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Are we so weak and inept diplomatically that Turkey forced the hand of the United States of America?

Slartibartfast

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“Are we so weak and inept diplomatically that Turkey forced the hand of the United States of America? Turkey!?”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ses-very-troubling-theory-about-trump-turkey/

Romney Speech said:
“It’s been … suggested that Turkey may have called America’s bluff, telling the president they are coming no matter what we did,” said Romney, of Utah. “If that’s so, we should know it. For it would tell us a great deal about how we should deal with Turkey, now and in the future.”

“Are we so weak and inept diplomatically that Turkey forced the hand of the United States of America? Turkey!?” Romney said. “I believe that it’s imperative that public hearings are held to answer these questions, and I hope the Senate is able to conduct those hearings next week.”



Its known the president got rolled by Turkey and completely bungled the situation. However, this makes me wonder if this is the way out for the GOP where they can protect their brand yet consider voting for removing Trump from office for reasons their base can accept.

My hope is Pelosi is smart and includes the facts about Turkey in the articles of impeachment.
 
Something related to "great and unmatched wisdom" from our remaining Trump supporters in 5... 4... 3...
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ses-very-troubling-theory-about-trump-turkey/



Its known the president got rolled by Turkey and completely bungled the situation. However, this makes me wonder if this is the way out for the GOP where they can protect their brand yet consider voting for removing Trump from office for reasons their base can accept.

My hope is Pelosi is smart and includes the facts about Turkey in the articles of impeachment.

War hawks. Always willing to sacrifice other people to achieve their goals.

There were what, 24 soldiers located in that area at the time?

Turkey already had troops there, and let us know their intent. What exactly would those 24 men have been able to do?

Die nobly so we would then have another war, this time with Turkey? Surrender, and then be turned over to the US, but by doing so create an incident leading to cries for intervention anyway?

Or best case scenario, simply be ignored by the Turks who would go about their business doing what they intended anyway unconcerned by 24 "guards"?

It seems to me that what those of you and the war hawks in Congress wanted was for us to send MORE troops into the area to serve as a "body barrier." Yep, send more troops into a place we should not have been in in the first place!

That's the ticket! :doh

What is it with people in our country and their willingness to put OTHER Americans in harms way for political theater?

I'm on record calling for the USA pulling out of a situation we should never have gotten into in the first place. IMO and despite all the hooplah in the MSM seeking to make this Trump's fault, it really isn't.

The man promised to get the USA out, and he has been trying to do just that. Figuring out reasons to not only stay but increase our military presence? I don't agree with that at all.

IMO he did the right thing in this situation. Period.
 
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But..but...Hillary...email server...Biden...
 
Not only has Trump lied about the Syrian Kurds, but he is also spewing Putin and Erdogan propaganda.....

Fact check: Trump parrots talking points from Putin, Erdogan on Syria

Trump in many ways reminds me of those old Soviet Politburo members who continued telling lies even though everyone in Russia knew they were lying and they also knew everyone knew they were lying.

134AD9C6231CECF1305CB60AE69D505A58187784_size278_w950_h633.jpeg
 
Viewpoint: Syria could be beginning of end for Trump


.......................................................

When Erdogan told Trump in a recent phone conversation that he planned to send forces into Syria to eliminate the possibility of an autonomous Kurdish region along Turkey's border, it's likely he anticipated that Trump would offer minimal resistance.

After all, in another conversation in late 2018, Trump signaled his strong desire to withdraw US forces from Syria, reportedly telling Erdogan, "OK, it's all yours. We are done." Secretary of Defense James Mattis resigned as a result, one of the last national security "adults in the room" willing to contain Trump's impulses.

Ten months later, when Erdogan decided to act, he knew he was pushing against an open door.

While Trump's policy has elicited bipartisan criticism, even from Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, many Americans are weary of Middle East wars and support bringing the troops home.

But Trump did it in just about the worst possible way.

The relatively small US contingent, together with British and French counterparts, were there to prevent a resurgence of the Islamic State and act as a buffer pending a diplomatic process to chart how Syria would be reconstructed and governed going forward.

Despite his business background, Trump ceded whatever leverage the United States might have had to shape a new and improved Syria to Russia, Iran, the Assad regime and even the Islamic State.

Viewpoint: Syria could be beginning of end for Trump - BBC News
 
If people really want to talk about how bad Trump has been for Turkey, the Kurds and Syria I just want to make sure that we're talking about the WHOLE story.

Syria has been an absolute mess for more than half a century. When the Ba'athists took over in the 1960s the nation went to hell. They tried to invade Israel. The did invade Lebanon. The Syrian government has been killing their own people since the 1980s. When the current Assad took over for his father the country started hosting Islamist training sites and Saddam sent truckloads of military gear into Syria before the US invaded. The current civil war, which is kind of an extension of various uprisings since the 1970s, was supported by efforts of the Obama/Clinton State Department and has resulted in MILLIONS of Syrians fleeing the country.

