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Pullback Leaves Green Berets Feeling ‘Ashamed,’ and Kurdish Allies Describing ‘Betrayal’

Casper said:
I am sure you are clueless on the topic, but then again putting on a uniform and serving your Nation is probably also not in your skill set, so I understand where you get your opinion on the matter.
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If the idea of fighting a war and killing people over honor is your idea of what United States military personal should embrace then hopefully you never put on a uniform and serve for the nation because fighting wars and killing people should be done to save lives from those attacking innocent people.
 
Bodhisattva said:
If the idea of fighting a war and killing people over honor is your idea of what United States military personal should embrace then hopefully you never put on a uniform and serve for the nation because fighting wars and killing people should be done to save lives from those attacking innocent people.
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I served and did so with pride and honor, we both know you never have.
You are Dismissed....
 
Re: Pullback Leaves Green Berets Feeling ‘Ashamed,’ and Kurdish Allies Describing ‘Betrayal’

Tangmo said:
US needs to get those nukes out of Turkey forthwith.

Erdogan wants nukes and these US nukes are easy pickins for him. Washington needs to propose immediate negotiations with Erdogan to extract the nukes and if Erdogan refuses to negotiate we'd have to go in and get 'em -- every last one. Swiftly and in force if necessary.


From the Air Force Times:

Your Air Force

With Turkey’s invasion of Syria, concerns mount over nukes at Incirlik

HM7AUEYEMNELXPUKF37FEO47VY.jpg

A U.S. Air Force F-15E Strike Eagle lands at Incirlik Air Base, Turkey, in November 2015. The deteriorating relationship between the U.S. and Turkey has led to concerns about the nuclear weapons reportedly housed there. (Airman 1st Class Cory Bush/Air Force)


The Air Force on Monday said it has made no changes to daily operations at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey even as Turkish forces continue to push into Syrian territory, which has prompted U.S. forces to pull back.

But concerns are growing over the reported presence of U.S. nuclear weapons at Incirlik, believed to be about 50 B61 gravity bombs. The New York Times on Monday reported that officials from the State and Energy departments over the weekend reviewed plans for evacuating the nuclear weapons there.

A senior official reportedly told the Times that the weapons “were now essentially [Turkish President Recep] Erdogan’s hostages” since removing the weapons would effectively spell the end of America’s alliance with Turkey, but keeping them there would leave them vulnerable.

The question of whether nuclear weapons should remain at Incirlik took on greater urgency following the 2016 coup attempt in Turkey, during which the air base’s power was cut off by Erdogan’s government.

Concerns have only increased along with tensions between Ankara and the rest of NATO, especially as Turkey decided to accept a Russian-made S-400 air defense system in July.

With Turkey’s invasion of Syria, concerns mount over nukes at Incirlik


US has possession, command and control over the weapons and their delivery systems yet they are in Turkey where Turkish forces outnumber US forces immensely at this base and at other bases where US forces are present as a part of Nato. Given Trump is directed by hostile foreign factors he needs to listen to the Pentagon on this to include the Joint Chiefs and to the USAF supreme commander of Nato Gen. Tod Wolters, all of whom know what they're doing and what's going on.
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The one thing Putin’s puppet won’t do is coordinate with those he should on these ‘nuke hostages’. I fully expect #45 to give in to erDOGan on the F-35, with putin getting that technology. Turkey will keep their S-400s, have our nukes, and have the F-35.

The paper tiger DOG will stand down in Syria when Putin tells him to, then ask Vlad if he can buy some more of that advanced Russian weaponry, though. Jihadi proxies including Daesh will control northeast Syria, with Turkey’s ‘refugees’ resettled there. Kurds will be permanently cleansed from their autonomous homeland.

Putin now leads the new world order, militarily. China will soon lead the new world order, economically, as they are now backing out of ‘Phase One’ of that trade deal. It’s every country for itself now, both militarily and economically.

Putin in SA and the UAE on state visits. Mr. Vlad the Smirk. Qatar, our base, defends Turkey. How many new and overlapping alliances will be formed? Expect Israel to turn to India. Bibi already has a direct line to Vlad.
 
