• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Pentagon Concerned Russia Cultivating Sympathy Among US Troops

What you don’t seem to understand that just because the threat was less then it once was that still doesn’t change it from being our number one threat. Which when the USSR fell that new threat became Russia.

No, it did not.


To pretend otherwise is just ignorance.

To pretend it was is just foolish. Did Russia remain a potential threat? Absolutely. Was it our biggest concern? Nonsensical.
 
Russia has always been a bad actor. After the fall of the USSR, Russia had serious economic problems that held them in check for a time. Because they quit spending money on their military their conventional war threat was lessened. Because Russia has always been the main threat to Europe, the pacifist in the European nations used this as the excuse to curtail their military spending too.

Then along came Putin and an increase in oil prices. Putin had expansionist aspirations and a slightly better economy to pursue it. They have started acting out again. They have invaded their neighbors, they are causing trouble in the Middle East. They are spending money on their military again.

However, even with this increased spending Russia is not a conventional war power. They lack the technical expertise and the economy to be one. Europe knows this and knows Russia could not successfully invade them. What they are missing is that Putin is trying to rebuild the USSR. They are trying to get footing in Ukraine, Crimea and Georgia. This is where Russia needs to be stopped.

As for NATO. America has been carrying their water since WWII. Europe has cheaped out on military spending and pushed the money into social programs, which has pushed them into a closet because most do not have the money for both. We finally have a president who is saying the US is not going to be your military. If Europe wants military security they need to start paying their share.
 
The Budapest Memorandum of 1994 announced the advent of a US strategic ambiguity toward Russia. The Memorandum said US, UK, Russia would assure Ukraine's borders in return for it giving over the hot potato nuclear weapons and delivery systems the newly sovereign Ukraine was stuck with after the USSR collapsed of its own dead weight.

The Budapest Memorandum said in so many words Washington did not consider Russia to be the enemy it was during the Cold War. Russia was to be a partner with the USA and UK with Ukraine. Russia under Boris Yeltsin thought the Memo and the advent of a US strategic ambiguity was the best thing since vodka and ice.

In 2008 when Putin invaded Georgia nothing happened. USA and UK gave it a glance of a look and went about their business as usual. So when Putin returned to the presidency in 2012 with tsarist ambitions and the US tied down in Iraq and Afghanistan, he figured he had a clear path to his neighbors. When Putin saw the Orange color Revolution in Ukraine as a US action he took an opposite and unequal reaction. Putin sent in the troops knowing Nato had no obligation to Ukraine and that the Budapest Memorandum had spelled out the US strategic ambiguity toward post Soviet Russia.

Yes the US continued to maintain its Cold War weapons platforms and the US continued to develop new weapons platforms, but Putin figured correctly US strategic ambiguity would rule out any kind of a direct US military response to Russia in Ukraine. The US strategic ambiguity stated by the Budapest Memorandum in 1994 was in fact that post the Cold War the USA had no single major strategic enemy. Indeed, China was still developing and was engaged in talking and exchanges, neither Iraq nor Afghanistan was an existential threat to the USA, Iran was negotiating nuclear issues with the P5 + 1. Only NK was a problem but in 2014 not yet an existential threat.

All of it changed however as Putin pressed on with his Mother Russia campaign against Russia's neighbors while Putin's advisers in the Kremlin talked about Russian nuclear weapons. Plus Moscow started talking about numerous exotic weapons that were conventional but mostly nuclear. Indeed, in 2015 the new SecDef Ashton Carter stated the end of US strategic ambiguity that had begun with the Budapest Memorandum (which as a Memo and not a treaty had zero legal standing internationally, ie, it was ambiguous rather than obligatory and certainly not mandatory). SedDef Carter in a major address put Russia behind Door Number 1, China behind Door Number 2, Iran behind Door Number 3, and NK under a spotlight at the center of the room.

So the good news is that US strategic ambiguity got tanked. The bad news is that the US has major strategic competitors again, Russia being back in its long time position behind Door Number 1.
 
Actually,the Seawolf was cancelled as part of the broad Clinton era cuts, which largely gutted all new construction for almost a decade. And they were indeed built to be used against the Soviets. Specifically they were designed to stalk and sink Soviet Ballistic Missile submarines.

