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Trump says Navy won’t remove Gallagher’s SEAL designation

 
RaleBulgarian said:
^^ This explains your general ignorance of Navy regulations/policies, anti-military leadership bias, and poor attitude towards good order and discipline.

As for myself; 23 years active duty Navy, no UCMJ violations (never had so much as a deck plate level counseling report). Also, having served a three year assignment working directly for the Command JAG Officer as Chief Master-at-Arms, I believe I’m a bit more knowledgeable of the UCMJ than someone who’s only experience with the military legal system was standing at attention on the wrong side of the C.O.’s podium.
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Navy policies mirror other branches in terms of the chain of command, The only argument any navy officer could make that would not land their ass in greenland or being completely booted out or stuck in a desk position would be to argue trump's order is unlawful.

However there is not much evidence to back that trumps order was unlawful, and even the navy is at odds with itself with who to back.

If you were navy as you claimed you would have a full understanding of chain of command as well as lawful and unlawful orders, and at the end of the day NO MATTER WHAT BRANCH OF THE MILITARY THE POTUS IS COMMANDER AND CHIEF OF THE ENTIRE ARMED FORCES NO MATTER WHO IS POTUS
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Again, joko and his Trump loving friends did not hesitate to claim that Obama had nothing to do with bin Laden's capture.
You can avoid the subject if you want, doesn't change the fact that joko is a flaming hypocrite and a partisan hack.
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Joko is well I will not say but you understand, my argument was that so long as lawful the potus has full power to give orders as well as reshuffle or end carreers of anyone in the military, the potus is commander in chief and is the highest ranking in the military chain of command, and generals were ****canned for far less under previous presidents than what some navy officers are trying to do.
 
mrjurrs said:
He pardoned war criminals, and the military doesn't like it. Fox News does, but not the military.
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To be fair, Trump did suggest that the military commit war crimes. Makes sense for him to pardon those that did.
 
It's not a lawful order. The President does not have the authority to dictate the outcome of internal proceedings. The proper reply is, "Sorry, sir, I question the lawfulness of that order and thus cannot comply. Send it over my head."

If a Colonel tries to dictate proceedings outcomes, that's the reply. And a General. And the President. There is no "I do what I want" for anyone. There's law. We're not a regime.
 
beerftw said:
Navy policies mirror other branches in terms of the chain of command, The only argument any navy officer could make that would not land their ass in greenland or being completely booted out or stuck in a desk position would be to argue trump's order is unlawful.

However there is not much evidence to back that trumps order was unlawful, and even the navy is at odds with itself with who to back.

If you were navy as you claimed you would have a full understanding of chain of command as well as lawful and unlawful orders, and at the end of the day NO MATTER WHAT BRANCH OF THE MILITARY THE POTUS IS COMMANDER AND CHIEF OF THE ENTIRE ARMED FORCES NO MATTER WHO IS POTUS
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I’m not disputing Trump’s legitimate right to order the SEAL community not to eject Gallagher.

I, along with just about everyone else who understands the need for good order and discipline, respect for the chain of command, and consistent enforcement of policies/procedures, am arguing that Trump’s Tweet ordering the Navy/SEAL community to allow Gallagher to continue wearing the trident is a gross abuse of authority and is completely counter to the proper functioning between a CINC and his military leadership.

Other service members have been appropriately punished for doing exactly the same thing that Gallagher did. Shouldn’t they also expect Trump to override their sentences? What about those who commit the same, or similar, violations of the UCMJ in the future? Why shouldn’t they also reasonably expect the same protection?

Bottom line, Trump’s interference is a perfect example of “just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should”.
 
RaleBulgarian said:
I’m not disputing Trump’s legitimate right to order the SEAL community not to eject Gallagher.

I, along with just about everyone else who understands the need for good order and discipline, respect for the chain of command, and consistent enforcement of policies/procedures, am arguing that Trump’s Tweet ordering the Navy/SEAL community to allow Gallagher to continue wearing the trident is a gross abuse of authority and is completely counter to the proper functioning between a CINC and his military leadership.

Other service members have been appropriately punished for doing exactly the same thing that Gallagher did. Shouldn’t they also expect Trump to override their sentences? What about those who commit the same, or similar, violations of the UCMJ in the future? Why shouldn’t they also reasonably expect the same protection?

Bottom line, Trump’s interference is a perfect example of “just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should”.
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My big gripe goes with the navy doing this after trump acted despite having plenty of time, coupled with no one else in the photo with the dead body was charged, just him after he was aquitted of other charges, trump would be right to say the whole process was screwed up as it looked less like proper ucmj and more like a vendetta even before trump got involved, as had it been justice the many others in the same photo would have been punished, and they were let free. Were it real justice all in the photo would have been prosecuted not just one singled out guy.

