"russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Instead

Litwin · May 25, 2020

"russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Instead

"russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Instead reality is much worst Pugabe´s "New " T 14 so called Armata Tank is PROPS

"“Having a military budget ten times smaller than that of NATO, we are achieving our objectives due to such efficient solutions,” Deputy Prime Minister Borisov noted in his comments, clearly trying to put a positive spin on the Armata news. In May 2018, the Kremlin had announced a new round of budget cuts, slashing annual defense spending by almost 20 percent from the previous year.

But there is also a possibility that these shortfalls have limited the resources to properly develop the T-14, as well. If the design is not mature, it would only make sense for Russia to decide to hold off mass producing the tanks. Otherwise, it could find itself face a "concurrency" dilemma by taking delivery of hundreds of armored vehicles that could need potentially significant and costly upgrades almost immediately."

Theatrical property - Wikipedia
Russia Can't Afford Its New T-14 Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Instead - The Drive

Jredbaron96 · May 25, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

This isn't anything new. The Russians have been modernizing and refurbishing their tanks for decades. And they're not the only ones.

Prior to the 2008 war with South Ossetia the Georgians spent millions upgrading their tank fleet with Israeli and Ukrainian assistance, to the point where they actually outgunned the Russian forces across the border. It ultimately didn't matter, but the Georgians were decked out.

The Ukrainians likewise have been pulling out their T-64s and renovating them. It's the first tank the Soviets made with the 125mm canon, so with an updated fire control system, optics, and some reactive armor it's still usable. It's not going to wipe the floor with a modern MBT but it can hold it's own.

Tigerace117 · May 25, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Litwin said:
"russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Instead reality is much worst Pugabe´s "New " T 14 so called Armata Tank is PROPS

"“Having a military budget ten times smaller than that of NATO, we are achieving our objectives due to such efficient solutions,” Deputy Prime Minister Borisov noted in his comments, clearly trying to put a positive spin on the Armata news. In May 2018, the Kremlin had announced a new round of budget cuts, slashing annual defense spending by almost 20 percent from the previous year.

But there is also a possibility that these shortfalls have limited the resources to properly develop the T-14, as well. If the design is not mature, it would only make sense for Russia to decide to hold off mass producing the tanks. Otherwise, it could find itself face a "concurrency" dilemma by taking delivery of hundreds of armored vehicles that could need potentially significant and costly upgrades almost immediately."

Theatrical property - Wikipedia
Russia Can't Afford Its New T-14 Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Instead - The Drive

So what? The older Russian tanks are still pretty damn good. Half the world uses them.

Dayton3 · May 25, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Tigerace117 said:
So what? The older Russian tanks are still pretty damn good. Half the world uses them.

Not because they are worth crap.

And the tanks in the picture at the parade are World War Two era T-34s. Nothing remotely modern.

Tangmo · May 25, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Russia lost 82% percent of its tanks in WW II.

If it weren't for Lend Lease they'd have lost 'em all cheap junk coffins that they were.

In which case Russia since 1945 may have ended up as the 51st state of the USA. (Or 49th at the time.) Or as perhaps a state of Germany in an armistice and concrete peace settlement. Right wingers everywhere would be tickled pink today that there'd be no EU or Nato and if there were an EU and Nato they would be smaller and completely different.

Lord only knows eh.

Tigerace117 · May 25, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Dayton3 said:
Not because they are worth crap.

And the tanks in the picture at the parade are World War Two era T-34s. Nothing remotely modern.

Actually, a lot of the Russian tanks over the years have been pretty solid.

It’s the training of foreign operators— not the equipment— which has been deficient.

beerftw · May 25, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Litwin said:
"russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Instead reality is much worst Pugabe´s "New " T 14 so called Armata Tank is PROPS

"“Having a military budget ten times smaller than that of NATO, we are achieving our objectives due to such efficient solutions,” Deputy Prime Minister Borisov noted in his comments, clearly trying to put a positive spin on the Armata news. In May 2018, the Kremlin had announced a new round of budget cuts, slashing annual defense spending by almost 20 percent from the previous year.

But there is also a possibility that these shortfalls have limited the resources to properly develop the T-14, as well. If the design is not mature, it would only make sense for Russia to decide to hold off mass producing the tanks. Otherwise, it could find itself face a "concurrency" dilemma by taking delivery of hundreds of armored vehicles that could need potentially significant and costly upgrades almost immediately."

