think your calculation is a bit off. At full frieght 8 million rides a day works out to 660 million a month If everyone used a metrocard and averaged 15 rides a week that would work out to 484 million dollars a month. Factor in discounted rides for kids/students and seniors and I guess the number is probably around 400 million a month
 
ludin said:
I could careless what your prior response is.

There are things called facts.

Trump has already proposed a infrastructure bill to congress. A 5 second google search would have told you this.
That is as far as h can take it. There is nothing else as the president he can do.

It is then the job of congress to take the proposal and draft a bill and pass it for him to sign.
Congress either hasn't done this or refuses to.

So your whole anti-trump meme just fell apart.
Click to expand...

Yes, and the facts are, as stated, he knows full and well a Republican controlled Congress is extremely unlikely to actually pass any such trillion+ infrastructure program.

OldFatGuy said:
He is not a politician, he's smarter than politicians. He's a con man, a promoter, and when future generations look back, they will wonder how the current generations misunderstood him.

He is calling shots others have only whispered. He is roiling the waters, and doing exactly what he promised from the onset of campaign, bringing earthquakes to the status quo. Long overdue. Which is why he is hated by the Republican establishment. We forget he was a life long Democrat. The Democrats wanted his donations, but laughed at his presidential ambitions. He turned Republican because he understood the party status quo vulnerabilities and grabbed the nomination. He's right about NATO, he is right about the EU, he is right about the Iran deal that wasn't, he is right about Russia not being an enemy, he is right that the day of America being the world's police, EMT service and moral arbiter is over. He is right about the temper tantrums of the progressives who don't want equal opportunity but equal outcomes, and that is not how life works. He's right, investigations are a distraction from far more important issues and workings. They are just a political tool for the disgruntled and of no real value. He is right about forcing China to realize it must be a partner, not the new gun in town.

My experiences in the backrooms of local politics for most of my adult life taught me politics are always corrupt, always about the pork, as the fronts talk about ideals but rarely if ever deliver. It is in the backrooms where deals are cut, the spoils are controlled and divided, and true power lies in job appointments, government no bid contracts, and lies for the public. And when we some politician caught doing whatever it is because that politician attempted to pocket more than a fair share and deny others their fair shares.

Examine carefully what he says and does, often two different paths, one to mislead and distract, the other to take the back run. Classic Trump - threaten the EU with tariffs when the goal is to get the EU to drop their tariffs of American goods. Left them speechless. He isn't anti-immigration, he's anti unlawful immigration and wants the immigration quotas expanded. That's not racist or bigoted, it is working within the laws of the land. But his critics who have done nothing but mouth off would rather see unlawful immigrants live in fear, be economically forced into the underground economy and stuck with the most menial, below minimum wage hopeless economic opportunities.

Whether it is the result of timing, self doubt on the part of fatboy, Trump is the only one to have brought him to the table for talks, and he cut fatboy off the moment fatboy thought he had the upper hand, he came right back to the table. He still is not our problem. He is SK and China's problem. They will have to deal with the entire distressed NK population and it will be expensive for them. Politics again as an issue of money.

I could easily go on, but ultimately, you don't know him and you won't give him an inch of leeway. There are no politicians who do not lie all the time, they are merely more subtle. He's very purposefully absurd, now go figure out why?

Dean Skelos and son were shocked to find their convictions upheld on retrial. Spitzer still wears black socks.
Click to expand...

You can go on ad nauseum about how Trump is playing three dimensional chess; I'll believe it when I see results other than this country's ongoing alienation from traditional allies, an ongoing failure to actually deal with NK and Iran, massive deficit and debt exploding giveaways for the rich, and redoubled corruption and cronyism that any idiot could ram through with his party in control of literally every chamber of government.
 
Surrealistik said:
Yes, and the facts are, as stated, he knows full and well a Republican controlled Congress is extremely unlikely to actually pass any such trillion+ infrastructure program.
Click to expand...

That has no bearing on your argument in which you are blaming trump for something he has no control over.
He has proposed it. it is now in congresses hands and their job to draft or not draft a bill.

