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Richard Spencer: I was fired as Navy secretary.

dave8383 said:
Again, not my point. The enemy continues to come from the same pool in a conventional war between states. That was the case in WWI, WWII, and Korea. That is not the case today in the war we're talking about.
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That's one point of view. Sure, there are always going to be similarities and dissimilarities anytime we compare human events.
 
Rising Sun said:
A CiC can be unfit for office. What is so hard to understand about this point?
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Until such time that the CIC's authority is removed, one's personal opinion of his fitness for office is irrelevant.
 
ocean515 said:
A Secretary of the Navy can be unfit for office. What is so hard to understand about this point?
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Yes, he can. However, when comparing an honorable man and Marine Corps veteran against a lying draft-dodging coward and serial sexual predator, I'll stick with the honorable man and Marine Corps veteran. What is so hard to understand about this point?

What is so hard to understand that Trump, the lying draft-dodging coward, has driven out Generals Kelly and Mattis and now another honorable veteran?
 
apdst said:
Under the circumstances, it was ok to do.
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Spoken like an immoral armchair warrior and solid veteran of a few thousand hours of "Call of Duty" on X-Box. Sorry, but that's not okay in the real world, apdst.
 
Rising Sun said:
Yes, he can. However, when comparing an honorable man and Marine Corps veteran against a lying draft-dodging coward and serial sexual predator, I'll stick with the honorable man and Marine Corps veteran. What is so hard to understand about this point?

What is so hard to understand that Trump, the lying draft-dodging coward, has driven out Generals Kelly and Mattis and now another honorable veteran?
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LOL

:tink:
 
Rising Sun said:
Yes, he can. However, when comparing an honorable man and Marine Corps veteran against a lying draft-dodging coward and serial sexual predator, I'll stick with the honorable man and Marine Corps veteran. What is so hard to understand about this point?

What is so hard to understand that Trump, the lying draft-dodging coward, has driven out Generals Kelly and Mattis and now another honorable veteran?
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Spencer disgraced the uniform with his insubordination. As a veteran, he knows that a subordinant respects the office, even if he doesn't respect the man.
 
Rising Sun said:
That's one point of view. Sure, there are always going to be similarities and dissimilarities anytime we compare human events.
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That's the main reason you can't feed them information, like trophy pictures, that they can use for propaganda. If you were North Korean, or Chinese, you were going to fight against the South no matter what kind of propaganda was being pushed by either side. Today, when these non-state actors are constantly recruiting from an undefined pool, propaganda is extremely important.
 
Rising Sun said:
Spoken like an immoral armchair warrior and solid veteran of a few thousand hours of "Call of Duty" on X-Box. Sorry, but that's not okay in the real world, apdst.
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What unit were you in?

War isn't the real world.
 
Rising Sun said:
Yes, he can. However, when comparing an honorable man and Marine Corps veteran against a lying draft-dodging coward and serial sexual predator, I'll stick with the honorable man and Marine Corps veteran. What is so hard to understand about this point?

What is so hard to understand that Trump, the lying draft-dodging coward, has driven out Generals Kelly and Mattis and now another honorable veteran?
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He will get 99% of the military vote. The troops know nonsense when they see it and to crucify a guy for what he did tells the soldiers that their commanders care for the enemy more than them. A reprimand would have been sufficient.
 
apdst said:
Is killing immoral?
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Immoral/moral is a personal position. Ethics is society-wide, aggregate morality. Your question might be better asked, "Is killing unethical?". The answer is yes but sometimes ethics must take a back-seat to pragmatism. However too often ethics takes a back-seat to greed, ambition, national destiny, hate fraud. Killing for these reasons is not ethical.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
apdst said:
Spencer disgraced the uniform with his insubordination. As a veteran, he knows that a subordinant respects the office, even if he doesn't respect the man.
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He resigned. Now he can say whatever he wants as a free American citizen. People who have taken the oath understand this point.
 
apdst said:
Spencer disgraced the uniform with his insubordination. As a veteran, he knows that a subordinant respects the office, even if he doesn't respect the man.
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Maybe he should have been thrown in the same brig he didn't want to release the accused of.