However, even before they were cancelled the Navy was already working on the design of an even newer submarine. The Virginia class, which due to advances in data processing technology and other refinements are being built now (17 built, 6 on order, total fleet projected to be 66 units), and they are running half the cost of the Seawolf class.

The first boat (USS Virginia) was laid down at the tail end of the Clinton administration, as he was working hard to rebuild US capabilities before leaving office. And the rest of the Block I boats (4 in total) were all ordered in 1998. And after those were tested and refined, Block II (6 boats) were immediately ordered. We are already building Block IV boats, and Block V boats are on order.

The virginia class replaced the seawolf, the seawolf was a good idea come too late. Clinton shelved it because there was no longer a soviet threat, and when it came to budget cuts no one could justify a super expensive sub to fight an enemy that no longer existed. I military design though such designs may be scrapped but their ideas live on like with the virginia class, just because billions were throw at defeating an enemy that failed to exist by the time they were built does not mean all r and d was a waste.
 
You don’t design all your major weapons systems to fight against an enemy that you don’t consider a major threat.

Exactly what doctrine changed that was no longer geared towards fighting Russia.

And of course the training was geared towards fighting the war we were actually in rather then one that so far has not happened. It would be horribly incompetent to do anything else. But do you know what the vast majority of training was geared towards right up until 9/11. I will give you a hint. It wasn’t fighting Iraq. And training at the BN level does not indicate the priority of the military as a whole in any way shape or form.

The US did scale back after the end of the Cold War. But that wasn’t at the choice of the military. You are blaming the military for things out of their control.

And what happens every time that Trump says anything negative about Europe and their unwillingness to due their part.

The seawolf was canned because it was extremely expensive and the military couldn’t afford it. The same reason why production on the F22 was cut short. The US military does not get to decide how much money they get and with some very expensive long term wars going on they didn’t have much choice And if the military had decided Russia was no longer a threat they would have been canceled long before 95.

The seawolf was an old design, and fyi the f-22 is an old concept, my father had old magazines talking about it in the 80's, because design started in the 1980's, the f-22 was such a long cycle that it started as a weapon against the soviets yet was not flying even in the most basic prototypes until after the soviet union had fell by some years, and was not in production until even further after that. Both your cited examples were concepts from the 1980's one being finished and canned in the 90's and the other being built in the 2000's and production later halted.

The us military did scale back after the cold war, and you are right it was not a choice of the military, as the military is not going to vote themselves out of jobs or funds. The reality was the russian federation at first was a shell of the former soviet union, they rebuilt as we see today, but in the 90's they not only had no funds to spare as russia absorbed the entire debt of the soviet union combined with economic collapse, and hence was viewed as not a threat.

Even if they were viewed as a threat the whole time, russia then had not modernized their army and relied on soviet tactics of a union that did not exist anymore, and without the soviet union their numbers were far smaller, so it made sense to shrink us power in europe to match numbers of the russian federations power rather than the soviet unions power which had vastly more troops and armor at it's disposal.

The seawolf was expensive, however the enemy it was intended to combat ceased to exist, the virginia class replaced it using much of the same tech.
 
I am old enough to experience both sides of this coin.

For my first 10 years, the emphasis was entirely against fighting the Warsaw Pact. Most of our doctrine was to have us go into places like Iceland, Greenland, or Norway to shore up those nations as the Army went into Europe. Lots of winter warfare training, in addition to fighting withdrawals to try and bleed the enemy as much as we could, trading space for time.

But yes,since 2001 almost all training has been in the Desert. We have yet to really resume any kind of "Cold War" type of posture, where all of our time is mostly spent in training and not in actual boots on the ground operations.

But no, most of our equipment is still intended for use in fighting against Russia. Almost all of our equipment is still the same stuff we used in the 1980's. Primarily Reagan era stuff and older, designed specifically for use in Europe. In fact, that was one of the issues in 1990 and 2001 when we first took it to Asia and had to use it in an environment that had it had not been used in before.

At most, all we need to do is paint it all again, to move it from Desert Tan back to Forest Green.