If they don't draft a bill or jam a bill in committee then there is little he can do to move it.
so blame congress for their inaction on the issue.

so as i said your anti-trump meme is blown apart by facts.
 
ludin said:
That has no bearing on your argument in which you are blaming trump for something he has no control over.
He has proposed it. it is now in congresses hands and their job to draft or not draft a bill.

If they don't draft a bill or jam a bill in committee then there is little he can do to move it.
so blame congress for their inaction on the issue.

so as i said your anti-trump meme is blown apart by facts.
Click to expand...

I didn't blame Trump; what I asserted, and rightly so, is that it was a false, hollow promise made to garner votes without actually having to do anything.
 
ElChupacabra said:
Well, that a bit over the top since the system still operates relatively well all things considered. I do agree that there has been neglect, especially during the 70s and 80s when the city was doing poorly economically. I remember the poorly maintained stations, old and graffiti filled trains, and the crime. It's an entirely different subway system now and every time I go into the Times Square station I think about what it used to be an how creepy it was walking between the that station and the Port Authority station. Now it's a tunnel that has posters and is well lit; back then it was a long, poorly lit walk that reeked of urine and home to plenty of vagrants.
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"All things considered" meaning "With how long and profoundly the system has been neglected" I hope you mean.

Very few people claim that the system works well, even at its best it is slow and worn.

That it is not yet as stinky as it has been is not much of an argument.

The guts of the system have several more decades of age now.

$800 Million is just a Band-aid now.
 
Surrealistik said:
You can go on ad nauseum about how Trump is playing three dimensional chess; I'll believe it when I see results other than this country's ongoing alienation from traditional allies, an ongoing failure to actually deal with NK and Iran, massive deficit and debt exploding giveaways for the rich, and redoubled corruption and cronyism that any idiot could ram through with his party in control of literally every chamber of government.
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:rofl

Baseball players rarely play chess.

How do you judge a policy with NK or Iran a failure before anything has reached a conclusion, one way or another?

NK, this show is just beginning.

Iran, the deal that wasn't a deal. It's economy is collapsing. With protests, the new generations have displayed they are angry with Iran's foreign adventures, strict domestic policies, and oppression. Jimmy Carter should have ordered the marines to destroy Iran the moment the embassy was invaded. He failed, the Democratic Party failed. Now we are suffering the Mouse That Roared.

And this is a major part of the current left's problem, praying for presidential failure, regardless as to whether or not the policy in question is good or not for the nation and the world.

When traditional allies have behaved more like enemies than friends, alienation is a positive. The EU nations truly want the benefits of being an American Ally, then let them consider their policies and attitudes that are bringing them the need to explore other options. There is no reason why they should have our cake and get to eat it also.

During every presidential administration I've lived through, complaints about expanding debt, benefits to the wealthy and corruption have rang forth, every single one. "Wolf, wolf, wolf!"

I got into politics for one reason only. Politics brought in business, a lot of business. The same reasons underlying why I got involved in philanthropic fundraisers, the social scene for wives of politicians.

Exactly how much personal involvement beyond showing up at protest marches, have you truly enjoyed?
 
NYC subways are the most busiest in the country. It's going to be tough rotating closures for repairs. New York traffic is tough as it is. Imagine the gridlocks,which may be for hours as passengers will have to find alternate transportation. Would not be surprised if all systems around the country needing repairs.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Baseball players rarely play chess.

How do you judge a policy with NK or Iran a failure before anything has reached a conclusion, one way or another?

NK, this show is just beginning.

Iran, the deal that wasn't a deal. It's economy is collapsing. With protests, the new generations have displayed they are angry with Iran's foreign adventures, strict domestic policies, and oppression. Jimmy Carter should have ordered the marines to destroy Iran the moment the embassy was invaded. He failed, the Democratic Party failed. Now we are suffering the Mouse That Roared.

And this is a major part of the current left's problem, praying for presidential failure, regardless as to whether or not the policy in question is good or not for the nation and the world.