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Re: Pullback Leaves Green Berets Feeling ‘Ashamed,’ and Kurdish Allies Describing ‘Betrayal’

From a friend of mine who is a former instructor at the Ranger school and is sending out feelers for me to see how members of our SFs who had just been serving with the Kurds feel about the change. In the meantime he sent me the following:

"The SF guys do develop personal relationships with their indigenous counterparts and troops, especially when they perform well and show initiative. They also know that some day, they’ll have to leave and they hope they’ll be able to take care of themselves. However, a quick reversal like this was, with no advance warning, no opportunity to plan ahead, is not going to sit well.


I’ve checked in with a couple of folks. Will let you know what I hear back."
 
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dave8383 said:
From a friend of mine who is a former instructor at the Ranger school and is sending out feelers for me to see how members of our SFs who had just been serving with the Kurds feel about the change. In the meantime he sent me the following:

"The SF guys do develop personal relationships with their indigenous counterparts and troops, especially when they perform well and show initiative. They also know that some day, they’ll have to leave and they hope they’ll be able to take care of themselves. However, a quick reversal like this was, with no advance warning, no opportunity to plan ahead, is not going to sit well.


I’ve checked in with a couple of folks. Will let you know what I hear back."
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Cool story but I don’t believe you. And you understand that Ranger School instructors have no connection with Special Forces that they would put out feelers with so the odds of your story being true and not just made up BS are very low. If you are going to try and make up a story at least make it believable.

Besides I don’t need to put out feelers to see how SF guys feel about this. I just asked my fellow SF team members.
 
Casper said:
I am sure you are clueless on the topic, but then again putting on a uniform and serving your Nation is probably also not in your skill set, so I understand where you get your opinion on the matter.
Click to expand...

Bodhisattva said:
If the idea of fighting a war and killing people over honor is your idea of what United States military personal should embrace then hopefully you never put on a uniform and serve for the nation because fighting wars and killing people should be done to save lives from those attacking innocent people.
Click to expand...

We're not talking about "honor killings" or there being a war over "honor."

Here rather is what we're talking about.


Emblem of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, New York

U.S._Military_Academy_COA.png





U.S. Air Force Uniform Badge of Honor

th





U.S. Navy Sailors Creed

1st-term-success-workshop-introduction-3-638.jpg





U.S. Marine Corps Code

honor_courage_commitment.png
 
braindrain said:
Cool story but I don’t believe you. And you understand that Ranger School instructors have no connection with Special Forces that they would put out feelers with so the odds of your story being true and not just made up BS are very low. If you are going to try and make up a story at least make it believable.

Besides I don’t need to put out feelers to see how SF guys feel about this. I just asked my fellow SF team members.
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That's no made up story and it's very revealing that you would say it was.

Funny that you couldn't articulate this: "The SF guys do develop personal relationships with their indigenous counterparts and troops, especially when they perform well and show initiative. They also know that some day, they’ll have to leave and they hope they’ll be able to take care of themselves. However, a quick reversal like this was, with no advance warning, no opportunity to plan ahead, is not going to sit well", but he could. Funny that you didn't learn any of these things when you were "serving with the Kurds". or other indigenous forces.
 
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Re: Pullback Leaves Green Berets Feeling ‘Ashamed,’ and Kurdish Allies Describing ‘Betrayal’

"In Syria, Russia Is Pleased to Fill an American Void

As the United States withdraws from Syria, Russia is stepping in, running patrols to separate warring factions, striking deals and helping President Bashar al-Assad advance.

Published Oct. 15, 2019
Updated Oct. 16, 2019, 6:19 a.m. ET

1199
DOHUK, Iraq — Russia asserted itself in a long-contested part of Syria on Tuesday after the United States pulled out, giving Moscow a new opportunity to press for Syrian army gains and project itself as a rising power broker in the Middle East.

Russian and Syrian troops drove through a key town where the United States had held sway and picked over abandoned American outposts to announce their presence in the area and deter the Turkish incursion that began last week.

The Russian advance, enabled by President Trump’s decision last week to withdraw, may boost Russia’s Syrian ally, President Bashar al-Assad, while blunting the Turkish incursion. It was a telling demonstration of how influence over the eight-year-old conflict in Syria has shifted from the United States to Russia. But in this case, there appeared to be little balance left in the Americans’ favor.