Also notice I bolded out no matter who is potus because this is not unique to trump, obama bush jr clinton etc etc all ran into similar issues at some point, and unless the order can be shown as unlawful the officers who fight against the potus always end up on the losing end, usually not kicked out of the military but rather given xyz crap dead end job in greenland or alaska or forced into retirement.
 
beerftw said:
My big gripe goes with the navy doing this after trump acted despite having plenty of time, coupled with no one else in the photo with the dead body was charged, just him after he was aquitted of other charges, trump would be right to say the whole process was screwed up as it looked less like proper ucmj and more like a vendetta even before trump got involved, as had it been justice the many others in the same photo would have been punished, and they were let free. Were it real justice all in the photo would have been prosecuted not just one singled out guy.

Also notice I bolded out no matter who is potus because this is not unique to trump, obama bush jr clinton etc etc all ran into similar issues at some point, and unless the order can be shown as unlawful the officers who fight against the potus always end up on the losing end, usually not kicked out of the military but rather given xyz crap dead end job in greenland or alaska or forced into retirement.
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Some points of clarification -
1. Posing with the body was one of the original charges Gallagher faced, not added later as you assert.

One of the pics taken was of Gallagher kneeling next to the body while holding his knife. That doesn’t relieve the others of their own responsibility (personally, I believe all involved should have been charged), but it does however, reflect very badly on Gallagher’s leadership.
SEAL sentenced for posing with dead detainee

2. Although RADM Green directed that a board be convened to consider revoking Gallagher’s trident pin after Trump’s order to reinstate him, three other officers were also being considered for the same action, so it’s not possible for us to know if the review board was already being considered before Trump’s tweet.

3. Trump’s actions in this regard are unique. If you can cite (with accompanying link) another instance of another POTUS doing the same or similar things, please post.
 
JacksinPA said:
Trump says Navy won’t remove Gallagher’s SEAL designation

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump insisted Thursday that the Navy “will NOT be taking away Warfighter and Navy Seal Eddie Gallagher’s Trident Pin,” inserting himself into an ongoing legal review of the sailor’s ability to hold onto the pin that designates him a SEAL.

The Navy on Wednesday notified Chief Petty Officer Edward Gallagher that he will face a review early next month to determine if he should remain on the elite force.
=======================================================
Trumpian politics eclipses murder. Way to go to undermine the morale of our armed forces.
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None of you know WTF you're talking about. The prosecutors and the leadership are to blame for this bull****. They weren't evenly apply the law the same across the board. Trump was exactly right, and besides that he's Commander-in-Chief. He makes the decision if he sees an injustice, which he did.
 
RaleBulgarian said:
Some points of clarification -
1. Posing with the body was one of the original charges Gallagher faced, not added later as you assert.

One of the pics taken was of Gallagher kneeling next to the body while holding his knife. That doesn’t relieve the others of their own responsibility (personally, I believe all involved should have been charged), but it does however, reflect very badly on Gallagher’s leadership.
SEAL sentenced for posing with dead detainee

2. Although RADM Green directed that a board be convened to consider revoking Gallagher’s trident pin after Trump’s order to reinstate him, three other officers were also being considered for the same action, so it’s not possible for us to know if the review board was already being considered before Trump’s tweet.

3. Trump’s actions in this regard are unique. If you can cite (with accompanying link) another instance of another POTUS doing the same or similar things, please post.
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Yeah, but ONLY Gallagher was going to have his Trident taken; bull****!
 
RaleBulgarian said:
I’m not disputing Trump’s legitimate right to order the SEAL community not to eject Gallagher.

I, along with just about everyone else who understands the need for good order and discipline, respect for the chain of command, and consistent enforcement of policies/procedures, am arguing that Trump’s Tweet ordering the Navy/SEAL community to allow Gallagher to continue wearing the trident is a gross abuse of authority and is completely counter to the proper functioning between a CINC and his military leadership.

Other service members have been appropriately punished for doing exactly the same thing that Gallagher did. Shouldn’t they also expect Trump to override their sentences? What about those who commit the same, or similar, violations of the UCMJ in the future? Why shouldn’t they also reasonably expect the same protection?

Bottom line, Trump’s interference is a perfect example of “just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should”.
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Sec of the Navy was a dumbass who tried to trick Trump with a two pronged approach. He got caught and booted out by the Sec Def.
 
