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I’m not sure I buy the recent “sex trafficking rings everywhere “ narrative lately..

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ArtemisBarca

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Obviously from the title I think this post obviously deserves a disclaimer and to go ahead and state my little thesis up front..

Sex Trafficing: Forcing someone against their will to preform sex acts for profit or gain.

Sex trafficking ring: a group repeatedly forcing multiple people to preform sex acts for their profit or gain..

Thesis: That profit based sex trafficking rings like the movie “Taken” is almost extinct in America, and I think similar to my opinion on Illuminati type conspiracy theories. Focusing on those types of crimes that may or my not even exist in more than relative isolated incidents, I think distracts from the far more legit ways people could help.. like noticing the step dad from two doors down is a little too touchy feely.. and I think that is what most people think when they hear sex trafficking.


Disclaimer: first off this is not my pet , deeply heals theory.. more me spit balling.. and secondly, obviously rapists , serial killers, kidnappers and such exist, but “sex trafficking” by definition requires a profit based motive..so your serial killer like Todd Kollhep who kept victims captive in a container for sex would not apply..


To the point:

I’m not sure if “sex trafficking” is too broad a term, or being too liberally applied, but I don’t think the average joe’s opinions accurate..

So I have been on a big true crime kick lately and every time a female goes missing it seems as if sex trafficking is seriously investigated as a possibility..

I see nearly constant reminders claiming that “sex trafficking is real and everywhere..”


Well I was listening to a security specialist based in Mexico on , I think Joe Rogan who said something I found super interesting and I think would apply to sex trafficking as well..

“Ransom kidnapping is basically non-existent in America. It is no longer profitable. The penalty is too high, the technology too good, the US justice system’s memory is too long... and basically no one kidnapped in America for profit is ever released alive. Which negates anyone’s willingness too pay or not call the police..”

Well all of those same criteria would apply to sex trafficking as well, which is also a profit based crime involving kidnapping, right??

So if ransom kidnapping is too risky to still be profitable in the US, then how could sex trafficking remain profitable???

I don’t think it can...


I think what we really have rather than elite pedophile rings in every large town, are psychopaths kidnapping , raping and murdering people for their own sexual gratification, but that is not profit based. So that is not sex trafficking..

I wonder if legitimate signs of abuse are not being ignored right next door, while people spend hours online researching and fearing the threat of sex trafficking rings, that basically are a thing of the past and less developed countries.

Even if I am wrong and there are sex trafficking rings in every major US city, I’m still not sure more good couldn’t be done paying attention to the potential victims in your own neighborhood or even family..

I also wonder if it is not kinda a deflection from tptb so they ignore the sexual harassment and regular rapes that are so publicly being talked about now..

Basically..

“Don’t worry about those he said she said rape claims.. those regular tapes and child molestations are not the problem.... elite pedo rings are the real problem... so pay attention to them instead..”



Thoughts?














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Change the definition of the word "force", twist it to suit your needs, and voila, sex trafficking.
 
Russia just admitted to discovering a sex-trafficking ring from Nigeria that has been operating in Russia since the Sochi Olympics.
 
ArtemisBarca said:
Obviously from the title I think this post obviously deserves a disclaimer and to go ahead and state my little thesis up front..

Sex Trafficing: Forcing someone against their will to preform sex acts for profit or gain.

Sex trafficking ring: a group repeatedly forcing multiple people to preform sex acts for their profit or gain..

Thesis: That profit based sex trafficking rings like the movie “Taken” is almost extinct in America, and I think similar to my opinion on Illuminati type conspiracy theories. Focusing on those types of crimes that may or my not even exist in more than relative isolated incidents, I think distracts from the far more legit ways people could help.. like noticing the step dad from two doors down is a little too touchy feely.. and I think that is what most people think when they hear sex trafficking.


Disclaimer: first off this is not my pet , deeply heals theory.. more me spit balling.. and secondly, obviously rapists , serial killers, kidnappers and such exist, but “sex trafficking” by definition requires a profit based motive..so your serial killer like Todd Kollhep who kept victims captive in a container for sex would not apply..


To the point:

I’m not sure if “sex trafficking” is too broad a term, or being too liberally applied, but I don’t think the average joe’s opinions accurate..

So I have been on a big true crime kick lately and every time a female goes missing it seems as if sex trafficking is seriously investigated as a possibility..

I see nearly constant reminders claiming that “sex trafficking is real and everywhere..”


Well I was listening to a security specialist based in Mexico on , I think Joe Rogan who said something I found super interesting and I think would apply to sex trafficking as well..

