View Poll Results: Was Vietnam a just war?

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    10 23.81%
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Thread: Was Vietnam a just war?

  1. #541
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    Re: Was Vietnam a just war?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickyjo View Post
    Jefferson might object.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa View Post
    Dayton3 is doing his best to erase Jefferson and James Madison from US History, while he claims to teach US history to high school students.

    He is desperate to ignore the Articles of Confederation.

    As well as Geo. Washington and John Adams,
    Quote Originally Posted by Dayton3 View Post
    If you knew anything about the Treaty of Tripoli you would know that it was stated the U.S. was not founded on Christianity in order to make it clear to them that the U.S. had not been in conflict with them due to religion. It was not based in any way on the actual history or situation of the U.S.

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    Was Vietnam a just war?This discussion has nothing to do with the thread topic. Please relocate it to a more appropriate venue.
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  2. #542
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    Re: Was Vietnam a just war?

    Johnson: I will tell you the more, I just stayed awake last night thinking of this thing, and the more that I think of it I don't know what in the hell, it looks like to me that we're getting into another Korea. It just worries the hell out of me. I don't see what we can ever hope to get out of there with once we're committed. I believe the Chinese Communists are coming into it. I don't think that we can fight them 10,000 miles away from home and ever get anywhere in that area. I don't think it's worth fighting for and I don't think we can get out. And it's just the biggest damn mess that I ever saw.

    Bundy: It is an awful mess.

    Johnson: And we just got to think about it. I'm looking at this Sergeant of mine this morning and he's got 6 little old kids over there, and he's getting out my things, and bringing me in my night reading, and all that kind of stuff, and I just thought about ordering all those kids in there. And what in the hell am I ordering them out there for? What in the hell is Vietnam worth to me? What is Laos worth to me? What is it worth to this country? We've got a treaty but hell, everybody else has got a treaty out there, and they're not doing a thing about it.

    Bundy: Yeah, yeah.

    Johnson: Of course, if you start running from the Communists, they may just chase you right into your own kitchen.

    Bundy: Yeah, that's the trouble. And that is what the rest of that half of the world is going to think if this thing comes apart on us. That's the dilemma, that's exactly the dilemma.

    Johnson: But everybody that I talk to that's got any sense now they just says Oh, my God, please give us thought. Of course I was reading Mansfield's stuff this morning, and it is just Milquetoast as it can be. He's got no spine at all.

    Bundy: Yeah.

    Johnson: But this is a terrible thing that we're getting ready to do.

    Bundy: Mr. President, I just think it figure it is really the only big decision in one sense, this is the one that we have to either reach up and get it, or we let it go by. And I'm not telling you today what I'd do in your position. I just think that the most that we have to do with it is pray with it for another while.


    https://www.debatepolitics.com/redir...2Flbjbundy.htm



    Johnson had all kinds of domestic plans, like the war on poverty. He said he never really understood foreigners all that well.

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    Re: Was Vietnam a just war?

    Quote Originally Posted by BahamaBob View Post
    Doesn't a Fascist ignore the will of the people and rule by his pen and phone? Wouldn't a fascist send the IRS and Justice Department after his political enemies?

    He imprisoned Mark Basseley Youssef.
    He didn't ignore the will of the people. He embodied the will of the people. He won the popular vote. TWICE !! He ignored the will of the opposition Party that publicly stated that it was their POLICY to obstruct his every effort. Big difference. And there's no evidence that he sent the IRS and Justice Department after anyone. None whatsoever. ZERO!

    Where do you people get this nonsense from? Is it something in the water there?

  4. #544
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    Re: Was Vietnam a just war?

    Quote Originally Posted by MamboDervish View Post
    He didn't ignore the will of the people. He embodied the will of the people. He won the popular vote. TWICE !! He ignored the will of the opposition Party that publicly stated that it was their POLICY to obstruct his every effort. Big difference. And there's no evidence that he sent the IRS and Justice Department after anyone. None whatsoever. ZERO!

    Where do you people get this nonsense from? Is it something in the water there?
    Hmm, will of the people. Isn't congress an elected branch too? I always thought our government was made up of three separate branches. I guess I missed the part where the President can do anything he wants. We don't need no stinkin checks and balances. The good part is that is why Obama has no legacy. Anything that is done with a phone and pen can be undone the same way.

    Evidence is a strange thing. I am sure no guilty person ever got away with a crime. However, since you feel that way. It is good to know that Trump is totally innocent.

  5. #545
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    Re: Was Vietnam a just war?

    Quote Originally Posted by BahamaBob View Post
    Hmm, will of the people. Isn't congress an elected branch too? I always thought our government was made up of three separate branches. I guess I missed the part where the President can do anything he wants. We don't need no stinkin checks and balances. The good part is that is why Obama has no legacy. Anything that is done with a phone and pen can be undone the same way.

