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Democratic socialist Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez ousts Joe Crowley in New York stunner, CNN projects

ttwtt78640 said:
OK, yet the US 'at large', and 'most of it', does not in favor more socialism which is 'largely', and 'mostly', why we don't have president Bernie Sanders.
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#1: You're wrong:

Poll: Medicare-for-all, public option, Bernie Sanders plan has support - Business Insider

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/01/over-60-of-americans-back-tuition-free-college-survey-says.html

https://www.salon.com/2017/01/14/am...ers-economic-policies-so-howd-we-end-up-here/

Poll: Bernie Sanders country?s most popular active politician | TheHill

Do Americans Agree With Bernie Sanders? (INFOGRAPHIC)

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/e...s/general_election_trump_vs_sanders-5565.html


#2: Bernie Sanders was thwarted by his own initial obscurity (the dude literally started out at ~3% vs Clinton's ~60% or so among Democrats), and a skewed primary meticulously engineered to favour Hillary (while existing in an egregious state of conflict of interest with the DNC having been literally financially bailed out by her), along with, by and large, an unfriendly media. It's telling also that he was significantly more popular among the general population than in the Dem party. A loss is a loss, but don't tell me he isn't president because he himself or his ideas aren't popular among a preponderance of Americans.


eohrnberger said:
Hell, everyone might be inclined to support socialism, up until the bill for it comes due.
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See it's funny because yes, while countries like Greece exist, there are also countries like Germany and Norway that are much more financially solvent than the States in terms of metrics like Debt to GDP.

Hell many of these 'socialist' countries are even considered more economically free by blatantly right wing sources like the Heritage Foundation.
 
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ttwtt78640 said:
What bill? When everyone works for the government then there is no longer need of taxation. The government decisions then become not how much of the yield from one's efforts do they get to keep, but how much does everyone (after taking very good care of the ruling elite, of course) get to share.
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I'm going to take a punt and say you are being sarcastic. K?
 
eohrnberger said:
I'm going to take a punt and say you are being sarcastic. K?
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Not at all. Why would you need taxes if everyone worked for the state?

Definition of socialism

1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
 
How come our socialist military never runs out of other people's money?
 
eohrnberger said:
'Cause money doesn't grow on trees?

TANSTAAFL.

It has proven through history itself as being economically unfeasible?

Take your pick.
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Except in all the places it works great
 
Surrealistik said:
#1: You're wrong:

Poll: Medicare-for-all, public option, Bernie Sanders plan has support - Business Insider

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/01/over-60-of-americans-back-tuition-free-college-survey-says.html

https://www.salon.com/2017/01/14/am...ers-economic-policies-so-howd-we-end-up-here/

Poll: Bernie Sanders country?s most popular active politician | TheHill

Do Americans Agree With Bernie Sanders? (INFOGRAPHIC)

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/e...s/general_election_trump_vs_sanders-5565.html


#2: Bernie Sanders was thwarted by his own initial obscurity (the dude literally started out at ~3% vs Clinton's ~60% or so among Democrats), and a skewed primary meticulously engineered to favour Hillary (while existing in an egregious state of conflict of interest with the DNC having been literally financially bailed out by her), along with, by and large, an unfriendly media. It's telling also that he was significantly more popular among the general population than in the Dem party. A loss is a loss, but don't tell me he isn't president because he himself or his ideas aren't popular among a preponderance of Americans.




See it's funny because yes, while countries like Greece exist, there are also countries like Germany and Norway that are much more financially solvent than the States in terms of metrics like Debt to GDP.

Hell many of these 'socialist' countries are even considered more economically free by blatantly right wing sources like the Heritage Foundation.
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Norway is like Alaska, the entire county is living off of the oil wealth they have, so not a typical situation or a good comparison.

A similar situation this is Venezuela, also sitting on huge oil reserves, socialist, and rapidly failing. I think the next thing is going to happen there will be military totalitarianism / dictatorial state.

The world is still lining up buy US debt, a good thing too since congress can't seem to curb it's spending habit, as the US sovereign debt sucks the least of all other sovereign debt, and is still considered reliable and stable.
 
vegas giants said:
Except in all the places it works great
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LOL. Right. We can see that in Venezuela.

All those who want to move the US to socialism should be required to live 2 years in a country where it exists, see if they really end up liking it.

No thanks. I'm happy to keep the regulated capitalistic system we have here in the US, and to make it better, remove more of the government market distortions, wherever possible and practical.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yep, this heavily demorat district will very likely remain so. The move to openly oppose capitalism in favor of socialism, however, is very likely to remain a rare event in even solid blue districts.
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Now that I think about it, whether she is a socialist or not she will vote however Pelosi tells her to. She reminds me of an beauty pageant contestant that says "I'm for world peach, want to end hunger and find a cure for cancer."
 
SDET said:
Now that I think about it, whether she is a socialist or not she will vote however Pelosi tells her to. She reminds me of an beauty pageant contestant that says "I'm for world peach, want to end hunger and find a cure for cancer."
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I thought that she was for 'whirled peas', but the herd mentality tends to be quite strong among congressional demorats.
 
eohrnberger said:
LOL. Right. We can see that in Venezuela.