On your last point I would argu that is was mostly designed for desert warfare, our newest trucks like mraps and uparmored hmmvw's were designed around insurgency warfare in the middle east, actually much of our gear is designed for the middle east, you can argue the gear started with european combat, however changes in doctrine and upgrades in gear have not reflected state level warfare in the last decade and a half, but rather reflected insurgencies and desert combat.

This is where things got bad, when we rolled into iraq and afghanistan, we realized the cold war era concepts did not work against improvised insurgency warfare. When transitioning to combat such warfare it becomes apparent thatcombatting state level warfare becomes extremely difficult. Basically the military can not focus on every type of warfare there is, as warfare is a dynamic and changing environment whether state or improvised warfare.
 
The OP highlights the nexus of Putin-Trump & Rowers and too many Republicans, Conservatives and almost all Libertarian Rightists in the armed forces lower enlisted ranks to include their families, as various surveys cited in the thread show.

It is excellent indeed to see retired flag officers of the US armed forces speaking up to counter Trump's negative influence and persuasion over certain elements of the US military both at home and abroad, as noted in the OP.



Retired four-star Army general: Trump 'serious threat to US national security'

03/16/18

th



A retired four-star Army general said that he believes that President Trump is a “serious threat to US national security.”

Retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey tweeted Friday that he reached the conclusion about Trump because the president “is refusing to protect vital US interests from active Russian attacks.”

“It is apparent that he is for some unknown reason under the sway of [Russian President Vladimir] Putin,” he added.

McCaffrey has also worked as an adjunct professor [of strategy] at the U.S. Military Academy and led the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy for five years.

Trump has come under fire for his response to Russian interference in the U.S. election. The president has repeatedly hit the probe into Russia's election meddling as a "witch hunt."

Retired four-star Army general: Trump 'serious threat to US national security' | TheHill



McCaffrey is immensely respected by generals and admirals active duty and retired. He is in continuing contact with 'em. As a division commander in Desert Storm McCaffrey devised the famous "Left Hook" maneuver that destroyed dozens of Iraqi divisions in one vast sweep that brought comparisons to Caesar in Gaul. After his retirement McCaffrey taught strategy at USMA for six years.

During the campaign Trump bellowed he'd "fire the generals" yet he hasn't fired a general or an admiral. In the instance of Trump as Potus it would be provocative and Trump know this. Nor are any generals or admirals going anywhere.
 
The virginia class replaced the seawolf, the seawolf was a good idea come too late. Clinton shelved it because there was no longer a soviet threat, and when it came to budget cuts no one could justify a super expensive sub to fight an enemy that no longer existed. I military design though such designs may be scrapped but their ideas live on like with the virginia class, just because billions were throw at defeating an enemy that failed to exist by the time they were built does not mean all r and d was a waste.

I was explaining the evolution, not any kind of justification or denial. Just giving facts, without any politics.

And since when does a piece of equipment like a submarine only work against one enemy and not another? A vehicle works only in one place, and not another. Our tanks in WWII worked in deserts, jungles, and the forests of Europe. Shops made for use against Germany also worked perfectly well against Japan.

You keep concentrating on how things are different, yet never seem to mention what is so different that what works against one does not work against another.

Case in point, the A-10 was designed as a "Tank Buster", to be used for destroying tanks in Europe. Yet the same aircraft is also an outstanding CAS platform in the deserts in Asia. A very different enemy, a very different location.

So please remove the politics, and explain why equipment made for one conflict do not work in another. You throw out buzzwords, but have yet to actually explain why.
 
So please remove the politics, and explain why equipment made for one conflict do not work in another. You throw out buzzwords, but have yet to actually explain why.

I mean that isn't hard to do. A perfect example is the MRAP; extremely useful for a COIN environment against IEDs and near useless in a conventional conflict.
 
Russia has always been a bad actor.

Actually, this is not quite true.

To be a "bad actor", that means that they could never be trusted. And as we saw over decades, if we actually made a treaty with them they were very good in following that treaty. They may try to work around the edges of it (and we did the same thing), but they never actually outright violated them.

This is what much of the problem with the treaties with say Iran and North Korea differ. If we signed a treaty with the Soviets or Russians, say in reducing weapons or outlawing a class they were very honest in doing just that. If we and they both agreed to remove weapons from a location, they would do just that.