Isn't disobeying an order a higher crime than having a photo taken with a dead man?
 
dave8383 said:
That's the main reason you can't feed them information, like trophy pictures, that they can use for propaganda. If you were North Korean, or Chinese, you were going to fight against the South no matter what kind of propaganda was being pushed by either side. Today, when these non-state actors are constantly recruiting from an undefined pool, propaganda is extremely important.
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Yes, Jihadists are "non-state" actors, but, with the exception of ISIS (which became a state), they can't do much without state-actor support. Is there any doubt the Iran supplies terrorists? Didn't Taliban Afghanistan support al-Qaeda?

I fail to see the fervor you have to say "this is different". War atrocities always piss off the opposite side. If the Iranians, Jihadists, state or non-state actors posed with dead Americans, wouldn't we rightfully seek retribution? Didn't 9/11 see a surge in American military volunteers?
 
Lord of Planar said:
Maybe he should have been thrown in the same brig he didn't want to release the accused of.

Isn't disobeying an order a higher crime than having a photo taken with a dead man?
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No doubt that's exactly what Trump would want to do. The draft-dodging coward is setting himself for a direct head-on collision with the entire United States military. Let's see if the Republican party itself can find its spine when that happens.
 
Evilroddy said:
Immoral/moral is a personal position. Ethics is society-wide, aggregate morality. Your question might be better asked, "Is killing unethical?". The answer is yes but sometimes ethics must take a back-seat to pragmatism. However too often ethics takes a back-seat to greed, ambition, national destiny, hate fraud. Killing for these reasons is not ethical.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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I think it helps to understand the difference between killing and murder.
 
Rising Sun said:
He resigned. Now he can say whatever he wants as a free American citizen. People who have taken the oath understand this point.
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Have you guys followed what Mark Esper is on record saying about this? Esper fired him for telling him one thing, telling the media another, and wanting a quid-pro-quo. Also, going around Esper's back to make a deal with the president.

Yes, he is now free to speak like he does, but this also speaks of his lack respect and honor for the chain of command.

And... he gave his resignation after he asked to!
 
Lord of Planar said:
Maybe he should have been thrown in the same brig he didn't want to release the accused of.

Isn't disobeying an order a higher crime than having a photo taken with a dead man?
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It's definitely a violation of the UCMJ and worth a court martial.
 
Rising Sun said:
He resigned. Now he can say whatever he wants as a free American citizen. People who have taken the oath understand this point.
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As a free citizen of the republic, I can say he's a disgrace to the uniform.

What branch of service did you serve in?
 
Paradoxical said:
He will get 99% of the military vote. The troops know nonsense when they see it and to crucify a guy for what he did tells the soldiers that their commanders care for the enemy more than them. A reprimand would have been sufficient.
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Trump had a majority share of support from the junior ranks of the US military....up until he canned General Mattis. Marines love General Mattis more than a lying, draft-dodging coward. I have no doubt General Mattis' memoir will be very illuminating on the chaos and ineptness of the Trump administration.

https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2018/12/mattis-letter2.pdf



https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ef8da0-04ac-11e9-b6a9-0aa5c2fcc9e4_story.html
From the day Jim Mattis took over the Pentagon, he was seen by Washington and the world as a safeguard against a president addicted to chaos and animated by a different moral code.

At home, he was the seasoned battlefield commander who was willing to check Trump’s often-impulsive instincts when it came to deploying force. As long as Mattis was at the helm of the Pentagon, Republicans and Democrats trusted there was someone who would fight to ensure military actions weren’t taken on a whim.

Overseas, Mattis was perhaps the only Trump administration official who had the unconditional trust of America’s closest allies.

“Having Mattis there gave all of us a great deal more comfort than we have now,” said Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.). “He was the steadiest hand in the Cabinet, and we’ve all slept better and felt better that he was there.”
 
Evilroddy said:
Immoral/moral is a personal position. Ethics is society-wide, aggregate morality. Your question might be better asked, "Is killing unethical?". The answer is yes but sometimes ethics must take a back-seat to pragmatism. However too often ethics takes a back-seat to greed, ambition, national destiny, hate fraud. Killing for these reasons is not ethical.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Taking a photo with a dead enemy is just as subjectively moral/immoral as killing another human being.
 
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