    Evidence is a strange thing. I am sure no guilty person ever got away with a crime. However, since you feel that way. It is good to know that Trump is totally innocent.
    LMAO - you think the people who elected congress did it because they wanted to obstruct the president ?? If Congress had any lower popularity than it has, it would be in negative numbers. The people who elected Congress do NOT approve of their actions, as proven by every poll taken over the past 20 years. And most of them hold their offices either because of gerrymandering, or the the fact that every state gets 2 Senators, even if it's total population can fit into one middle-income housing project in the Bronx. That has NOTHING to do with the will of the people - unless you just haven't left your echo chamber in a few years. If the Senate were a reflection of the will of the people, Obama would have had an overwhelming majority every day he was in office.

    I hate to wake you up, Van Winkle, but how's Trump's "much better, much cheaper" healthcare working out for you? Hmm? And how about his "drug prices will be so low, so fast, they will make your head spin!"?? Is your head spinning yet? No? How about now? Obama's LEGACY is that he provided the very first fundamental healthcare reform in my long lifetime, put 20 MILLION MORE AMERICANS on the healthcare rolls, AND IT'S STILL HERE !! Perhaps that's all too complicated for you. Here - I'll make it simple.

    OBAMA had a MANDATE!

    trump has no mandate!!

    Maybe you think Trump will bring bin Laden back from the dead, too?? (LMAO - I slay me!)

  6. #546
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    Re: Was Vietnam a just war?

    Quote Originally Posted by MamboDervish View Post
    LMAO - you think the people who elected congress did it because they wanted to obstruct the president ?? If Congress had any lower popularity than it has, it would be in negative numbers. The people who elected Congress do NOT approve of their actions, as proven by every poll taken over the past 20 years. And most of them hold their offices either because of gerrymandering, or the the fact that every state gets 2 Senators, even if it's total population can fit into one middle-income housing project in the Bronx. That has NOTHING to do with the will of the people - unless you just haven't left your echo chamber in a few years. If the Senate were a reflection of the will of the people, Obama would have had an overwhelming majority every day he was in office.

    I hate to wake you up, Van Winkle, but how's Trump's "much better, much cheaper" healthcare working out for you? Hmm? And how about his "drug prices will be so low, so fast, they will make your head spin!"?? Is your head spinning yet? No? How about now? Obama's LEGACY is that he provided the very first fundamental healthcare reform in my long lifetime, put 20 MILLION MORE AMERICANS on the healthcare rolls, AND IT'S STILL HERE !! Perhaps that's all too complicated for you. Here - I'll make it simple.

    OBAMA had a MANDATE!

    trump has no mandate!!

    Maybe you think Trump will bring bin Laden back from the dead, too?? (LMAO - I slay me!)
    I see you are a little naive. Yes people elect Congress to rein in an out of control president. Your precious Obama Care is a prime example of this. The people wanted no part of a Congress that would pass such a flawed piece of crap without even reading it. Yes we are still saddled with it. The middle class stuck paying for healthcare for millions of parasites. If the people are so against Congress, why do the continue electing the same people over and over again? I have never been that impressed by polls. I would rather think for myself. But to each his own. Many lemming like to let the DNC do their thinking for them.

    I see you deflect to Bin Laden when you have no valid arguments. How many American lives do you think all those Billions Obama gave Iran bought?

  7. #547
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    Re: Was Vietnam a just war?

    Quote Originally Posted by MamboDervish View Post
    LMAO - you think the people who elected congress did it because they wanted to obstruct the president ?? If Congress had any lower popularity than it has, it would be in negative numbers. The people who elected Congress do NOT approve of their actions, as proven by every poll taken over the past 20 years. And most of them hold their offices either because of gerrymandering, or the the fact that every state gets 2 Senators, even if it's total population can fit into one middle-income housing project in the Bronx. That has NOTHING to do with the will of the people - unless you just haven't left your echo chamber in a few years. If the Senate were a reflection of the will of the people, Obama would have had an overwhelming majority every day he was in office.

    I hate to wake you up, Van Winkle, but how's Trump's "much better, much cheaper" healthcare working out for you? Hmm? And how about his "drug prices will be so low, so fast, they will make your head spin!"?? Is your head spinning yet? No? How about now? Obama's LEGACY is that he provided the very first fundamental healthcare reform in my long lifetime, put 20 MILLION MORE AMERICANS on the healthcare rolls, AND IT'S STILL HERE !! Perhaps that's all too complicated for you. Here - I'll make it simple.

    OBAMA had a MANDATE!

    trump has no mandate!!

