17 Sailors and Six Marines Died in Avoidable Accidents. Congress Asks: Are the Problems Fixed?

beerftw · Feb 15, 2020

braindrain said:
Oh my god I really don’t even know where to start with this.

I am sorry but if your brother went anytime in the last twenty years or so then he was telling you a bs story. This is startling to sound a lot like your guy on a profile who got kicked out for failing a PT test story. It’s simply not true.

There isn’t even a rucksack on the packing list for airborne school. You really need to stop believing everything you are told.
Here look for yourself
Fort Benning | Basic Airborne Course (BAC)

There is no rucking in Airborne. None. Not a single one. Not from where the bus stops and not any where else.

And a large percentage of the people attending airborne don’t even ride a bus there. They drive their own cars. Airborne school is not just for people straight out of basic. You were fed a line of garbage.

Nor are pull ups part of the Airborne school pt test. All you need is a 180 on your pt tests. And the Army can not fail you from a school for doing something that is not a requirement. That’s not how the Army works. I swear junior enlisted come up with the silliest stuff.

And no one who has been to airborne in decades is claiming the runs are 7 minute pace runs.
But don’t just take my word for it. Let’s see what others say.

AIRBORNE SCHOOL | Baseops

A typical daily PT session includes warm up exercises, calisthenics, guerilla/grass drills or a 3.2 to 4 mile formation run. Males and females run in the same formation during PT and the average pace is 9-minutes per mile.

Here are 10 things everyone experiences in jump school - Americas Military Entertainment Brand

This shuffle refers to the pace or speed of a formation run during Airborne school. It is typically about a 9-minute mile.

Airborne school is ridiculously easy and has been that way for a long time.

It has nothing to do with numbers or anything else. We haven’t needed large numbers of Airborne soldiers for quite sometime and yet overweight males and females who can barely run graduate from airborne school every week.

You really should stop talking about things you have no idea on because it really makes you look silly.
It’s things like this that make senior NCOs just laugh and shake their head when the hear privates telling stories.

A large percentage do ride the bus there, as personal vehicles are only allowed in permissive tdy, while those in initial training are not allowed pov's since they they have not reported in to a permanent duty station yet for the first time, for initial training it works the same as ait, ie reclasses or those training after initial training get extra leniency, while those on initial training get treated like they are still in basic training with a little more freedom.

You do not need a rucksack perse to perform a ruckmarch, either way he had whatever gear was issued to him, he went to fort sill, then fort lost in the woods, then to a course forget the name basically the infantry ait portion of osut since he did not go to benning then airborne school then to fort brag.

It also sounds bad for you to not get the running experience either, but in terms of numbers yes they were in shortage, around 2006 when you claim the army was handing out major bonuses because the iraq and afghan wars and constant rotations was resulting in low retention rates, this is why fatass people could go years without passing a pt test or meeting standards under bush but under obama as the wars dwindled down the ranks ended up getting purged and standards enforced again, they no longer had to worry about a quota with both the recession bringing in new recruits and the wars dwindling down require less soldiers on constant rotations and long deployments.

Also you just pulled up some websites outlining what training should be, I will tell you now those sites do not mean crap, upon entering basic training I found actual training to be nothing like the army website and found each battalion and company in tradoc had different ways of doing things

braindrain · Feb 15, 2020

beerftw said:
A large percentage do ride the bus there, as personal vehicles are only allowed in permissive tdy, while those in initial training are not allowed pov's since they they have not reported in to a permanent duty station yet for the first time, for initial training it works the same as ait, ie reclasses or those training after initial training get extra leniency, while those on initial training get treated like they are still in basic training with a little more freedom.

You do not need a rucksack perse to perform a ruckmarch, either way he had whatever gear was issued to him, he went to fort sill, then fort lost in the woods, then to a course forget the name basically the infantry ait portion of osut since he did not go to benning then airborne school then to fort brag.

It also sounds bad for you to not get the running experience either, but in terms of numbers yes they were in shortage, around 2006 when you claim the army was handing out major bonuses because the iraq and afghan wars and constant rotations was resulting in low retention rates, this is why fatass people could go years without passing a pt test or meeting standards under bush but under obama as the wars dwindled down the ranks ended up getting purged and standards enforced again, they no longer had to worry about a quota with both the recession bringing in new recruits and the wars dwindling down require less soldiers on constant rotations and long deployments.