Sorry, but in this I actually have to disagree strongly. Now Russia in recent years has been much more likely to bend those rules I admit, but once again we have somewhat done the same thing. But the main parts of the treaties they still follow.
 
I was explaining the evolution, not any kind of justification or denial. Just giving facts, without any politics.

And since when does a piece of equipment like a submarine only work against one enemy and not another? A vehicle works only in one place, and not another. Our tanks in WWII worked in deserts, jungles, and the forests of Europe. Shops made for use against Germany also worked perfectly well against Japan.

You keep concentrating on how things are different, yet never seem to mention what is so different that what works against one does not work against another.

Case in point, the A-10 was designed as a "Tank Buster", to be used for destroying tanks in Europe. Yet the same aircraft is also an outstanding CAS platform in the deserts in Asia. A very different enemy, a very different location.

So please remove the politics, and explain why equipment made for one conflict do not work in another. You throw out buzzwords, but have yet to actually explain why.

jedbaron96 already said it better than I can, pointing out mraps were designed for a specific warfare.

The seawolf was designed for combat against soviet subs, it does not mean it can not be repurposed or the tech used in future subs, but rather it's own design was obsolete by production due to being designed against an enemy that no longer exists.

Many designs can be altered, for example the seawolf became the virginia class. You mention the a-10 but it is relevant today, and fyi tankbuster was not ever in it's intended design, it was designed from the ground up as cas not as a tankbuster, it just happened to fill that role nicely. The predecessor to the a-10 the a-1 was designed as a torpedo launcher and bomber to take out aircraft, it's own design too was obsolete as ww2 ended before it was ready, but due to it's high weight capacity was redesigned into a cas aircraft, the tech proved valid but it's original purpose not, so itwas turned into one of the most feared cas aircraft known.

The point of the argument was against braindrain arguing we have russia as a top priority then him pointing to a sub class that was shelved and the f-22 which is in use but started design when the soviet union existed, both of those ideas were from the soviet era cold war and not a good argument to claim america never stopped viewing russia as a top threat, as those designs started before the russian federation was even a country not after.
 
jedbaron96 already said it better than I can, pointing out mraps were designed for a specific warfare.

I stopped reading his posts a long time ago. Because of dishonesty in posting.

And what about the MRAP makes it incapable of operating in another environment? What is it about this vehicle that prevents it from working in say Germany or South Korea?

In fact, the 173rd Brigade in Germany has been using the MRAP for over a decade now.

And in case you were not aware, the MRAP is already on the way out. It was intended purely as a temporary vehicle, to be used until a better replacement could be designed. And that is the M-ATV. And has been purchased by a great many countries, including Uzbekistan, Croatia, and South Africa.

Once again, you throw out a claim that it is unsuitable, and provide absolutely no evidence stating why it is unsuitable.

The seawolf was designed for combat against soviet subs, it does not mean it can not be repurposed or the tech used in future subs, but rather it's own design was obsolete by production due to being designed against an enemy that no longer exists.

No, that is wrong. It was designed to combat enemy ballistic missile subs. And do you know who else has ballistic missile subs?

China.

Now exactly what about the Seawolf makes it great against Soviet subs, but completely worthless against Chinese subs. Is there something magical in that sub that makes it completely ignore it? Can it not shoot one because it is not Soviet?

Once again, you just make a claim, but in absolutely no way to you even attempt to validate your claim.
 
You mention the a-10 but it is relevant today, and fyi tankbuster was not ever in it's intended design, it was designed from the ground up as cas not as a tankbuster, it just happened to fill that role nicely. The predecessor to the a-10 the a-1 was designed as a torpedo launcher and bomber to take out aircraft, it's own design too was obsolete as ww2 ended before it was ready, but due to it's high weight capacity was redesigned into a cas aircraft, the tech proved valid but it's original purpose not, so itwas turned into one of the most feared cas aircraft known.

OK, got ya. OK, now a little history lesson.

When the Air Force put out a call for a replacement Attack aircraft (something they do not even want to do, but they are mandated to provide one by the Key West Agreement), they created the A-X project. And there were 2 designs submitted. That is the Northrup YA-9, and the Fairchild YA-10. Both aircraft were remarkably similar, and if you set both of them at 100 meters and block off the view of the nose most would likely be unable to tell them apart.