When traditional allies have behaved more like enemies than friends, alienation is a positive. The EU nations truly want the benefits of being an American Ally, then let them consider their policies and attitudes that are bringing them the need to explore other options. There is no reason why they should have our cake and get to eat it also.

During every presidential administration I've lived through, complaints about expanding debt, benefits to the wealthy and corruption have rang forth, every single one. "Wolf, wolf, wolf!"

I got into politics for one reason only. Politics brought in business, a lot of business. The same reasons underlying why I got involved in philanthropic fundraisers, the social scene for wives of politicians.

Exactly how much personal involvement beyond showing up at protest marches, have you truly enjoyed?
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Thus far, Trump's efforts have been a failure in Iran and NK; sure, I'll grant that he's not yet finished with them, but overall and thus far, with NK continuing to ramp up its program despite Trump's flattery and photo ops, and Iran becoming more hostile and less cooperative than ever before without actually stopping any nuclear development or effecting a turn over of its government, things look bad.

With respect to our allies, the idea that they've been acting more like enemies than friends is an absolute invention and a ridiculous farce; according to what? Which policies? Which attitudes? I've yet to see anything substantive; perhaps you can enlighten me.

As debt goes, I don't mind so long as it's well spent and invested, and Trump has done neither, choosing to enrich himself and his wealthy donor friends as opposed to the American public, making for one of the most expensive, unnecessary and inefficient 'stimulus' the nation has ever seen.

Corruption and cronyism has probably never been worse and more explicit since perhaps the Gilded Age, and this is absolutely a problem; obviously this isn't a function of Trump by himself, but he is absolutely a major contributing factor per his appointments.

Concerning protest marches, I enjoy the sense of solidarity and the feel of working first hand towards an outcome I believe in. I staunchly support legislative and political goals that run contrary my personal economic interests, at least in the short to medium term, because I feel it's the right thing to do, and will make for a stronger, happier and more prosperous nation; not everyone looks inwards to their own directly selfish, short term ambitions.

I don't pray that Trump fails, but I certainly don't delude myself into the notion that he's somehow succeeding when everything screams otherwise.
 
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Born Free said:
NYC vs DC no comparison, NYC subway system is a pile of junk.
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DC is newer junk but junk just the same.

For the same reason, profound neglect over decades.

When our leaders could not be bothered to maintain huge critical transit systems is it any wonder that the leaders lost their followers?








I say no.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
"All things considered" meaning "With how long and profoundly the system has been neglected" I hope you mean.

Very few people claim that the system works well, even at its best it is slow and worn.

That it is not yet as stinky as it has been is not much of an argument.

The guts of the system have several more decades of age now.

$800 Million is just a Band-aid now.
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"All things considered" meaning the financial hardships the city underwent through the 70s and 80s. The system while dirty and poorly maintained, ran regularly. A part of the problem is the repairs disrupt service and in many cases subway lines which were once express run local and/or have suspended service.
 
ElChupacabra said:
"All things considered" meaning the financial hardships the city underwent through the 70s and 80s. The system while dirty and poorly maintained, ran regularly. A part of the problem is the repairs disrupt service and in many cases subway lines which were once express run local and/or have suspended service.
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You do understand that subways like everything else rot over time, that they need to be maintained, and when they are not properly maintained they get worse over time???

Fifty years down the line the subway has less strength of function, it functions less well, because it was not maintained anywhere near properly.

When subways are not maintained we to get to where DC is, where in order to fix it lines must be shut down for a year or more.

With all of the economic losses that inflicts upon the city.

With all the credibility the leaders then lose.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
You do understand that subways like everything else rot over time, that they need to be maintained, and when they are not properly maintained they get worse over time???

Fifty years down the line the subway has less strength of function, it functions less well, because it was not maintained anywhere near properly.

When subways are not maintained to get to where DC is, where in order to fix it lines must be shut down for a year or more.

With all of the economic losses that inflicts upon the city.