The problems with Syria go back more than 50 years every single US administration since then has had to deal with something related to Syria or ignore stuff Syria was doing. There are no easy answers to Syria, Turkey the Kurds and other factions in the area. The primary goal really has to be stomping on militant jhadists and terrorists but every administration in the US and Europe has failed to come up with a good option.

If people want to blame Trump for everything that's fine. He hasn't come up with a solution either but it's REALLY unfair to lay 50 years of suck and failure at his feat when he's only been in office 3 years.
 
War hawks. Always willing to sacrifice other people to achieve their goals.

There were what, 24 soldiers located in that area at the time?

Turkey already had troops there, and let us know their intent. What exactly would those 24 men have been able to do?

Die nobly so we would then have another war, this time with Turkey? Surrender, and then be turned over to the US, but by doing so create an incident leading to cries for intervention anyway?

Or best case scenario, simply be ignored by the Turks who would go about their business doing what they intended anyway unconcerned by 24 "guards"?

It seems to me that what those of you and the war hawks in Congress wanted was for us to send MORE troops into the area to serve as a "body barrier." Yep, send more troops into a place we should not have been in in the first place!

That's the ticket! :doh

What is it with people in our country and their willingness to put OTHER Americans in harms way for political theater?

I'm on record calling for the USA pulling out of a situation we should never have gotten into in the first place. IMO and despite all the hooplah in the MSM seeking to make this Trump's fault, it really isn't.

The man promised to get the USA out, and he has been trying to do just that. Figuring out reasons to not only stay but increase our military presence? I don't agree with that at all.

IMO he did the right thing in this situation. Period.

It's also ironic that so many people are against this pull out, but then support pulling out from Afghanistan with no plan whatsoever. (Democrats Want Out of Afghanistan, So Why Not Syria? - The Atlantic)
 
If people really want to talk about how bad Trump has been for Turkey, the Kurds and Syria I just want to make sure that we're talking about the WHOLE story.

Syria has been an absolute mess for more than half a century. When the Ba'athists took over in the 1960s the nation went to hell. They tried to invade Israel. The did invade Lebanon. The Syrian government has been killing their own people since the 1980s. When the current Assad took over for his father the country started hosting Islamist training sites and Saddam sent truckloads of military gear into Syria before the US invaded. The current civil war, which is kind of an extension of various uprisings since the 1970s, was supported by efforts of the Obama/Clinton State Department and has resulted in MILLIONS of Syrians fleeing the country.

The problems with Syria go back more than 50 years every single US administration since then has had to deal with something related to Syria or ignore stuff Syria was doing. There are no easy answers to Syria, Turkey the Kurds and other factions in the area. The primary goal really has to be stomping on militant jhadists and terrorists but every administration in the US and Europe has failed to come up with a good option.

If people want to blame Trump for everything that's fine. He hasn't come up with a solution either but it's REALLY unfair to lay 50 years of suck and failure at his feat when he's only been in office 3 years.

Even Moscow Mitch is telling you to wake up vis-a-vis Trumps tuck and run.....

Mitch McConnell: Withdrawing from Syria is a grave mistake
 
War hawks. Always willing to sacrifice other people to achieve their goals.
There were what, 24 soldiers located in that area at the time?
Turkey already had troops there, and let us know their intent. What exactly would those 24 men have been able to do?
Die nobly so we would then have another war, this time with Turkey? Surrender, and then be turned over to the US, but by doing so create an incident leading to cries for intervention anyway?
Or best case scenario, simply be ignored by the Turks who would go about their business doing what they intended anyway unconcerned by 24 "guards"?
It seems to me that what those of you and the war hawks in Congress wanted was for us to send MORE troops into the area to serve as a "body barrier." Yep, send more troops into a place we should not have been in in the first place!
That's the ticket! :doh
What is it with people in our country and their willingness to put OTHER Americans in harms way for political theater?
I'm on record calling for the USA pulling out of a situation we should never have gotten into in the first place. IMO and despite all the hooplah in the MSM seeking to make this Trump's fault, it really isn't.
The man promised to get the USA out, and he has been trying to do just that. Figuring out reasons to not only stay but increase our military presence? I don't agree with that at all.
IMO he did the right thing in this situation. Period.
Turkey said they were coming in even if they had to harm Americans to do so?
So, Trump said, "Omigosh! How quickly can I back down and let you have you way?"

I doubt that Turkey was willing to harm Americans.
Allies don't do that ****.
Just like allies don't obliterate each other's economies.
 