Theatrical property - Wikipedia
Russia Can't Afford Its New T-14 Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Instead - The Drive

Russia has a history of making quality tanks that end up being anything but, the t-64 which had to stay near armories due to reliability problems, the t-80 which had a weakness in urban combat(why were they used in urban combat in the first place?) as well as having terrible range, and now the t-14. However inbetween they have had many successful and reliable tanks, the t-64 similar to the t-62 ended up using the tech for the t-72 and t-80, the t-90 was a t-72 modded with a t-80 turret. Currently a t-72 and a t-90 is only seperated by the turret as both can accept the newest upgrades.

This is not a surprise, the m1a is an old ass design as well, not much newer than the t-72 and t-80 yet still in service, all did this thing called upgrading, and no nation anywhere is going to trash a fully functioning platform to design something from the ground up when simple upgrades will achieve the same result.

The t-14 has promise, but the soviets and now the russians have bad luck doing a bleeding edge design from the ground up, they perform better with bleeding edge tech applied tp older proven designs, and they will likely do the same by taking the t-14 and apply it's tech to the t-72 and t-90.

also those tanks in the pic are t-34 tanks, russia keeps those around for victory day parades, not as active combat tanks, even you should know that but I assume you choose to ignore facts as they defeat your world perception.

Fledermaus · May 25, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Dayton3 said:
Not because they are worth crap.

And the tanks in the picture at the parade are World War Two era T-34s. Nothing remotely modern.

The Russians restored WWII T-34s specifically to celebrate WWII Victory.

Fledermaus · May 25, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Tangmo said:
Russia lost 82% percent of its tanks in WW II.

If it weren't for Lend Lease they'd have lost 'em all cheap junk coffins that they were.

In which case Russia since 1945 may have ended up as the 51st state of the USA. (Or 49th at the time.) Or as perhaps a state of Germany in an armistice and concrete peace settlement. Right wingers everywhere would be tickled pink today that there'd be no EU or Nato and if there were an EU and Nato they would be smaller and completely different.

Lord only knows eh.

Russian losses in the early war were obsolete junk.

The T-34 when introduced was the best medium tank in the world. The Germans had to modify PZIVs, rush the PZV Panther and PZVI Tiger into production. The KV-1s were nearly unbeatable early in the war. The T-34/85s and IS-2s would have devastated our fleet of M-4 Shermans.

The M-4 Sherman was introduced because of flaws in the M-3 Grant/Lee tanks. It was the M-3 Grant/Lee tanks that made up much of the armor sent to the Russians. Second rate tanks, second rate aircraft.

It was trucks and rail stock that helped save the Russians. Not mediocre tanks.

Casper · May 25, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Tigerace117 said:
So what? The older Russian tanks are still pretty damn good. Half the world uses them.

They have lost in Every conflict with US and European tanks. Good tanks for the past, now they are just kills on a tanks turret.

beerftw · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Casper said:
They have lost in Every conflict with US and European tanks. Good tanks for the past, now they are just kills on a tanks turret.

The battles between european and russian tanks can be limited to vietnam and the gulf war. In vietnam tanks were not a major player at all, and in the gulf war they were not well used and often inferior export designs and homebrew copies of soviet tanks.

The best examples on soviet tanks and aircraft comes from the arab israeli wars, where israel basically admits there was nothing wrong with soviet equipment, and they could have used soviet gear while the arabs used top of the line american gear and the outcome would have remained unchanged. The israeli conclusion was that the arab armies losses were not due to gear but incompetence, as even the best gear on earth is worthless if the user does not know how to effectively use it, saudi arabia and the uae show this today, they have taken masisve losses of tanks mraps apc's aircraft etc against yemen who is dirt poor and has no notable military infrastructure. To date however yemen houthis have held the upper hand, simply pointing out it is not the carberator but rather the operator.

Tigerace117 · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Casper said:
They have lost in Every conflict with US and European tanks. Good tanks for the past, now they are just kills on a tanks turret.

They did just fine against the Iranians’ American tanks during the Iran Iraq War, and in Cuban hands against the South Africans.

Tangmo · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

My posts reference Russian tanks specifically and all armored fighting vehicles of the Red Army 1941 - 1945 to include Lend-Lease.

From 1941 to 1945 Russia lost 82% percent of its tanks in combat. That is, throughout the whole of the war, not only at the beginning of the war. In its WW 2 from beginning to end, Russia lost 82% of its tanks. At the Eastern Front 1941-1945 the loss ratio of Russian tanks to German tanks was 3-1. That is abysmal.

Further, the Germans adapted fast and well to the two Soviet Russian Red Army tanks the Germans did not know existed at the beginning of their Operation Barbarossa in 1941, ie, T-34 and the KV.