“Ransom kidnapping is basically non-existent in America. It is no longer profitable. The penalty is too high, the technology too good, the US justice system’s memory is too long... and basically no one kidnapped in America for profit is ever released alive. Which negates anyone’s willingness too pay or not call the police..”

Well all of those same criteria would apply to sex trafficking as well, which is also a profit based crime involving kidnapping, right??

So if ransom kidnapping is too risky to still be profitable in the US, then how could sex trafficking remain profitable???

I don’t think it can...


I think what we really have rather than elite pedophile rings in every large town, are psychopaths kidnapping , raping and murdering people for their own sexual gratification, but that is not profit based. So that is not sex trafficking..

I wonder if legitimate signs of abuse are not being ignored right next door, while people spend hours online researching and fearing the threat of sex trafficking rings, that basically are a thing of the past and less developed countries.

Even if I am wrong and there are sex trafficking rings in every major US city, I’m still not sure more good couldn’t be done paying attention to the potential victims in your own neighborhood or even family..

I also wonder if it is not kinda a deflection from tptb so they ignore the sexual harassment and regular rapes that are so publicly being talked about now..

Basically..

“Don’t worry about those he said she said rape claims.. those regular tapes and child molestations are not the problem.... elite pedo rings are the real problem... so pay attention to them instead..”



Thoughts?














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Click to expand...

I would say sex trafficking is alive and well in the USA. Take a look at the 'asian massage'. I bet the vast majority of those women are not doing it because they want to.
 
KevinKohler said:
Change the definition of the word "force", twist it to suit your needs, and voila, sex trafficking.
Click to expand...

That is My thoughts kinda..




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Rogue Valley said:
Russia just admitted to discovering a sex-trafficking ring from Nigeria that has been operating in Russia since the Sochi Olympics.
Click to expand...

A) I specifically said America... the Russian justice system is stereotype shady.. aka maybe not as risky..

B) I would have to read the story to know if it were a real case, or someone who kidnapped 1 girl and passed them around to their friends..






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ArtemisBarca said:
A) I specifically said America... the Russian justice system is stereotype shady.. aka maybe not as risky..
Click to expand...

Then deal with this. The US State Department says that at any time, there are at least 50,000 sex trafficked people in the United States.

Miami and New York have many thousands from Haiti alone.
 
RAMOSS said:
I would say sex trafficking is alive and well in the USA. Take a look at the 'asian massage'. I bet the vast majority of those women are not doing it because they want to.
Click to expand...

How do you know they are being forced???

In America ONE call to the cops, or telling a John you are being forced makes the perp go to jail and likely gets the girl a book deal... AT LEAST.

Also once a parlor is busted, claiming you were being forced is a get out of jail free charge..and also may come with a book deal..

If they say they are there voluntarily it is a prostitution charge..

Hmmm which would your average platitude choose??

I do not see how you could be forcing people AND allowing them to enter act with the general public..

The risk would be too great for the parlor.


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Last edited:
Trafficked women are generally drugged. If you want a "girlfriend experience" and she isn't lucid, get the hell out. If you're in Colombia, Bolivia or Mexico, consider reporting it to authorities. If you're in the USA, reporting it is a bad idea because you'll be charged with being a John. If you want to spot a trafficked girl, just check if she can carry on a normal conversation.
 
ArtemisBarca said:
How do you know they are being forced???

In America ONE call to the cops, or telling a John you are being forced makes the perp go to jail and likely gets the girl a book deal... AT LEAST.

Also once a parlor is busted, claiming you were being forced is a get out of jail free charge..and also may come with a book deal..

If they say they are there voluntarily it is a prostitution charge..

Hmmm which would your average platitude choose??

I do not see how you could be forcing people AND allowing them to enter act with the general public..

The risk would be too great for the parlor.


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Click to expand...

One explanation would be that the gang leaders have some sort of "hold" on the "sex slave" such as parents or children outside the country. In short; blackmail.
 
Rising Sun said:
One explanation would be that the gang leaders have some sort of "hold" on the "sex slave" such as parents or children outside the country. In short; blackmail.
Click to expand...
What is more likely??

That someone from a dirt floor, 3rd world country would trade sex work to come to America, or your super risking kidnapping scenario???


I do not think that is a profitable business model in America.. one chink in the armor and all the MULTI-NATIONAL investment is gone..

In that scenario you need infrastructure on both sides of the ocean , including a legit brick and mortor business in America..