But the difference between the 2 was the GAU-8 cannon. In fact, a weapon that is remarkably lousy in use for a CAS aircraft. The Army actually preferred the YA-9 with the smaller 20mm Vulcan cannon, as it had almost double the ammo capacity of the 30mm GAU-8. But the Air Force had the final say, so the YA-10 won and the YA-9 lost.

It assumed the role of "Tankbuster" because in the then battle plans for a NATO-Warsaw Pact conflict, it was realized that the main threat would be Soviet tanks and not infantry. And our own forces would be conducting a fighting withdrawal and not actually conducting the kind of defensive actions where CAS would be of any great use (beyond what the Army's own rotary wing aircraft could provide). You call in CAS when you really need to hold a location. Otherwise you simply slip away. That is what the entire battle plan for WWIII in Europe was. No big fights, little attacks then running away.

Remember, the A-10 is by it's designation an "Attack" aircraft. Not an F for Fighter, or B for Bomber. And attack means going after ground targets. If it was only intended for CAS, then they would have selected the YA-9, not the YA-10. The 9 was a much better CAS aircraft, but the 10 was much better at taking out other ground targets (like tanks,something the 9 really could not do well).

Under that order of battle, the A-10 was tasked with 3 main roles. Taking out tanks, taking out logistics trains, and taking out command and control centers. Notice, those are all "Attack" roles, as the designation of the aircraft mandates. But they re not really CAS roles. It would however slip back into it's CAS role when NATO went back on the offensive once the Warsaw logistics lines had been stretched to their limit, and the number of tanks thinned.

But no, it was not really a CAS aircraft. Notice how early on I stated that the Air Force was mandated to provide an Attack aircraft. Not a CAS aircraft. CAS is a role in an Attack aircraft, but not their only role. Their actual role is to focus almost exclusively upon ground targets and not air targets But it was always intended in the role of taking out ground targets, more specifically tanks and not troops in the open. And in the traditional CAS role, it does not rely upon it's canon so much. Instead it primarily uses it's rocket launchers.

The only branch that really has it's own CAS aircraft is the Marines. The AV-8B is really the only fixed wing CAS aircraft the US really fields. It's air defense capabilities are very limited, and it's ground attack is also limited. But because it operates much like a rotary wing aircraft in many ways it is an excellent CAS platform.

But those are being retired in a few years, and replaced by another similar aircraft, the F-35B.
 
I stopped reading his posts a long time ago. Because of dishonesty in posting.

And what about the MRAP makes it incapable of operating in another environment? What is it about this vehicle that prevents it from working in say Germany or South Korea?

Because in those environments the main problem isn't going to be IEDs, it's going to by anti-tank mines (which the MRAP does not protect against) or actual enemy armor like tanks or IFVs; which will pierce the MRAP's thin side armor with ease, or ATGMs which will crack it open like a fiery can of sardines.

Sure, you can *use* them; they're just not good for a conventional environment; they don't protect against likely threats since they weren't designed for them, they have a high center of gravity and tall profile which makes them easy to spot. They're an APC that is overly vulnerable to conventional threats not to mention more expensive than a normal battle taxi.

Also, the iron of you complaining about dishonest posting when you refuse to back down on any claim you make regardless of how often it has been shown to be false.
 
It's also worth noting that in repeated testings the A-10 was barely able to achieve a 50% hit rate on stationary armor with it's GAU. It was designed to whittle down columns of Soviet armor but would have spent most of it getting blown out of the sky since it was designed to survive Soviet 23mm AA shells, but by the time it was introduced the Soviets had equipped their tactical air defense units with SAMs, which the A-10 doesn't protect against.
 
The OP highlights the nexus of Putin-Trump & Rowers and too many Republicans, Conservatives and almost all Libertarian Rightists in the armed forces lower enlisted ranks to include their families, as various surveys cited in the thread show.

It is excellent indeed to see retired flag officers of the US armed forces speaking up to counter Trump's negative influence and persuasion over certain elements of the US military both at home and abroad, as noted in the OP.



Retired four-star Army general: Trump 'serious threat to US national security'

03/16/18

th



A retired four-star Army general said that he believes that President Trump is a “serious threat to US national security.”

Retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey tweeted Friday that he reached the conclusion about Trump because the president “is refusing to protect vital US interests from active Russian attacks.”

“It is apparent that he is for some unknown reason under the sway of [Russian President Vladimir] Putin,” he added.

McCaffrey has also worked as an adjunct professor [of strategy] at the U.S. Military Academy and led the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy for five years.

Trump has come under fire for his response to Russian interference in the U.S. election. The president has repeatedly hit the probe into Russia's election meddling as a "witch hunt."

Retired four-star Army general: Trump 'serious threat to US national security' | TheHill



McCaffrey is immensely respected by generals and admirals active duty and retired. He is in continuing contact with 'em. As a division commander in Desert Storm McCaffrey devised the famous "Left Hook" maneuver that destroyed dozens of Iraqi divisions in one vast sweep that brought comparisons to Caesar in Gaul. After his retirement McCaffrey taught strategy at USMA for six years.

During the campaign Trump bellowed he'd "fire the generals" yet he hasn't fired a general or an admiral. In the instance of Trump as Potus it would be provocative and Trump know this. Nor are any generals or admirals going anywhere.

Have you anything to say about your rather obvious dishonesty?
 
I stopped reading his posts a long time ago. Because of dishonesty in posting.

And what about the MRAP makes it incapable of operating in another environment? What is it about this vehicle that prevents it from working in say Germany or South Korea?

In fact, the 173rd Brigade in Germany has been using the MRAP for over a decade now.

And in case you were not aware, the MRAP is already on the way out. It was intended purely as a temporary vehicle, to be used until a better replacement could be designed. And that is the M-ATV. And has been purchased by a great many countries, including Uzbekistan, Croatia, and South Africa.

Once again, you throw out a claim that it is unsuitable, and provide absolutely no evidence stating why it is unsuitable.



No, that is wrong. It was designed to combat enemy ballistic missile subs. And do you know who else has ballistic missile subs?

China.

Now exactly what about the Seawolf makes it great against Soviet subs, but completely worthless against Chinese subs. Is there something magical in that sub that makes it completely ignore it? Can it not shoot one because it is not Soviet?

Once again, you just make a claim, but in absolutely no way to you even attempt to validate your claim.

The mrap becomes incapable in state warfare as it was designed to fight improvised insurgency warfare which it much different that state level warfare. This is not to say it is useless however it was designed for a specific type of warfare and without major changes would stay relegated to that specific type of warfare.

The seawolf was specifically designed to combat the typhoon and akula class soviet missile subs,

The Seawolf design was intended to combat the threat of advanced Soviet ballistic missile submarines such as the Typhoon class, and attack submarines such as the Akula class in a deep-ocean environment. Seawolf-class hulls are constructed from HY-100 steel, which is stronger than the HY-80 steel employed in previous classes, in order to withstand water pressure at greater depths.[6][7]

Seawolf-class submarine - Wikipedia
 
OK, got ya. OK, now a little history lesson.

When the Air Force put out a call for a replacement Attack aircraft (something they do not even want to do, but they are mandated to provide one by the Key West Agreement), they created the A-X project. And there were 2 designs submitted. That is the Northrup YA-9, and the Fairchild YA-10. Both aircraft were remarkably similar, and if you set both of them at 100 meters and block off the view of the nose most would likely be unable to tell them apart.

But the difference between the 2 was the GAU-8 cannon. In fact, a weapon that is remarkably lousy in use for a CAS aircraft. The Army actually preferred the YA-9 with the smaller 20mm Vulcan cannon, as it had almost double the ammo capacity of the 30mm GAU-8. But the Air Force had the final say, so the YA-10 won and the YA-9 lost.



But no, it was not really a CAS aircraft. Notice how early on I stated that the Air Force was mandated to provide an Attack aircraft. Not a CAS aircraft. CAS is a role in an Attack aircraft, but not their only role. Their actual role is to focus almost exclusively upon ground targets and not air targets But it was always intended in the role of taking out ground targets, more specifically tanks and not troops in the open. And in the traditional CAS role, it does not rely upon it's canon so much. Instead it primarily uses it's rocket launchers.