With all the credibility the leaders then lose.
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You mean the Subway Fairies don't magically fix them???

SHOCK

:shock:

HORROR

:eek:
 
OldFatGuy said:
Andy Cuomo spent $30mil of Fed money on a vanity tiling at the entrances to the Midtown Tunnel. New tiles had already been laid 3 months earlier. No one has yet named which of Andy's cronies got the job, after all per Andy "the Feds paid for it." Would have been enough to clean and repair leaks and drainage at 10 subway stations. Buffalo Billions Andy wants to be president.
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At least get the story straight. The Midtown Tunnel was retiled, part of extensive repair done both because of Sandy and 80 years of use. Opponents of Cuomo are now claiming that if only white tiles had been used, instead of a including a stripe of a colored tile, the job would be 30 million dollars cheaper. Well, the colored tile was part of the plan. I have no idea what you are referencing with tiles being laid 3 months earlier? Maybe the Post was spinning a bit. Interesting to see Cuomo get attacked over this by right wing Murdoch NY Post, and left wing crazy Cynthia Nixon. Makes one think Cuomo is probably in the right here.

$30 million is about one week a Mar-Lago, right?
 
ElChupacabra said:
You mean the Subway Fairies don't magically fix them???

SHOCK

:shock:

HORROR

:eek:
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Great, Now please explain to me why you are giving me an ancient history lesson on how the trains, while stinky and full of bums and graffiti, ran on time and faster 40-50 years ago (You might not know that the trains have been slowed thus capacity was reduced even on a good day, however few of them there are)?

After the accident, the NYCT also reduced the acceleration rates of the subway trains to match the rates of the older trains. Subways and regional trains around the world accelerate at 2.5 mph per second or even faster, but in New York acceleration is restricted to about 1 mph per second.

Unfortunately, these modifications to the operating procedure made the old signals less reliable. An MTA source explains that the NYCT did not always recalibrate the signals correctly for the reduced speed. Consequently, train drivers don't trust the signals and go even slower for safety. Train drivers have internalized this practice, and even when the signals are reliable they often go slower than they could, to give themselves a safety margin to avoid crossing a stop signal. Deceleration is supposed to still be quick, 3 mph per second, but in practice it seems to be closer to 2 mph per second. Reporting a problem with the signals is so difficult that the NYCT developed a culture of ignoring it until there's a crisis.
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https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/11/15949284/new-york-subway-crisis
 
ludin said:
I could careless what your prior response is.

There are things called facts.

Trump has already proposed a infrastructure bill to congress. A 5 second google search would have told you this.
That is as far as h can take it. There is nothing else as the president he can do.

It is then the job of congress to take the proposal and draft a bill and pass it for him to sign.
Congress either hasn't done this or refuses to.

So your whole anti-trump meme just fell apart.
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Correction, there is a lot he can do as president. He can harangue and intimidate the Congressman as he did for his attempts to repeal and replace Obamacare, and to pass his tax cut, and to approve his nominations, and to subvert judicial committees, etc. etc. This is also a fact.
 
ludin said:
That has no bearing on your argument in which you are blaming trump for something he has no control over.
He has proposed it. it is now in congresses hands and their job to draft or not draft a bill.

If they don't draft a bill or jam a bill in committee then there is little he can do to move it.
so blame congress for their inaction on the issue.

so as i said your anti-trump meme is blown apart by facts.
Click to expand...

He could attack Congress during one of his many rallies for inaction of his very important plan to improve infrastructure....ya know, like he screams about his wall?
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Great, Now please explain to me why you are giving me an ancient history lesson on how the trains, while stinky and full of bums and graffiti, ran on time and faster 40-50 years ago (You might not know that the trains have been slowed thus capacity was reduced even on a good day, however few of them there are)?


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/11/15949284/new-york-subway-crisis
Click to expand...

Having been a NYC subway rider most of my life, yeah I'm aware of the speed changes and many of the infrastructure issues the NYC subway faces. What I was pointing out was that during that time NYC's economic woes impacted the city's ability to address the subway system.
 
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