Right wingers try at all times to leave the impression Putin and Assad don't exist.

And that they care about our troops so much they want to bring 'em home.

To give 'em surrender pay.
 
Is surrender pay another Tangmo fantasy?

This is wild! So many of these people just a bit ago wanted to 'end the wars' and 'bring the troops' home, but now want to continue the wars and keep the troops at risk.
 
This is wild! So many of these people just a bit ago wanted to 'end the wars' and 'bring the troops' home, but now want to continue the wars and keep the troops at risk.
When are the troops due home?

Will they be home in time for Christmas?
 
War hawks. Always willing to sacrifice other people to achieve their goals.

There were what, 24 soldiers located in that area at the time?

Turkey already had troops there, and let us know their intent. What exactly would those 24 men have been able to do?

Erdogan has been letting hot air loose for 18 months. A U.S. presence and active negotiation had already pretty much solved the issue, complete with buffer zones and joint military patrols. So what would have happened would have been "a carefully negotiated status quo".

Up until the President decided to go off script and "wing it", and pretty much ****ed everything.

When the President of the United States basically says that our security guarantee is worthless, that makes us less safe. When the President of the United States demonstrates to partner forces that they are better off not fighting on behalf of the United States (allowing us to conduct large campaigns with minimal deployment of U.S. troops) that makes us less safe. And when the President of the United States lets himself get rolled by a two-bit thug in Turkey, resulting in the abandonment of a partner and the release of thousands of ISIS fighters, that's also embarrassing, as well as making us less safe.

I'm on record calling for the USA pulling out of a situation we should never have gotten into in the first place.

Good point. It's not like ISIS or AQ have ever attacked the West, after all.
 
When are the troops due home?

Will they be home in time for Christmas?

They are going to Iraq, so.... no. All we are doing is leaving a better position for a worse position while trashing the U.S. security guarantee (again), demonstrating to any potential future partner forces that we will totes **** them if they are dumb enough to fight on our behalf, pushing the Kurds into Assad's lap, helping ISIS to re-establish itself, and creating a medium size humanitarian crises in the middle of a massive one.


A policy decision so stupid that even Republicans generally desperate to avoid pissing off Trump voters in their constituency couldn't stomach it, and the Administration started trying to find a way to backtrack within 48 hours, sending the vice president and secretary of state to beg the Turks to agree to the same deal we'd already had, before the president ****ed it by making it up as he went along.

yay.
 
...When the President of the United States basically says that our security guarantee is worthless, that makes us less safe. When the President of the United States demonstrates to partner forces that they are better off not fighting on behalf of the United States (allowing us to conduct large campaigns with minimal deployment of U.S. troops) that makes us less safe. And when the President of the United States lets himself get rolled by a two-bit thug in Turkey, resulting in the abandonment of a partner and the release of thousands of ISIS fighters, that's also embarrassing, as well as making us less safe.

Hyperbole. We should never had gone into Syria in the first place. Nor into Afghanistan before that. We have other methods of finding and eliminating small groups without going to war for YEARS over their actions.

Good point. It's not like ISIS or AQ have ever attacked the West, after all.

Whose actions created ISIS in the first place? Seems like OUR ongoing interference in the ME is the root of all the problems we see today. The chickens coming home to roost.

As for 9/11? We went to war because a group of terrorists organized a successful plot.

How would you like it if say, some nutter-fanatic Americans went to Russia and blew up the Kremlin.

Would Russia have a valid reason to declare war on the USA?

We need to stop constantly over-reacting, and start acting sensibly with a response that punishes the actual guilty and does not end up punishing us instead.
 
This is wild! So many of these people just a bit ago wanted to 'end the wars' and 'bring the troops' home, but now want to continue the wars and keep the troops at risk.

You guys want to pay twice for the same item.

First is surrender pay.

After that comes fighting 'em here instead of killing 'em over there.

Isolationism by Americans has always been a loser. It's put us into wars we had to win and that we did win. No thanks to isolationists who provide a clear path for enemy forces right to our front door.

Pearl Harbor came already to NYC and America's shores. You're paving the way for what will come next in our own homeland. I can only hope I'm wrong because I know I'm right.
 
Hyperbole. We should never had gone into Syria in the first place. Not into Afghanistan before that. We have other methods of finding and eliminating small groups without going to war for YEARS over their actions.

Not at all. Those are the hard facts that people in the foreign policy and security sphere's are having to deal with right now. Trashing the U.S. security guarantee does make us less safe. Convincing partners not to work with us does make us less safe. Releasing thousands of ISIS members does make us less safe. Having a POTUS so inept that he gets rolled in a phone call by a tin-pot dictator from Turkey and accidentally ****s over months of negotiation and a steady-state that met our interests' and Turkey's, forcing his administration to scramble madly just to get back to point zero and stop the losses, is also really embarrassing, and also makes us less safe.