Also you just pulled up some websites outlining what training should be, I will tell you now those sites do not mean crap, upon entering basic training I found actual training to be nothing like the army website and found each battalion and company in tradoc had different ways of doing things

It’s rather funny that you are trying to educate me on a topic that I have already demonstrated you have almost zero actual knowledge on while I have actually been there.
I am well aware of who goes to airborne school and who is allowed cars and who isn’t. It’s why I said not everyone goes to airborne right out of basic.

And yes you do need a ruck to do a ruck march. You are just getting sillier and sillier as more of your nonsense is shown to be wrong. And all the people coming from AIT at Benning have zero issued gear other then their uniforms. So tell me more about this ruck march.

And yes the military needed people but there was no need for large numbers of airborne soldiers. A large percentage of the people who go to airborne don’t even go to an airborne unit afterwards.

It’s funny you try and claim that they are doing 7 minute or faster runs despite never going to the school and having zero to back up your claim. Meanwhile I have been to the school, was in the 82nd and am still in a unit that every single person has been to airborne and also provided links talking about what to expect at that school but somehow you just keep up with the nonsense

Look I get it you don’t want to admit you are wrong and will just keep up the game no matter how silly it makes you look but at some point you really should just stop. You got caught talking out your butt. Best thing to do is just man up and admit it.

beerftw · Feb 17, 2020

braindrain said:
It’s rather funny that you are trying to educate me on a topic that I have already demonstrated you have almost zero actual knowledge on while I have actually been there.
I am well aware of who goes to airborne school and who is allowed cars and who isn’t. It’s why I said not everyone goes to airborne right out of basic.

And yes you do need a ruck to do a ruck march. You are just getting sillier and sillier as more of your nonsense is shown to be wrong. And all the people coming from AIT at Benning have zero issued gear other then their uniforms. So tell me more about this ruck march.

And yes the military needed people but there was no need for large numbers of airborne soldiers. A large percentage of the people who go to airborne don’t even go to an airborne unit afterwards.

It’s funny you try and claim that they are doing 7 minute or faster runs despite never going to the school and having zero to back up your claim. Meanwhile I have been to the school, was in the 82nd and am still in a unit that every single person has been to airborne and also provided links talking about what to expect at that school but somehow you just keep up with the nonsense

Look I get it you don’t want to admit you are wrong and will just keep up the game no matter how silly it makes you look but at some point you really should just stop. You got caught talking out your butt. Best thing to do is just man up and admit it.

You may be correct that you have been there and I have not, however your fallacy is assuming your experience is the be all end all, I can not guarantee anything I have been told is 100% how it is as it is second hand, however in the past your knowledge on topics has been lacking of the general military and infantry and your posts geared towards special forces like you view special forces as the only military, to how you come off is how the sf complex I aided as well as former sf describe as an xray, Ie mos specific sf, and by older sf considered inferior to not mos specificly joined sf as they lacked general army experience and jumped straight in to the 18x mos, much like a truck driver who jumped into a semi truck without ever once driving a car beforehand.

On rucks no you do not need a rucksack, you can do a ruckmarch with an assault pack as well, granted that would depend on actually having an assault pack or ruck sack for airborne training, now everyone I have ever talked to may be lying, or everyone get's different training and you are stuck in a very tight network of sf completely isolated from the regular army, either way what I have heard and what you say do not match up, you can accept this or not I really do not care.

But if you absolutely wish to continue be aware I do not just simply back down simply by the way you talk, I have dealt with people far more aggressive in their stance in the past, I have even dealt with psyop people, to me coming at me with the stance you do does not tell me you know everything army but rather your army experience is isolated to a tiny fragment of the army and that you are seeking aknowledgement for your stance rather than any meaningful debate, if you wish to continue such debate bring it on, I have no shame in going dirty if need be.

braindrain · Feb 18, 2020

beerftw said:
You may be correct that you have been there and I have not, however your fallacy is assuming your experience is the be all end all, I can not guarantee anything I have been told is 100% how it is as it is second hand, however in the past your knowledge on topics has been lacking of the general military and infantry and your posts geared towards special forces like you view special forces as the only military, to how you come off is how the sf complex I aided as well as former sf describe as an xray, Ie mos specific sf, and by older sf considered inferior to not mos specificly joined sf as they lacked general army experience and jumped straight in to the 18x mos, much like a truck driver who jumped into a semi truck without ever once driving a car beforehand.