The only branch that really has it's own CAS aircraft is the Marines. The AV-8B is really the only fixed wing CAS aircraft the US really fields. It's air defense capabilities are very limited, and it's ground attack is also limited. But because it operates much like a rotary wing aircraft in many ways it is an excellent CAS platform.

But those are being retired in a few years, and replaced by another similar aircraft, the F-35B.

The ya-9 and ya-10 looked completely different, the fact the ya-9 has engines under the wing and a completely different tail end makes it obvious enough.

You should read the airforces demands as well as the armies and the designer of the program, they specifically list cas as the primary goal and it is the only aircraft designed from the ground up with cas as a priority.


On 8 September 1966, General John P. McConnell, Chief of Staff of the USAF, ordered that a specialized CAS aircraft be designed, developed, and obtained. On 22 December, a Requirements Action Directive was issued for the A-X CAS airplane,[14] and the Attack Experimental (A-X) program office was formed.[15] On 6 March 1967, the Air Force released a request for information to 21 defense contractors for the A-X. The objective was to create a design study for a low-cost attack aircraft.[11] In 1969, the Secretary of the Air Force asked Pierre Sprey to write the detailed specifications for the proposed A-X project; Sprey's initial involvement was kept secret due to his earlier controversial involvement in the F-X project.[11] Sprey's discussions with Skyraider pilots operating in Vietnam and analysis of aircraft used in the role indicated the ideal aircraft should have long loiter time, low-speed maneuverability, massive cannon firepower, and extreme survivability;[11] possessing the best elements of the Ilyushin Il-2, Henschel Hs 129, and Skyraider. The specifications also demanded that each aircraft cost less than $3 million (equivalent to $20.9 million today).[11] Sprey required that the biography of World War II Luftwaffe attack pilot Hans-Ulrich Rudel be read by people on the A-X program.[16]

In May 1970, the USAF issued a modified, more detailed request for proposals for the aircraft. The threat of Soviet armored forces and all-weather attack operations had become more serious. The requirements now included that the aircraft would be designed specifically for the 30 mm rotary cannon. The RFP also specified a maximum speed of 460 mph (400 kn; 740 km/h), takeoff distance of 4,000 feet (1,200 m), external load of 16,000 pounds (7,300 kg), 285-mile (460 km) mission radius, and a unit cost of US$1.4 million ($9.2 million today).[17] The A-X would be the first USAF aircraft designed exclusively for close air support.[18] During this time, a separate RFP was released for A-X's 30 mm cannon with requirements for a high rate of fire (4,000 round per minute) and a high muzzle velocity.[19] Six companies submitted aircraft proposals, with Northrop and Fairchild Republic selected to build prototypes: the YA-9A and YA-10A, respectively. General Electric and Philco-Ford were selected to build and test GAU-8 cannon prototypes.[20]


Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II - Wikipedia
 
The mrap becomes incapable in state warfare as it was designed to fight improvised insurgency warfare which it much different that state level warfare. This is not to say it is useless however it was designed for a specific type of warfare and without major changes would stay relegated to that specific type of warfare.

The seawolf was specifically designed to combat the typhoon and akula class soviet missile subs,

The Seawolf design was intended to combat the threat of advanced Soviet ballistic missile submarines such as the Typhoon class, and attack submarines such as the Akula class in a deep-ocean environment. Seawolf-class hulls are constructed from HY-100 steel, which is stronger than the HY-80 steel employed in previous classes, in order to withstand water pressure at greater depths.[6][7]

Seawolf-class submarine - Wikipedia

And what is it about the M-113, M-2, and HMMWV that lets it operate in Europe, yet the MRAP can not? And why were they able to operate in the Middle East?

But I guess for some reason the MRAP can not do the same job of transporting troops and equipment in Europe or anywhere else in the world... just because?

And the same with the Seawolf I guess. Somehow it just magically turns itself off, and can not track or engage Chinese submarines. For some reason these submarines are absolutely incapable of tracking and attacking any submarines that China uses. Because they are not Russian?

You should know by now that intended is often thrown away after the first of a class of anything is first used. Nobody when the F-14 was introduced expected it to be turned into a fighter-bomber. Nobody when the C-130 was introduced expected them to be turned into attack aircraft, let alone used to launch ICBMs. And certainly nobody with Raytheon when they were building the first PATRIOT system (or even the last of the original systems) would have expected it to become our main ABM system.