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ArtemisBarca said:
Sex Trafficing: Forcing someone against their will to preform sex acts for profit or gain.
Sex trafficking ring: a group repeatedly forcing multiple people to preform sex acts for their profit or gain.
Click to expand...
That is an incorrect definition. Sex Trafficking isn’t defined by desire for financial profit (though it will be commonly involved). Sex Trafficking is defined (literally) by “trafficking” – transporting people across national or regional borders. Your definition would be forced prostitution and could occur entirely in one place and therefore not be trafficking. Trafficking is really just one aspect of the wider problem.

ArtemisBarca said:
So I have been on a big true crime kick lately and every time a female goes missing it seems as if sex trafficking is seriously investigated as a possibility..
Click to expand...
Is it? I suspect the most times a female goes missing, we never hear about it because adults going missing is too common an occurrence for it to make any kind of major news. Specific speculation is generally only going to be based on some kind of reasoning (however flawed that reasoning may be).

And if by “true crime kick” you mean watching “documentaries” about specific incidents, you’re not getting anything close to an accurate impression of reality from that trash. They’re designed to entertain, not inform.

ArtemisBarca said:
I see nearly constant reminders claiming that “sex trafficking is real and everywhere..”
Click to expand...
That isn’t going to be about trafficking from the US and other western countries though, it’d be about trafficking in to them. A lot of it will be linked to the wider immigration issues, where people desperate to escape to a Western country will be willing to pay a lot of money to do that and if they don’t have the money, they end up in debt to the shady people smugglers. One way the immigrants may be expected to pay off that debt will be prostitution.

ArtemisBarca said:
Well all of those same criteria would apply to sex trafficking as well, which is also a profit based crime involving kidnapping, right??
Click to expand...
Not in the same manner though. People might be unwilling to pay direct ransoms these days but paying for sex continues to be as popular as it has always been.

ArtemisBarca said:
Even if I am wrong and there are sex trafficking rings in every major US city, I’m still not sure more good couldn’t be done paying attention to the potential victims in your own neighborhood or even family..
Click to expand...
I don’t see why it needs to be an either or. If someone is a victim they need help to escape and it doesn’t really make any difference whether they’re where they are because of an organised trafficking ring or an insane individual.
 
ArtemisBarca said:
What is more likely??

That someone from a dirt floor, 3rd world country would trade sex work to come to America, or your super risking kidnapping scenario???


I do not think that is a profitable business model in America.. one chink in the armor and all the MULTI-NATIONAL investment is gone..

In that scenario you need infrastructure on both sides of the ocean , including a legit brick and mortor business in America..





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Click to expand...

Your kidnapping straw man aside, the blackmail works like this; young girl seeks to come to America, eventually become citizen and then sponsor her family to come over. Gangs foot the bill and require her to be a sex slave for 10 years with the threat that they will harm her parents "in the old country" if she doesn't comply.
 
SDET said:
Trafficked women are generally drugged. If you want a "girlfriend experience" and she isn't lucid, get the hell out. If you're in Colombia, Bolivia or Mexico, consider reporting it to authorities. If you're in the USA, reporting it is a bad idea because you'll be charged with being a John. If you want to spot a trafficked girl, just check if she can carry on a normal conversation.
Click to expand...

That is still requiring a massive infrastructure to set up and run, and all of that investment Is gone the instant ANYONE speaks..

I do not think that is a viable business model..

Which is why we mainly see serial killer types doing it for their own gratification.. profit is not relevant then.


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SDET said:
Trafficked women are generally drugged. If you want a "girlfriend experience" and she isn't lucid, get the hell out. If you're in Colombia, Bolivia or Mexico, consider reporting it to authorities. If you're in the USA, reporting it is a bad idea because you'll be charged with being a John. If you want to spot a trafficked girl, just check if she can carry on a normal conversation.
Click to expand...

Nope...

There are good Sameratln laws that cover such things, and the person could report it unanimously..

Everyone who visits a massage parlor is not a married professional with oodles to lose.. I’m sure there are plenty of single nobodies with no personal life fears for reporting..

That said it is kinda irrelevant, because us thinking up some way where it could possibly work does not make it a viable business model.

Ps I am 100% not saying it is totally impossible, nor that in a semi isolated instance one might operate for awhile today in the US..

But that doesn’t sound like a serious threat to your average American female to me..


I am not totally discounting the accounts of people claiming similar things, but make no mistake it ONLY benefits them to say that...


For a hypothetical, let’s say epstien wasn’t really running elite pedophile rings, it was way more that he bought tons of hookers and being the black market, no one is checking IDs?!?!?

Well if you were a prostitute getting paid by epstien for his parties, are you gonna say....


A) “really he just didn’t check IDs..” and be considered a criminal prostitute?