On rucks no you do not need a rucksack, you can do a ruckmarch with an assault pack as well, granted that would depend on actually having an assault pack or ruck sack for airborne training, now everyone I have ever talked to may be lying, or everyone get's different training and you are stuck in a very tight network of sf completely isolated from the regular army, either way what I have heard and what you say do not match up, you can accept this or not I really do not care.

But if you absolutely wish to continue be aware I do not just simply back down simply by the way you talk, I have dealt with people far more aggressive in their stance in the past, I have even dealt with psyop people, to me coming at me with the stance you do does not tell me you know everything army but rather your army experience is isolated to a tiny fragment of the army and that you are seeking aknowledgement for your stance rather than any meaningful debate, if you wish to continue such debate bring it on, I have no shame in going dirty if need be.

Where has my knowledge of the military or the infantry been lacking. Please be specific just don’t make things up.

And while you are right that my direct knowledge is of only the time I was at airborne however my entire career has been entirely around people who have been to airborne school and that is people who went rather recently and guys who went a decade or more before I went to the school. Not a single one has ever mentioned airborne being hard and many many have talked about what a joke it is. And the slow ass runs are a bit of a running joke.

I don’t at all think special forces is the only military. That is you just seeing what you want to see. I admit I do talk about SF more then any other part of the military but that is only because that has been the majority of my experience. And it’s hard to be an 18X when you have served in the 82nd as an 11B for two years. But I get you want to try and find an excuse to disregard what I say.

Doesn’t matter if you do a ruck with a ruck sack or an assault pack you still need something. And you are issued nothing at airborne and you are not required to bring anything. Proving your claims to be wrong.
And pretending that everyone I have served with is some speared network despite people in SF coming from all over the Army with the all of them having gone to airborne before SF. And that’s not even mentioning the fact even 18xs get mixed in with everyone else and get the exact same training as everyone else.

I could care less if you back away from your completely false claims. In fact I encourage you not to as I am interested to see just how long you will continue to make yourself look foolish.
And if you think I have been aggressive towards you at all then you need to grow some thicker skin.

And if all I was doing was seeking acknowledgement of my stance rather than any meaningful debate then I would simply say you are wrong and leave it at that. But instead I have posted links backing up what I claim. But you are right there is no real debate as you are simply completely wrong.

And furthermore this really points to your general knowledge of how the Army works. Official Army schools work off a set poi and strict guidelines. One class is not doing 12 mile rucks and failing people for not maintaining a 7 minute pace on runs while another class does 9 minute pace runs.

This is the problem when private’s try and act like they know all about the Army.

Put please continue and get as dirty as you want. You will only continue to embarrass yourself.

Rexedgar · Feb 18, 2020

Jump School was three weeks, IIRC.

First week they separate the men from the boys.

Second week they separate the men from the fools.

Third week the fools jump!

vegas giants · Feb 18, 2020

apdst said:
This is what happens when general/flag officers are promoted because of their loyalty to the party and it's ideology rather than their skill as commanders.

I know. Trump has done a lot of damage

Jredbaron96 · Feb 18, 2020

Rexedgar said:
Jump School was three weeks, IIRC.

First week they separate the men from the boys.

Second week they separate the men from the fools.

Third week the fools jump!

There is no amount of money on God's green earth you could pay me that would convince me to jump out a perfectly good airplane.

Rexedgar · Feb 18, 2020

Jredbaron96 said:
There is no amount of money on God's green earth you could pay me that would convince me to jump out a perfectly good airplane.

True story; The weekend between tower and jump week, I stayed at the post pool way too long. It was July. Monday after getting fitted with my chute, we had to sit on wood benches until it was our turn to get on the plane. It seemed like days, especially with a severe sunburn. When we finally lined up, we got on an ancient looking old wreck, (C-123, I think.) We taxied out to where they run up the engines before take-off. Parts literally began falling of the interior of the airframe. After a few minutes we had to taxi back to the ramp and get on another plane. This was the first of five qualifying jumps......

Glitch · Feb 18, 2020

Rogue Valley said:
17 Sailors and Six Marines Died in Avoidable Accidents. Congress Asks: Are the Problems Fixed?

After ProPublica wrote about inadequate training and faulty equipment, lawmakers grilled Navy and Marine leaders about the accidents and whether America is ready for war.

Congress needs to strengthen its understandings of military preparedness and safety concerns. With the huge taxpayer layouts, anything less than optimal is not acceptable.