ElChupacabra said:
He certainly is, but having the power to do something doesn't mean you should do it. In this case the Navy was taking care of its own business and Trump intervened. From an organizational perspective, it undermines the authority of the military command for decisions that fall under their purview. If you think of this in practical terms, it's as if the CEO of the company steps in to intercede in your personnel management.
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Good order means following the chain of command, which the Sec Navy wasn't doing. So he lost his job.
 
American said:
Good order means following the chain of command, which the Sec Navy wasn't doing. So he lost his job.
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Again, the question is whether this was a pardon that made sense. As for the chain of command, I'm not arguing that point. I just think this one was a daft decision.
 
American said:
Yeah, but ONLY Gallagher was going to have his Trident taken; bull****!
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If I read things correctly, Gallagher was going to face a review board comprised of his peers.


*peer*

noun
1) a person of the same legal status:
a jury of one's peers.
2) a person who is equal to another in abilities, qualifications, age, background, and social status.

It’s also my understanding that Chief Gallagher’s charges were brought by hi peers.
 
Rexedgar said:
If I read things correctly, Gallagher was going to face a review board comprised of his peers.


*peer*

noun
1) a person of the same legal status:
a jury of one's peers.
2) a person who is equal to another in abilities, qualifications, age, background, and social status.

It’s also my understanding that Chief Gallagher’s charges were brought by hi peers.
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I believe there were flaws and bias involved.
 
Rexedgar said:
This is the pertinent part of your reply!
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You're right, because I didn't look it up. But the biggest is that someone else cop to the kill! That sort of deflated the dreams of his detractors. His peers seemed to have tried to set him up because they didn't like him.............sound familiar? Then the Navy brass ****ed up the review process by trying to have it both ways, and the Sec Navy got his ass caught trying to defy the President.
 
American said:
You're right, because I didn't look it up. But the biggest is that someone else cop to the kill! That sort of deflated the dreams of his detractors. His peers seemed to have tried to set him up because they didn't like him.............sound familiar? Then the Navy brass ****ed up the review process by trying to have it both ways, and the Sec Navy got his ass caught trying to defy the President.
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Your ever serve? When people are in close quarters and they need to depend on each other, ‘don’t like’ don’t hunt!

As far as the story surrounding the firing/termination of SECNAV, I agree. The narratives don’t line up.....sound familiar?
 
RaleBulgarian said:
.............................
One of the pics taken was of Gallagher kneeling next to the body while holding his knife. That doesn’t relieve the others of their own responsibility (personally, I believe all involved should have been charged), but it does however, reflect very badly on Gallagher’s leadership.
SEAL sentenced for posing with dead detainee

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Lets take this one picture and assume it's true. Why should others in this photo be charged if they're not posing in a manner that's degrading to the deceased enemy combatant?
 
dave8383 said:
Lets take this one picture and assume it's true. Why should others in this photo be charged if they're not posing in a manner that's degrading to the deceased enemy combatant?
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They did pose with the body. In order to spare those who might not want to see the picture, I’ve attached a link to an article that includes the picture in question. The dead body is blurred, but you can see Gallagher front and center, wearing a ball cap with some sort of design in red.
Navy upholds sentencing of Navy SEAL Chief Eddie Gallagher for posing with corpse -
Military members have been harshly disciplined for participating in “trophy photos” in the past. Now that president bone spurs has let Gallagher off the hook completely, what happens the next time? Can any service member be disciplined?
 
Either the US military maintains good order and discipline, or we turn a blind eye to war crimes.
Which one should it be?
What's it say about Trump that he chooses the latter?
 
The fired Sec of the Navy had a few words to say today

Ousted Navy chief: Trump's action sends message 'you can get away with things'

Former Navy Secretary Richard Spencer said Monday that President Trump's move to block a conduct review of a Navy SEAL acquitted of war crimes sends a message that service members "can get away with things."

Speaking in his first interview since his termination, Spencer emphasized to CBS News that the military needed to have "good order and discipline" and defended the review process initiated for Navy SEALs.

Asked about what message Trump's move to thwart the review of Chief Petty Officer Eddie Gallagher sent, Spencer responded, "That you can get away with things."
(. . .)
In a letter announcing his exit, Spencer appeared to contradict the Pentagon's reasoning for his ouster, saying that he was leaving because “I cannot in good conscience obey an order that I believe violates the sacred oath I took in the presence of my family, my flag and my faith to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

"Unfortunately, it has become apparent that in this respect, I no longer share the same understanding with the Commander in Chief who appointed me," Spencer wrote.
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