Or

B) would you play into the conspiracy theories and claim to be the victim and potentially maybe even get rich and famous off book deals and speaking fees???


Back to your likely, drug fueled, dirt poor life as a criminal prostitute or be a hero fighting against elite pedophile rings???






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Rising Sun said:
Your kidnapping straw man aside, the blackmail works like this; young girl seeks to come to America, eventually become citizen and then sponsor her family to come over. Gangs foot the bill and require her to be a sex slave for 10 years with the threat that they will harm her parents "in the old country" if she doesn't comply.
Click to expand...

I do not see how that is a viable business model...

You have all the cost of paying for your gang in Columbia (for example) , the cost of transporting the girls, the business here, taxes, food, clothing and such....

And your putting all of that in jeopardy INSTANTLY BY LETTING YOUR KIDNAPPED VICTIMS TALK TO REGULAR CIVILIANS?!?!

Because they are being kidnapped now, even if lured to America under false pretenses..

I also have a hard time believing that the basics of the US justice system are not know by people wanting to come here.. meaning they should know just one word to a cop and they are free..

They may not know that it will likely come with a book deal and speaking fees, but it will..


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HonestJoe said:
That is an incorrect definition. Sex Trafficking isn’t defined by desire for financial profit (though it will be commonly involved). Sex Trafficking is defined (literally) by “trafficking” – transporting people across national or regional borders. Your definition would be forced prostitution and could occur entirely in one place and therefore not be trafficking. Trafficking is really just one aspect of the wider problem.

Is it? I suspect the most times a female goes missing, we never hear about it because adults going missing is too common an occurrence for it to make any kind of major news. Specific speculation is generally only going to be based on some kind of reasoning (however flawed that reasoning may be).

And if by “true crime kick” you mean watching “documentaries” about specific incidents, you’re not getting anything close to an accurate impression of reality from that trash. They’re designed to entertain, not inform.

That isn’t going to be about trafficking from the US and other western countries though, it’d be about trafficking in to them. A lot of it will be linked to the wider immigration issues, where people desperate to escape to a Western country will be willing to pay a lot of money to do that and if they don’t have the money, they end up in debt to the shady people smugglers. One way the immigrants may be expected to pay off that debt will be prostitution.

Not in the same manner though. People might be unwilling to pay direct ransoms these days but paying for sex continues to be as popular as it has always been.

I don’t see why it needs to be an either or. If someone is a victim they need help to escape and it doesn’t really make any difference whether they’re where they are because of an organised trafficking ring or an insane individual.
Click to expand...



A) I stated in the OP that sex trafficking was being applied far too broadly.. and it doesn’t get any more broad than your legitimate definition.


I did look up the definition before this post and it did include the “profit or gain” quote..

I’m not totally disagreeing with your definition as a real one, but it is a useless definition because it is just INSANELY broad..

By your definition of me and the wife go to Mexico for a hot weekend, that is sex trafficking. That is why I am pretty sure the “for profit or gain” is required . Though the first definition that popped up with a search I just did, did not include “for profit or gain”.

B) I agree about the accuracy of the documentaries, but I am quoting the detective’s being interviewed for the documentary, not the documentary itself..

But along with that I just see constant ted talks and other media attempting to draw attention to the problem..

I do not see many people attempting to draw attention to the far more local cases of sexual abuse.. such as where the step dad is molesting them....


I haven’t seen a PSA type thing on that kinda abuse in years.


C) I do not doubt your scenario about illegal immigrants who cannot pay.. but I’m not sure it 100% applies.

I do construction so work with lots of Mexicans of questionable status lol, and they say presently it is 8k to the cartel to cross and they hold you in a house till you/your family pays or they kill you. I wouldn’t doubt females having the option to “work it off”..

But I’m not sure they didn’t know that was the deal from the jump.. everyone I work with knows if they cannot pay they will be murdered...

So I bet the females making the trip know they will have to prostitute themselves if their money falls through.

Now maybe they do not want to prostitute, but they had to know if all goes wrong that is the outcome..

D) about the ransoms, I am not saying there is not Money to be made, I’m saying that the profit doesn’t out weigh the risk as a solo enterprise..

If you are smuggling people already for your business, and get the ones who cannot pay you to be prostitutes, that might work because the sex trafficking ring part is really just extra.. your bread and butter is the 8k per crossing..


I do not think a business solely depending on women being forced would be a profitable business..

I think the majority of parlors doing that would get busted before they ever paid their start up costs..

D) life is a zero sum game.. there are only so many hours in the day and energy to put into them... it is not infinite.