So talking about "intended" as opposed to "capable of doing" is a fools errand. Just because a system was not intended for a mission is in no way the same as saying it is incapable of accomplishing other missions.

Including using submarines to resupply forward bases with supplies and personnel.
 
Actually, this is not quite true.

To be a "bad actor", that means that they could never be trusted. And as we saw over decades, if we actually made a treaty with them they were very good in following that treaty. They may try to work around the edges of it (and we did the same thing), but they never actually outright violated them.

This is what much of the problem with the treaties with say Iran and North Korea differ. If we signed a treaty with the Soviets or Russians, say in reducing weapons or outlawing a class they were very honest in doing just that. If we and they both agreed to remove weapons from a location, they would do just that.

Sorry, but in this I actually have to disagree strongly. Now Russia in recent years has been much more likely to bend those rules I admit, but once again we have somewhat done the same thing. But the main parts of the treaties they still follow.

No bad acting has nothing to do with trustworthy. Bad acting is killing most of the men you take prisoner. Bad acting is invading countries and occupying them to try and build an empire. Bad acting is allowing your soldiers to roam the streets of occupied cities and rape any woman they encounter. Bad acting is building a wall and shooting anyone who tries to escape your occupation. Bad acting is indiscriminate bombing of villages, killing women and children. Bad acting is gassing villages. Bad acting is killing millions of your own people who don't agree with your philosophies.

By the way, "working around the edges" of a treaty is not being trustworthy.
 
And what is it about the M-113, M-2, and HMMWV that lets it operate in Europe, yet the MRAP can not? And why were they able to operate in the Middle East?

But I guess for some reason the MRAP can not do the same job of transporting troops and equipment in Europe or anywhere else in the world... just because?

And the same with the Seawolf I guess. Somehow it just magically turns itself off, and can not track or engage Chinese submarines. For some reason these submarines are absolutely incapable of tracking and attacking any submarines that China uses. Because they are not Russian?

You should know by now that intended is often thrown away after the first of a class of anything is first used. Nobody when the F-14 was introduced expected it to be turned into a fighter-bomber. Nobody when the C-130 was introduced expected them to be turned into attack aircraft, let alone used to launch ICBMs. And certainly nobody with Raytheon when they were building the first PATRIOT system (or even the last of the original systems) would have expected it to become our main ABM system.

So talking about "intended" as opposed to "capable of doing" is a fools errand. Just because a system was not intended for a mission is in no way the same as saying it is incapable of accomplishing other missions.

Including using submarines to resupply forward bases with supplies and personnel.

The mrap can operate in europe, it is just the style of conflict that europe would face would likely be state level warfare, while the mrap was designed for improvised warfare. This is the same reason the mrap was made , because our traditional lineup was designed for state level warfare and in iraq we lost many vehicles and had to engineer a new vehicle towards improvised war as well as update existing platforms like the hmmvw to stand a chance.

For the seawolf all 3 of them can be used elsewhere, but they are a sub without a purpose at this point, well 2 of them are the third was converted to a different purpose. it was ground up built to counter a specific class of soviet subs, and with the cold war ending no one could justify the most expensive sub to fight an enemy that did not exist anymore ie the soviet union and the remants of the soviets like russia ukraine belarus georgia etc were too poor to contemplate direct war after their collapse.

If you need to know why the typhoon class needed to have a special sub to fight it, the typhoon was a massive missile sub, largest sub ever built, 7 were built and only 1 active and 2 reserve survive as post soviet collapse they could not afford upkeep and some degraded to poor conditions. But the typhoon could not only carry a metric crapton of missiles, it also had features like a gym, a movie theater, it was actually built for the purpose of staying hidden months at a time without the crew being too cramped or fatigued. The seawolf was designed as a counter, it could go deep, quiet and fast.


All equipment can be modified and repurposed if the capabilities exist, one of the most feared cas aircraft the a-1 skyraider was a repurposed ww2 torpedo bomber that never got to see action in ww2. However repurposing something means it holds the capabilities in the first place to accept those changes, as well as changing the equipment for a different task or different style warfare.
 
Back
Top Bottom