The military and safety concerns seems almost an oxymoron. The profession by its nature is going to be prone to many accidental deaths and injuries. For example, between fiscal years 1989 and 1991 the "DOD reported 6,833 deaths of active duty military personnel, including those who died during Operation Desert Storm. Of this total, 3,941 deaths were classified as accidental." They placed 58% of the deaths as being accidental, 17.7% due to illness or disease, 14.0% due to suicide, 4.8% as a result of homicide, 3% as "other," and only 2.5% of the deaths were combat related.

Source: Military Training: DOD Training Fatalities for Fiscal Years 1988 Through 1991

Oozlefinch · Feb 18, 2020

Glitch said:
The military and safety concerns seems almost an oxymoron. The profession by its nature is going to be prone to many accidental deaths and injuries. For example, between fiscal years 1989 and 1991 the "DOD reported 6,833 deaths of active duty military personnel, including those who died during Operation Desert Storm. Of this total, 3,941 deaths were classified as accidental." They placed 58% of the deaths as being accidental, 17.7% due to illness or disease, 14.0% due to suicide, 4.8% as a result of homicide, 3% as "other," and only 2.5% of the deaths were combat related.

Source: Military Training: DOD Training Fatalities for Fiscal Years 1988 Through 1991

But there is a big statistic you missed inside of that report.

We determined from data provided by DOD and the military services that 752, or 19 percent, of the 3,94 1 accidental deaths occurred as a result of military training activities. These training deaths occurred in 397 separate training mishaps.

As is usually the case, off-duty accidents account for around 80% of military fatalities. One of my jobs at one point was to go through the accident reports every Monday, and break them down for our sub-units. Included would be copies of the full report if it was particularly noteworthy. Traffic accidents was always top of the list, but there were other things in common that could often be pointed out. Alcohol use, firearms, even criminal activity. And of course just the stupid ones.

One that I still remember over a decade later was a guy who was cutting a tree, and realized it was going to fall in the road. He ran out to try and block traffic, and was hit and killed by the tree. Another was a guy that said he could jump over a moving car. So his buddy drove at him, at 60 MPH.

Glitch · Feb 18, 2020

Oozlefinch said:
But there is a big statistic you missed inside of that report.

As is usually the case, off-duty accidents account for around 80% of military fatalities. One of my jobs at one point was to go through the accident reports every Monday, and break them down for our sub-units. Included would be copies of the full report if it was particularly noteworthy. Traffic accidents was always top of the list, but there were other things in common that could often be pointed out. Alcohol use, firearms, even criminal activity. And of course just the stupid ones.

One that I still remember over a decade later was a guy who was cutting a tree, and realized it was going to fall in the road. He ran out to try and block traffic, and was hit and killed by the tree. Another was a guy that said he could jump over a moving car. So his buddy drove at him, at 60 MPH.

Accidental deaths don't necessarily mean training deaths, I have no problem believing the overwhelming majority of accidental deaths are not military related, and even those that are do not necessary concerning training. I remember one training exercise at Twenty-Nine Palms when 5 Marines died after their jeep broke down and they decided it would be a good idea run back to base in 110°F heat, but most of the deaths were the result of snake bites. Even still, the number of total deaths was a tiny fraction of those involved in the exercise, and reasonably expected when in that environment under those conditions. The military by its very nature is inherently dangerous, even during peacetime.

PirateMk1 · Feb 18, 2020

Rexedgar said:
True story; The weekend between tower and jump week, I stayed at the post pool way too long. It was July. Monday after getting fitted with my chute, we had to sit on wood benches until it was our turn to get on the plane. It seemed like days, especially with a severe sunburn. When we finally lined up, we got on an ancient looking old wreck, (C-123, I think.) We taxied out to where they run up the engines before take-off. Parts literally began falling of the interior of the airframe. After a few minutes we had to taxi back to the ramp and get on another plane. This was the first of five qualifying jumps......

Welp its a good thing you had a parachute and were planning on leaving the plane anyhow. At least you could say you weren't jumping out of a perfectly good airplane.

Oozlefinch · Feb 19, 2020

Rexedgar said:
When we finally lined up, we got on an ancient looking old wreck, (C-123, I think.)

One of the most interesting aircraft in the US military inventory.

The C-123 was originally designed as a large Assault Glider after WWII. Originally built as the XG-20, it was to be a replacement for the outdated gliders of WWII. But by that time it was becoming realized that gliders were obsolete as a military platform, and the designer (Chase) added a modification that allowed the installation of 2 engines. This was done by Fairchild, and the XG-20 became the C-123.