    Maybe you think Trump will bring bin Laden back from the dead, too?? (LMAO - I slay me!)
    Quote Originally Posted by BahamaBob View Post
    I see you are a little naive. Yes people elect Congress to rein in an out of control president. Your precious Obama Care is a prime example of this. The people wanted no part of a Congress that would pass such a flawed piece of crap without even reading it. Yes we are still saddled with it. The middle class stuck paying for healthcare for millions of parasites. If the people are so against Congress, why do the continue electing the same people over and over again? I have never been that impressed by polls. I would rather think for myself. But to each his own. Many lemming like to let the DNC do their thinking for them.

    I see you deflect to Bin Laden when you have no valid arguments. How many American lives do you think all those Billions Obama gave Iran bought?
    Moderator's Warning:
    Was Vietnam a just war?This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
    Our eagle once proud
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  8. #548
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    Re: Was Vietnam a just war?

    Quote Originally Posted by BahamaBob View Post
    I see you are a little naive. Yes people elect Congress to rein in an out of control president. Your precious Obama Care is a prime example of this. The people wanted no part of a Congress that would pass such a flawed piece of crap without even reading it. Yes we are still saddled with it. The middle class stuck paying for healthcare for millions of parasites. If the people are so against Congress, why do the continue electing the same people over and over again? I have never been that impressed by polls. I would rather think for myself. But to each his own. Many lemming like to let the DNC do their thinking for them.

    I see you deflect to Bin Laden when you have no valid arguments. How many American lives do you think all those Billions Obama gave Iran bought?
    No - actually I did make a valid argument. And you have made no counter argument rebutting mine. Trump has never had a popular mandate. Not even for a single day. Obama DID have a popular mandate. TWICE! Likewise, you have no cogent rejoinder against my point about how many people elect our Senators. Those points are not debatable, so don't bother trying. You claim that bin Laden was a deflection, and then promptly DEFLECT to Obama releasing Iran's withheld funds in exchange for nuclear restraint. What could be more feeble than that?

    I'll refrain from rubbing your face in it again, because it strays way off topic for this thread, and I don't wish to incur the wrath of the moderators telling us how far we've strayed.

  9. #549
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    Re: Was Vietnam a just war?

    Quote Originally Posted by swing_voter View Post
    I blame colonialism. No French colony, no divisions. No division, no civil war. No colony, Ho Chi Mihn decides to become a baker instead of a revolutionary. President Diem decides to become a Catholic monk like he always wanted to. And so on.
    Well, what's colonialism? It's a strong power expanding it's sphere of influence until it comes into contact with another strong power's sphere of influence. So if France - despite US assistance - couldn't keep Indochina within it's sphere of influence anymore, where does that leave the US? Either we filled the vacuum or China would have. Maybe Vietnamese nationalism was strong enough that they could have resisted China's pull... but do you figure that would have also held true in the other parts of the former French Indochina (ie, Laos and Cambodia)?
    "He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know." --- Lao Tzu

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    Re: Was Vietnam a just war?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    You dont seem to realize that the Radical Party (which was very close to communism) eventually did win power in France anyway and the French then decided to abandon Indochina in 1954, so it happened despite American support for their colonial war. The only reason we took over at that point was because Diem suckered us afterwards- just like the French did prior.



    Ive been to Vietnam, and Ive talked to many locals during my trips there. To this day they view China as the bigger enemy than the French or America ever was. The proof is that once Vietnam united North and South in 1975, they quickly moved away from China's sphere of influence, to the point where they even fought an actual war with each other.

    Ho Chi Minh was never a Chinese puppet- he believed in Vietnam's independence over all foreign domination.
    You're just looking at Vietnam in isolation, though. French Indochina encompassed a lot more territory than Vietnam. It also included Laos and Cambodia as well. So when the French withdrew and if we refused to fill the vacuum they left.... then who does fill it in Laos and Cambodia? The way I see it, the major difference between the Old Guard and the Young Turks in Hanoi is that the older generation would have turned a blind eye to what China did in Laos and Cambodia... the younger generation, though, would have allied themselves more closely with the Soviets and would have been more willing to oppose China's efforts in the region. Both generations would have seen Vietnamese nationalism as their primary goal, but each would have championed very different means of achieving it. But if you look at the situation that confronted the 1954 Geneva Conference, that trans-generational split (and the Sino-Soviet split which it reflected) was still 5-10 years in the future. I don't think there's any doubt that if we hadn't picked up where the French left off and attempted to fill the vacuum, that the whole region would have swung into China's sphere of influence.... either tacitly, in the case of a nationalistic Vietnam, or perhaps more explicitly in the case of Laos, and that would have led to intense pressure on Thailand and the Malaysian peninsula to follow suit.
    "He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know." --- Lao Tzu

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