So I think it matters a boat load if most people are looking for the organized kind that statistically might not even exist, while ignoring the abuse on your own street.. you might catch the single mister kind..

Just as a hypothetical, assume elite pedo rings and such are a total myth.. how many hours do people put into researching them???

How many legitimate cases of abuse might be stopped if those hours were put into noticing the kid from 2 doors down’s step dad is too touchy feely???





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ArtemisBarca said:
I do not see how that is a viable business model...

You have all the cost of paying for your gang in Columbia (for example) , the cost of transporting the girls, the business here, taxes, food, clothing and such....

And your putting all of that in jeopardy INSTANTLY BY LETTING YOUR KIDNAPPED VICTIMS TALK TO REGULAR CIVILIANS?!?!

Because they are being kidnapped now, even if lured to America under false pretenses..

I also have a hard time believing that the basics of the US justice system are not know by people wanting to come here.. meaning they should know just one word to a cop and they are free..

They may not know that it will likely come with a book deal and speaking fees, but it will..


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Click to expand...

Great. So you are not only saying that never happens, but you know a better model? Please explain how you think it works.
 
Rising Sun said:
Great. So you are not only saying that never happens, but you know a better model? Please explain how you think it works.
Click to expand...

Nice deflection..

I have just repeatedly added disclaimer words to allow for an isolated incident, but if all there are are isolated incidents. Then it is not a problem that requires a ton of resources.


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Years ago (20+) I provided opinions on asylum claims for a human rights organization, and also investigated detention conditions in the US. Two incidents stood out: one was the case of an Asian woman who languished in a rural jail, so depressed and frightened that I was told her menstrual cycle shut down. I advocated for her release, and then discovered she was picked up and transported elsewhere by her smugglers. I also became aware of Asian smugglers moving women to the US with phony documents, and giving them babies to carry as props, under the theory that they would be less likely to have their documents looked at than if by themselves. I believe (hoped) that their smugglers were putting them to work in sweat shops in Chinatown and elsewhere, but never found out. So trafficking existed back then, at least.
 
Nickyjo said:
Years ago (20+) I provided opinions on asylum claims for a human rights organization, and also investigated detention conditions in the US. Two incidents stood out: one was the case of an Asian woman who languished in a rural jail, so depressed and frightened that I was told her menstrual cycle shut down. I advocated for her release, and then discovered she was picked up and transported elsewhere by her smugglers. I also became aware of Asian smugglers moving women to the US with phony documents, and giving them babies to carry as props, under the theory that they would be less likely to have their documents looked at than if by themselves. I believe (hoped) that their smugglers were putting them to work in sweat shops in Chinatown and elsewhere, but never found out. So trafficking existed back then, at least.
Click to expand...

That is not the trafficking portrayed in the movie “taken” which I believe is the average opinion..

I do not mean Saudi prince level, just an INVOLUNTARY victim forced into prostitution for profit repeatedly enough to consider it a viable business model..

I’m not sure most massage parlor and other prostitution busts where women claim they were involuntarily sex trafficked , are 100% reliable..

If they admit it was voluntary they go to jail..

Say it was trafficking, they are a victim and milligram even get a book deal..

That is as bias a choice as it gets.




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danielpalos said:
Do right wingers object to solving simple poverty because they will have to "put up with women for free"?
Click to expand...

No, but I doubt they would want to allocate 100 million dollars for the Antarctic immigrants that come here illegally..

Lol

The grander scale homeless would be the actual problem while the one immigrant from Antarctica is an isolated incident..

PS I am as anti-American conservatism as it gets


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ArtemisBarca said:
That is not the trafficking portrayed in the movie “taken” which I believe is the average opinion..

I do not mean Saudi prince level, just an INVOLUNTARY victim forced into prostitution for profit repeatedly enough to consider it a viable business model..

I’m not sure most massage parlor and other prostitution busts where women claim they were involuntarily sex trafficked , are 100% reliable..

If they admit it was voluntary they go to jail..

Say it was trafficking, they are a victim and milligram even get a book deal..

That is as bias a choice as it gets.




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Click to expand...

There is a third choice: they say they were trafficked and indeed were. Google “FBI reports on trafficking.”
 
Nickyjo said:
There is a third choice: they say they were trafficked and indeed were. Google “FBI reports on trafficking.”
Click to expand...

Those reports are all going to be from people who have every reason to lie..

Now that doesn’t at all mean they are lying.... but there is absolutely no benefit to saying,

“oh yea I knew the deal when I came here...Jesus Christ, my village didn’t even have indoor plumbing... “

So our witnesses are prostitutes with only benefits coming from saying they were being trafficked.






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