And they had a decent life also. Used by the Air Force from 1949 until 1980, they were produced until 1970, but the small number (just over 300) meant there were few replacements available once the airframes wore out.

Fledermaus · Feb 19, 2020

Oozlefinch said:
One of the most interesting aircraft in the US military inventory.

The C-123 was originally designed as a large Assault Glider after WWII. Originally built as the XG-20, it was to be a replacement for the outdated gliders of WWII. But by that time it was becoming realized that gliders were obsolete as a military platform, and the designer (Chase) added a modification that allowed the installation of 2 engines. This was done by Fairchild, and the XG-20 became the C-123.

And they had a decent life also. Used by the Air Force from 1949 until 1980, they were produced until 1970, but the small number (just over 300) meant there were few replacements available once the airframes wore out.

A South Korean C-123 sprayed us as part of exercises in the Taegu area.

beerftw · Feb 24, 2020

braindrain said:
Where has my knowledge of the military or the infantry been lacking. Please be specific just don’t make things up.

And while you are right that my direct knowledge is of only the time I was at airborne however my entire career has been entirely around people who have been to airborne school and that is people who went rather recently and guys who went a decade or more before I went to the school. Not a single one has ever mentioned airborne being hard and many many have talked about what a joke it is. And the slow ass runs are a bit of a running joke.

I don’t at all think special forces is the only military. That is you just seeing what you want to see. I admit I do talk about SF more then any other part of the military but that is only because that has been the majority of my experience. And it’s hard to be an 18X when you have served in the 82nd as an 11B for two years. But I get you want to try and find an excuse to disregard what I say.

Doesn’t matter if you do a ruck with a ruck sack or an assault pack you still need something. And you are issued nothing at airborne and you are not required to bring anything. Proving your claims to be wrong.
And pretending that everyone I have served with is some speared network despite people in SF coming from all over the Army with the all of them having gone to airborne before SF. And that’s not even mentioning the fact even 18xs get mixed in with everyone else and get the exact same training as everyone else.

I could care less if you back away from your completely false claims. In fact I encourage you not to as I am interested to see just how long you will continue to make yourself look foolish.
And if you think I have been aggressive towards you at all then you need to grow some thicker skin.

And if all I was doing was seeking acknowledgement of my stance rather than any meaningful debate then I would simply say you are wrong and leave it at that. But instead I have posted links backing up what I claim. But you are right there is no real debate as you are simply completely wrong.

And furthermore this really points to your general knowledge of how the Army works. Official Army schools work off a set poi and strict guidelines. One class is not doing 12 mile rucks and failing people for not maintaining a 7 minute pace on runs while another class does 9 minute pace runs.

This is the problem when private’s try and act like they know all about the Army.

Put please continue and get as dirty as you want. You will only continue to embarrass yourself.

For one when you claimed in a long past thread 5 shots in close quarters and constant running, which shows me you were isolated to sf mentality and general infantry do not run nonstop and expend 5 shots per target, they use 2-3 per target and clear room to room as general procedure, where you tend to rant on about things not applicable to the general army.

For two years of being an 11b in 82nd it really does not show, infact you seem to resemble someone who either had little direct infantry experience or served so short and threw it out the window for sf knowledge.

As stated it is from what I have heard, you may be right people may have lied about it to my face, either way the way you speak gains you no ones respect, especially mine, and I have given respect to all walks of the military from grunts to sf to cooks and everything inbetween, just the mere tone of your argument screams you were the fat kid in highschool who got beat up and seek to make yourself look superior by any means.

If you wish to encourage me so be it, agressive, no more like arrogant and snobbish, if that is the way you wish to project yourself so be it.

On army classes they are not uniform, tradoc has flexibility in terms of pt and training, but lacks flexibility in other areas, like one battallion can run 3 miles for pt every moring the next can run 6 and the other 2, however they all must meet certain training criteria where they hold little flexibility.

Oh too bad go on with the this is how privates act mentality, you are just proving my point, but please do go on.

braindrain · Feb 25, 2020

beerftw said:
For one when you claimed in a long past thread 5 shots in close quarters and constant running, which shows me you were isolated to sf mentality and general infantry do not run nonstop and expend 5 shots per target, they use 2-3 per target and clear room to room as general procedure, where you tend to rant on about things not applicable to the general army.