All those who want to move the US to socialism should be required to live 2 years in a country where it exists, see if they really end up liking it.

No thanks. I'm happy to keep the regulated capitalistic system we have here in the US, and to make it better, remove more of the government market distortions, wherever possible and practical.
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Extremes are never good examples. This idea that a system focused on its people will automatically end up like Venezuela is a specious argument given the examples of other industrialized nations that do manage that kind of balance. Capitalism run amok can be equally destructive as we've seen in our own history. I agree that well regulated capitalism is the happy compromise, but the level of regulation is what's often in question where some feel it's better to reap rewards now at the expense of the future. Given the wealth generated in this country, I think there's room to push for more sustainable growth instead of risking our environment and financial well being for quick profits.
 
ElChupacabra said:
Extremes are never good examples.
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Agreed, as stated #35

This idea that a system focused on its people will automatically end up like Venezuela is a specious argument given the examples of other industrialized nations that do manage that kind of balance.
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Just one observation: Socialism <> "a system focused on its people"

I think Socialism is more about growing the power of the state at the expense of freedoms of the people, most often through government forced wealth redistribution.
Other opinions differ.

Capitalism run amok can be equally destructive as we've seen in our own history. I agree that well regulated capitalism is the happy compromise, but the level of regulation is what's often in question where some feel it's better to reap rewards now at the expense of the future.
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Quite true.

Given the wealth generated in this country, I think there's room to push for more sustainable growth instead of risking our environment and financial well being for quick profits.
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That's going to be a real challenge when generations of business leaders and Wall Street are all so focused on quarter to quarter earnings. Taking companies private avoid this, but come with different costs in doing this.
 
eohrnberger said:
Just one observation: Socialism <> "a system focused on its people"

I think Socialism is more about growing the power of the state at the expense of freedoms of the people, most often through government forced wealth redistribution.
Other opinions differ.
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Ideologies can be modified to fit what works for a specific country. Often people look at the extremes and the idea itself becomes tainted due to that. As an American, I like the idea of us contributing for the basic services which help us thrive and build the middle class we need to remain competitive. The current idea is those who rise in spite of adversity will be the cream of the crop, but the obstacles continue to increase and the wealth concentrated in the hands of a few.



That's going to be a real challenge when generations of business leaders and Wall Street are all so focused on quarter to quarter earnings. Taking companies private avoid this, but come with different costs in doing this.
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Yep, but that's the challenge and it will take our smartest people to figure it out. Fighting amongst ourselves isn't what will help.
 
ElChupacabra said:
Ideologies can be modified to fit what works for a specific country. Often people look at the extremes and the idea itself becomes tainted due to that. As an American, I like the idea of us contributing for the basic services which help us thrive and build the middle class we need to remain competitive. The current idea is those who rise in spite of adversity will be the cream of the crop, but the obstacles continue to increase and the wealth concentrated in the hands of a few.
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Contributing for basic services is already taking place in the US managed capitalistic system, as is a degree of wealth redistribution. The US had a thriving middle class up until the political elite went on a globalist binge, which drained the country of well paying middle class jobs. It appears that some of that is turned back, but we'll see how long that lasts and how deep that recovery.

The wealth concentration into the hands of the political elite is not only a pattern we see in the US system, it is also present in the Western Europe social democracies as well, and has been since the end of WW II.

Yep, but that's the challenge and it will take our smartest people to figure it out. Fighting amongst ourselves isn't what will help.
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Quite true.
 
eohrnberger said:
Norway is like Alaska, the entire county is living off of the oil wealth they have, so not a typical situation or a good comparison.

A similar situation this is Venezuela, also sitting on huge oil reserves, socialist, and rapidly failing. I think the next thing is going to happen there will be military totalitarianism / dictatorial state.

The world is still lining up buy US debt, a good thing too since congress can't seem to curb it's spending habit, as the US sovereign debt sucks the least of all other sovereign debt, and is still considered reliable and stable.
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What about France?

Denmark?

Canada?

Austria?

Switzerland?

Australia?

I'll note you didn't actually refute Germany's example either.

The list goes on.

Also Norway is nothing like Venezuela because it properly managed its oil wealth and responsibly diversified it into other ventures and investments; as of the time of this writing its sovereign wealth fund is worth more than 1 trillion and counting. The country, like Germany, is running budget surpluses for ****'s sake, has been with very few exceptions for more than 20 years (with no annual deficits to my knowledge, only quarterly), and this during and despite a significant depression in oil prices over the past couple.


eohrnberger said:
Contributing for basic services is already taking place in the US managed capitalistic system, as is a degree of wealth redistribution. The US had a thriving middle class up until the political elite went on a globalist binge, which drained the country of well paying middle class jobs. It appears that some of that is turned back, but we'll see how long that lasts and how deep that recovery.

The wealth concentration into the hands of the political elite is not only a pattern we see in the US system, it is also present in the Western Europe social democracies as well, and has been since the end of WW II.
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Wealth disparity exists globally, but it is nowhere near as high in most of Western/Northern Europe, not to mention they have better economic mobility with the exception of the UK.
 