The Russians had of course the home field advantage given Russia only won WW 2 in Russia and nowhere else: Russia did not win WW 2 in Europe, Russia did not win WW 2 in North Africa, and Russia did not win WW 2 in the Asia-Pacific to include China and Japan. Russia won WW 2 in Russia and in Russia only. Good on 'em for it yet the Red Army lost 82% percent of its tanks from 1941 through to May 1945.

Undoubtedly, it was a long way for the T-34 that the Red Army could ultimately win WW2. However, the price was enormous, as about 44,000 T-34 tanks (or 82 per-cent of total production) was a total loss. Russian arms production during WW2 amounted to 99,150 armored vehicles (including all kinds of assault guns, tank destroyers and self-propelled guns) from June 1941 to May 1945. There were also delivered [the additional] 11,900 tanks and self-propelled guns, which are part of Lend-Lease program by the Western Allies, ie, the United States.

The Russians also had the choice in the production of weapon systems during WW2: they were either able to carry out a mass production of lower quality or a lower production rate at a higher quality. They usually chose the quantity versus quality, but paid an extraordinary high price of human life for it. In the case of armored vehicles, this ‘price’ amounted to 96,500 tanks, compared to 32,800 German AFVs on the Eastern Front during the Second World War. This corresponds to a loss ratio of 2.94 to 1. The German losses also include all self-propelled vehicles, self-propelled artillery and several thousand vehicles, which were just captured when Germany surrendered. (emphasis added for anyone in scrolling who happens to be dense or evasive)

Russian vs German tanks in WW II > WW2 Weapons

Tigerace117 · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Tangmo said:
My posts reference Russian tanks specifically and all armored fighting vehicles of the Red Army 1941 - 1945 to include Lend-Lease.

From 1941 to 1945 Russia lost 82% percent of its tanks in combat. That is, throughout the whole of the war, not only at the beginning of the war. In its WW 2 from beginning to end, Russia lost 82% of its tanks. At the Eastern Front 1941-1945 the loss ratio of Russian tanks to German tanks was 3-1. That is abysmal.

Further, the Germans adapted fast and well to the two Soviet Russian Red Army tanks the Germans did not know existed at the beginning of their Operation Barbarossa in 1941, ie, T-34 and the KV.

The Russians had of course the home field advantage given Russia only won WW 2 in Russia and nowhere else: Russia did not win WW 2 in Europe, Russia did not win WW 2 in North Africa, and Russia did not win WW 2 in the Asia-Pacific to include China and Japan. Russia won WW 2 in Russia and in Russia only. Good on 'em for it yet the Red Army lost 82% percent of its tanks from 1941 through to May 1945.

Ah yes, that’s why it was Russian tanks which were rolling through the streets of Berlin to end the European theater, because Russia “only” won the fight in Russia :roll:

Tangmo · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Tigerace117 said:
Ah yes, that’s why it was Russian tanks which were rolling through the streets of Berlin to end the European theater, because Russia “only” won the fight in Russia :roll:

Ike gave it to the Russians to do given WW 2 for Russia existed only and virtually entirely on the roads and fields between Moscow and Berlin. Ike handed the Russians the flattened shell of a city, Berlin and a flattened country already completely defeated before the Russians got there -- Germany. The Russian Red Army also enslaved ravaged countries in eastern Europe that became satellites of the Russian Soviet Union.

So as I'd said in my post you quoted, the Russians had of course the home field advantage given Russia only won WW 2 in Russia and nowhere else: Russia did not win WW 2 in Europe, Russia did not win WW 2 in North Africa, and Russia did not win WW 2 in the Asia-Pacific to include China and Japan. Russia won WW 2 in Russia and in Russia only. Good on 'em for it yet the Red Army lost 82% percent of its tanks from 1941 through to May 1945.

The road of combat outside of Russia stopped at Berlin in spring 1945 and went nowhere else, save a stab here and a stab there by the Red Army. The Red Army in the Far East ran over Manchuko / Manchuria while Japan was on fire because of US Army Air Force firebombings that were to be the prelude to the US invading Japan. All that came to a close however on August 6 and 9th 1945.

Still I got to hand it to the Russia boosters that they never quit at it. Not ever.

Litwin · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

beerftw said:
Russia has a history of making quality tanks that end up being anything but, the t-64 which had to stay near armories due to reliability problems, the t-80 which had a weakness in urban combat(why were they used in urban combat in the first place?) as well as having terrible range, and now the t-14. However inbetween they have had many successful and reliable tanks, the t-64 similar to the t-62 ended up using the tech for the t-72 and t-80, the t-90 was a t-72 modded with a t-80 turret. Currently a t-72 and a t-90 is only seperated by the turret as both can accept the newest upgrades.