We won a bigger war against ISIS than we ever did against AQI, and we did it with a bare fraction of the troops and a bare fraction of the casualties - because we were able to leverage local partners, particularly the Kurds, who did our fighting and dying for us. Trump just decided to **** all over that foreign policy option, meaning that, in the future, we will have to deploy more U.S. troops to destroy VEO's who launch attacks in the West.

Additionally,

A) We do not have the ability to project CT power or eliminate those groups without ground forces, so the presumption on which your argument is hinged is inaccurate. If you don't have a significant enough physical presence in Afghanistan, you don't have a CT program. :shrug:

B) The Taliban were the hosts of, protectors of, and enablers of, AQ. They chose their lot.

C) We didn't choose to go to war - they did. Wars start when one side decides to start it, and they end when both sides agree to end it... or one side is completely eradicated. In the meantime, you not being interested in War, will not stop War from being interested in you - and it doesn't end simply because one side gets bored.

Whose actions created ISIS in the first place?

Abu Omar al-Baghdadi decided to establish the Caliphate by splitting off from AQ major and declaring himself the Leader of the Faithful. The organization had previously been AQ in Iraq (AQI), having rebuilt from the shattered networks we left when we pulled out of Iraq the first time.

Seems like OUR ongoing interference in the ME is the root of all the problems we see today.

:lol: sure. Everything in the Middle East is America's fault because not only is that region naturally so stable, but it's well known that no one else in all the world ever makes their own decisions, for their own reasons, in their own context, because we - we, America - are so the center of the universe that the only possible reason anyone has for doing anything, ever, is "America". :mrgreen:

As for 9/11? We went to war because a group of terrorists

because a group of terrorists..... what?

launched the largest foreign attack on U.S. soil in almost two centuries? Declared war on us and murdered thousands of Americans?

How would you like it if say, some nutter-fanatic Americans went to Russia and blew up the Kremlin.

Would Russia have a valid reason to declare war on the USA?

If we were providing them shelter, enablement, and protection, if the "nutter-fanatic Americans" happened to all be "members of the U.S. Special Operations Community", well, yeah, absolutely they would.
 
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Hyperbole. We should never had gone into Syria in the first place. Nor into Afghanistan before that. We have other methods of finding and eliminating small groups without going to war for YEARS over their actions.



Whose actions created ISIS in the first place? Seems like OUR ongoing interference in the ME is the root of all the problems we see today. The chickens coming home to roost.

As for 9/11? We went to war because a group of terrorists organized a successful plot.

How would you like it if say, some nutter-fanatic Americans went to Russia and blew up the Kremlin.

Would Russia have a valid reason to declare war on the USA?

We need to stop constantly over-reacting, and start acting sensibly with a response that punishes the actual guilty and does not end up punishing us instead
.


How's the borscht today.

I ask a relevant question because you asked an idiotic question.
 
We... don't?

The last Administration did, under their PR front organization known as the Syrian Democratic Forces. A rather ironic name for a Marxist-Communist organization. And this was against the advice of many individuals, including the Army Special Forces Commander, the Secretary of Defense, and the Director of National Intelligence.

This support ended this month, at the same time the withdrawal of US forces was announced. To me this is support that should never have been given.
 
We betrayed our allies the Kurds.

Erdogan grabbed Trump by the balls and said to get our troops out.

It's being done now. It's a part of Trump's design to blowtorch US allies everywhere. Then turn his verbal flamethrower on critics and dissenters to include generals and admirals.


Several US generals and admirals expressed their disgust and bewilderment at Trump’s decision. Adm [Ret.] James Stavridis, former supreme allied commander of Nato, told MSNBC that it was a “geopolitical mistake of near epic proportion”. He said its long-term impact would be to cast doubt on the reliability of the US as an ally.

“It’s hard to imagine how one could, in a single stroke, re-enable Isis, elevate Iran, allow Vladimir Putin the puppet master to continue his upward trajectory and simultaneously put war criminal chemical-weapon user Bashar al-Assad in the driving seat in Syria.”

On the same channel, the former four-star general and battlefield commander in the Gulf, Barry McCaffrey, said the Syrian withdrawal was “inexplicable”. “Mr Trump seems to have single-handedly and unilaterally precipitated a national security crisis in the Middle East,” he said, adding that the president had put the armed forces in a “very tricky situation”.

Trump’s former national security adviser, HR McMaster, agreed that the decision would destabilize the region and intensify the Syrian civil war
.

General discontent: how the president's military men turned on Trump | US news | The Guardian
 
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