For two years of being an 11b in 82nd it really does not show, infact you seem to resemble someone who either had little direct infantry experience or served so short and threw it out the window for sf knowledge.

As stated it is from what I have heard, you may be right people may have lied about it to my face, either way the way you speak gains you no ones respect, especially mine, and I have given respect to all walks of the military from grunts to sf to cooks and everything inbetween, just the mere tone of your argument screams you were the fat kid in highschool who got beat up and seek to make yourself look superior by any means.

If you wish to encourage me so be it, agressive, no more like arrogant and snobbish, if that is the way you wish to project yourself so be it.

On army classes they are not uniform, tradoc has flexibility in terms of pt and training, but lacks flexibility in other areas, like one battallion can run 3 miles for pt every moring the next can run 6 and the other 2, however they all must meet certain training criteria where they hold little flexibility.

Oh too bad go on with the this is how privates act mentality, you are just proving my point, but please do go on.

Let's see the post then. Because I have no interest in discussing something you probably took out on context. Because I don't believe I was talking about the way infantry does CQB when I made that post.

And you sound like some private who got out after a few years and acts like they know all about the military. Trust me you don't and you prove it over and over in this forum tell us more about the guy who had a hand written now in his file that kept him from getting promoted or the guy who was on profile but was demoted because he could not pass a PT test.

And sorry that you feel that calling out the BS in your posts is giving you no respect. But if you don't want to be called out then stop making crap up. And that you have to use insults because you have nothing else is just pathetic.

And your knowledge of TRADOC sounds about as shallow as the rest of your knowledge about how the military actually works.
Since they can fail you from Airborne school for calling out of runs TRADOC will not allow one BN to run 6 miles while the another runs two. Just like they are not going to allow people to be failed in one BN for not doing enough pull ups or falling a ruck March while the other BNs don't do any of that

And it's funny to hear you talk about respect and a lack of it. You want to know how you earn zero respect. Talk about things you are clueless on and then despite being shown to be wrong cling to your claims.

Don't want to be called a private then stop acting like one

apdst · Feb 25, 2020

braindrain said:
Let's see the post then. Because I have no interest in discussing something you probably took out on context. Because I don't believe I was talking about the way infantry does CQB when I made that post.

And you sound like some private who got out after a few years and acts like they know all about the military. Trust me you don't and you prove it over and over in this forum tell us more about the guy who had a hand written now in his file that kept him from getting promoted or the guy who was on profile but was demoted because he could not pass a PT test.

And sorry that you feel that calling out the BS in your posts is giving you no respect. But if you don't want to be called out then stop making crap up. And that you have to use insults because you have nothing else is just pathetic.

And your knowledge of TRADOC sounds about as shallow as the rest of your knowledge about how the military actually works.
Since they can fail you from Airborne school for calling out of runs TRADOC will not allow one BN to run 6 miles while the another runs two. Just like they are not going to allow people to be failed in one BN for not doing enough pull ups or falling a ruck March while the other BNs don't do any of that

And it's funny to hear you talk about respect and a lack of it. You want to know how you earn zero respect. Talk about things you are clueless on and then despite being shown to be wrong cling to your claims.

Don't want to be called a private then stop acting like one

Those aren't record events, anyway.

braindrain · Feb 25, 2020

apdst said:
Those aren't record events, anyway.

But if you fall out of formation runs you are supposed to be dropped from the class, now if they actually do that I don't know I dont remember any one being dropped but then the runs are so slow you would have to really suck, but that is beside the point. They will not drop people for falling out of a six mile run when others are only doing two. That is not how tradoc schools work.

And any one who has actually been to Airborne school knows it is a strictly regimented course with very set time line. Like right down to what time what BN is in the chow hall. They are all doing pretty much the exact same thing.

Rogue Valley · Feb 25, 2020

Lol. Tell him to bugger off apdst.

17 Sailors and Six Marines Died in Avoidable Accidents. Congress Asks: Are the Problems Fixed?

beerftw

proud ammosexual

braindrain

beerftw

proud ammosexual

braindrain

Rexedgar

Yo-Semite!

vegas giants

Jredbaron96

Gen 4:10

Rexedgar

Yo-Semite!

Glitch

Oozlefinch

Glitch

PirateMk1

Oozlefinch

Fledermaus

beerftw

proud ammosexual

braindrain

apdst

braindrain

Rogue Valley

Lead or get out of the way