This is not a surprise, the m1a is an old ass design as well, not much newer than the t-72 and t-80 yet still in service, all did this thing called upgrading, and no nation anywhere is going to trash a fully functioning platform to design something from the ground up when simple upgrades will achieve the same result.

The t-14 has promise, but the soviets and now the russians have bad luck doing a bleeding edge design from the ground up, they perform better with bleeding edge tech applied tp older proven designs, and they will likely do the same by taking the t-14 and apply it's tech to the t-72 and t-90.

also those tanks in the pic are t-34 tanks, russia keeps those around for victory day parades, not as active combat tanks, even you should know that but I assume you choose to ignore facts as they defeat your world perception.

can you give me couple of examples? not soviet (Marxist utopia with its reversing engineering and useful idiots who provided Marxist utopia with our secret technologies for free ) but Russia has a history of making quality tanks

Litwin · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Jredbaron96 said:
This isn't anything new. The Russians have been modernizing and refurbishing their tanks for decades. And they're not the only ones.

Prior to the 2008 war with South Ossetia the Georgians spent millions upgrading their tank fleet with Israeli and Ukrainian assistance, to the point where they actually outgunned the Russian forces across the border. It ultimately didn't matter, but the Georgians were decked out.

The Ukrainians likewise have been pulling out their T-64s and renovating them. It's the first tank the Soviets made with the 125mm canon, so with an updated fire control system, optics, and some reactive armor it's still usable. It's not going to wipe the floor with a modern MBT but it can hold it's own.

whats about Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks?

Litwin · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Tangmo said:
Russia lost 82% percent of its tanks in WW II.

If it weren't for Lend Lease they'd have lost 'em all cheap junk coffins that they were.

In which case Russia since 1945 may have ended up as the 51st state of the USA. (Or 49th at the time.) Or as perhaps a state of Germany in an armistice and concrete peace settlement. Right wingers everywhere would be tickled pink today that there'd be no EU or Nato and if there were an EU and Nato they would be smaller and completely different.

Lord only knows eh.

+1
red army even had the special name for soviet tanks - the death trap

Litwin · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Fledermaus said:
The Russians restored WWII T-34s specifically to celebrate WWII Victory.

why you don't use official stalinist term for WW2? (which hides koba´s alliance with hitler in 1939-1941)

Litwin · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Tigerace117 said:
They did just fine against the Iranians’ American tanks during the Iran Iraq War, and in Cuban hands against the South Africans.

got any link ?

Litwin · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Casper said:
They have lost in Every conflict with US and European tanks. Good tanks for the past, now they are just kills on a tanks turret.

+1, anyone who used a technological product made in "russia" knows that its totally useless even in form of copies of our products

The Battle around the Pusan Perimeter during 1950 saw a showdown between the relatively untried American Pershing tank and the battle-hardened North Korean T-34/85. Neither had encountered each other before, but the outcome would establish who had the best armour during the rest of the Korean conflict, with important consequences. Find out the winner...

Fledermaus · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Litwin said:
why you don't use official stalinist term for WW2? (which hides koba´s alliance with hitler in 1939-1941)

Why don't you learn history.

The Soviets stomped Hitler and his Lithuanian lackies.

Fledermaus · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Litwin said:
+1, anyone who used a technological product made in "russia" knows that its totally useless even in form of copies of our products

The Battle around the Pusan Perimeter during 1950 saw a showdown between the relatively untried American Pershing tank and the battle-hardened North Korean T-34/85. Neither had encountered each other before, but the outcome would establish who had the best armour during the rest of the Korean conflict, with important consequences. Find out the winner...

Tanks are another thing you are clueless about.

Litwin · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Fledermaus said:
Why don't you learn history.

The Soviets stomped Hitler .

buy a book grandpa

or you want like your friends say that Molotov- Ribbentrop_Pact was an attempt to do something good? Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia

Litwin · May 26, 2020

Re: "russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Inst

Fledermaus said:
Tanks are another thing you are clueless about.

1 Tiger Tank vs 50 T-34s - A True Story. tell me something what i don't know about "russians" and quality of "russian" work ?

"russia" Cant Afford Its "New " T 14 so called Armata Tanks, Turns To Updated Older Designs Instead

Litwin

Jredbaron96

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Tigerace117

Dayton3

Tangmo

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beerftw

proud ammosexual

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Tigerace117

Tangmo

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Tangmo

Litwin

Litwin

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