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SDET said:
Now that I think about it, whether she is a socialist or not she will vote however Pelosi tells her to. She reminds me of an beauty pageant contestant that says "I'm for world peach, want to end hunger and find a cure for cancer."
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I'll believe it when the Dem party holds that exact same sway over Bernie's vote.

I don't see her being any less of a fire brand from what I've seen thus far. If she were nearly so compliant with the party establishment, people like Pelosi, and their media friends, wouldn't be trying to minimize and marginalize her win; establishment Dems wouldn't feel nearly so threatened by her success.
 
eohrnberger said:
LOL. Right. We can see that in Venezuela.

All those who want to move the US to socialism should be required to live 2 years in a country where it exists, see if they really end up liking it.

No thanks. I'm happy to keep the regulated capitalistic system we have here in the US, and to make it better, remove more of the government market distortions, wherever possible and practical.
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Like Norway, finland, holland, Sweden...
 
Surrealistik said:
I'll believe it when the Dem party holds that exact same sway over Bernie's vote.

I don't see her being any less of a fire brand from what I've seen thus far. If she were nearly so compliant with the party establishment, people like Pelosi, and their media friends, wouldn't be trying to minimize and marginalize her win; establishment Dems wouldn't feel nearly so threatened by her success.
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She will run her mouth and have no control over what votes are scheduled.
 
eohrnberger said:
LOL. Right. We can see that in Venezuela.

All those who want to move the US to socialism should be required to live 2 years in a country where it exists, see if they really end up liking it.

No thanks. I'm happy to keep the regulated capitalistic system we have here in the US, and to make it better, remove more of the government market distortions, wherever possible and practical.
Click to expand...

Venezuela's failure to diversify their economy, as well as personal corruption of officials, is not a condemnation of socialism, rather incompetent choices and unfortunate circumstance.

Next door socialist Bolivia is thriving:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...ollapses-socialist-bolivia-thrives-heres-why/

There's just one problem with all this bashing of socialism: Bolivia.

Since 2006, Bolivia has been run by socialists every bit as militant as Venezuela's. But as economist Omar Zambrano has argued, the country has experienced a spectacular run of economic growth and poverty reduction with no hint of the chaos that has plagued Venezuela. While inflation spirals toward the thousand-percent mark in Venezuela, in Bolivia it runs below 4 percent a year. Shortages of basic consumption goods — rampant in Caracas — are unheard of in La Paz. And extreme poverty — now growing fast in Venezuela — affects just 17 percent of Bolivians now, down from 38 percent before the socialists took over 10 years ago, even as inequality shrinks dramatically. The richest 10 percent in Bolivia used to earn 128 times more than the poorest 10 percent; today, they earn 38 times as much.
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There isn't anything innately wrong with socialism as you seem to think.




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SDET said:
She will run her mouth and have no control over what votes are scheduled.
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Per what evidence?

I'm not saying she's going to call shots right off the bat, but there is no way Cortez is going to blindly tow the party line or defer utterly to Pelosi.
 
It's important to remember Americas entire political grid is shifted to the right and that the policies that Sean Hannity called "scary" are actually moderate positions to the rest of the world.


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Winston said:
Venezuela's failure to diversify their economy, as well as personal corruption of officials, is not a condemnation of socialism, rather incompetent choices and unfortunate circumstance.

Next door socialist Bolivia is thriving:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...ollapses-socialist-bolivia-thrives-heres-why/



There isn't anything innately wrong with socialism as you seem to think.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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My, that's quite a glowing review of Bolivia. Who wrote that? Why, Francisco Toro did.

Caracas Chronicles is a group blog focused on Venezuelan news and analysis in English. Founded in 2002 by Francisco Toro,[1] its focus is on Venezuelan politics and economics in the Chávez and post-Chávez era. The website describes itself as "opposition-leaning-but-not-insane,"[1] and, according to an Associated Press article, though highly critical of Venezuela's socialist government, the site "doesn't spare the opposition".[2]
Francisco Toro is the editor of Caracas Chronicles.[1] He was joined in 2006 by Juan Nagel, a Venezuelan economist and professor at the Universidad de los Andes in Santiago, Chile.[3] In 2014, Caracas Chronicles became a group blog with the addition of other writers.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracas_Chronicles
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Meh, not so sure that I'd believe someone from Venezuela with a Venezuelan socialist perspective on the glories of socialism.

Seems Bolivia is coddling up with the Russians and the Chinese, wonder how long it'll be when that bites them in ass.

Bolivia owns a communications satellite which was offshored/outsourced and launched by Chinanamed Túpac Katari 1.[SUP][72][/SUP] In 2015, it was announced that electrical power advancements include a planned $300 million nuclear reactor developed by the Russian nuclear company Rosatom.[SUP][73][/SUP]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivia#Economy
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Without a doubt, it will bite them in the ass.

While a well managed government and economy (which is something that we've never seen here in the states under any administration), the question becomes how long will the good times last?

Hey, if you really are that much of an admirer, by all means, move there. Don't pretend that I'm stopping you.

For me:
turning-point-usa-socialism-ideas-so-good-that-they-have-31855319.png


Thanks but no.
 
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