“Look at how they were preparing the base,” a Russian-speaking reporter said in a video shot inside an abandoned American outpost in northeastern Syria, its water tanks, communication towers, tents and fridges full of soda all left behind. “They thought they were going to be here for a long time.”


In Syria, Russia Is Pleased to Fill an American Void - The New York Times
 
Re: Pullback Leaves Green Berets Feeling ‘Ashamed,’ and Kurdish Allies Describing ‘Betrayal’

Trump's latest bone spur flare up gift wraps the Kurds and hands them over to Russia, and al-Assad.

 
Rogue Valley said:
Pullback Leaves Green Berets Feeling ‘Ashamed,’ and Kurdish Allies Describing ‘Betrayal’ | New York Times

1822099_525_350_w.jpg

Kurdish troops in the Syrian town of Manbij, near the border with Turkey

I feel for our in-theater SOF and the Kurds. Dealt a super-crappy hand by a super-crappy president.
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The president yielded to pressures at home to find ways to extract American troops from foreign theaters. Trump pulled 26 troops out of Syria. I hardly see that as something his opponents should think is mind blowing or earthshattering because it is not.
 
dave8383 said:
That's no made up story and it's very revealing that you would say it was.

Funny that you couldn't articulate this: "The SF guys do develop personal relationships with their indigenous counterparts and troops, especially when they perform well and show initiative. They also know that some day, they’ll have to leave and they hope they’ll be able to take care of themselves. However, a quick reversal like this was, with no advance warning, no opportunity to plan ahead, is not going to sit well", but he could. Funny that you didn't learn any of these things when you were "serving with the Kurds". or other indigenous forces.
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Yeah but I simply don’t believe you.

Why would I need to articulate that fake story that you simply made up. And let’s just pretend it’s true. That is one persons opinion and furthermore if you think it is good military to announce you withdraw to the people you are getting to do your wishes then you are even more clueless then I thought. You don’t convince people to risk their lives by tell them oh we are leaving soon. And I can tell you that the number of SF guys who actually do develop personality relationships is rather small. In fact it is reinforced through out the Q course that it’s a bad idea to do so. Most guys understand the reality of the situation and that is that the people we work with are the tools we use to accomplish our goals. Sure pretending you like them and support them will help you with getting them to do what you want but that is all it is. Pretending.
 
braindrain said:
Yeah but I simply don’t believe you.

Why would I need to articulate that fake story that you simply made up. And let’s just pretend it’s true. That is one persons opinion and furthermore if you think it is good military to announce you withdraw to the people you are getting to do your wishes then you are even more clueless then I thought. You don’t convince people to risk their lives by tell them oh we are leaving soon. And I can tell you that the number of SF guys who actually do develop personality relationships is rather small. In fact it is reinforced through out the Q course that it’s a bad idea to do so. Most guys understand the reality of the situation and that is that the people we work with are the tools we use to accomplish our goals. Sure pretending you like them and support them will help you with getting them to do what you want but that is all it is. Pretending.
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I can assure you the guy who sent me that message has forgotten more about the military, and fighting with foreign troops, than you'll ever know.

Now you can go back to your Trump talking points.


"The SF guys do develop personal relationships with their indigenous counterparts and troops, especially when they perform well and show initiative. They also know that some day, they’ll have to leave and they hope they’ll be able to take care of themselves. However, a quick reversal like this was, with no advance warning, no opportunity to plan ahead, is not going to sit well"
 
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Casper said:
I served and did so with pride and honor, we both know you never have.
You are Dismissed....
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I never indicated that I did and I can assure you that I never would... but I bet I do more serving the country more in doing my job than you ever did in the military. Dismiss yourself.... :lol: 'dismissed"... that is some funny ****.
 
Tangmo said:
We're not talking about "honor killings" or there being a war over "honor."

Here rather is what we're talking about.


Emblem of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, New York

U.S._Military_Academy_COA.png





U.S. Air Force Uniform Badge of Honor

th





U.S. Navy Sailors Creed

1st-term-success-workshop-introduction-3-638.jpg





U.S. Marine Corps Code

honor_courage_commitment.png
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I understand exactly what honor means in this context. My initial statement... that Casper decided to start insulting me about... is spot on. Fighting a war BECAUSE of honor is stupid. Fighting wars to SAVE LIVES or DEFEND ONESELF is absolutely fine. One does that with honor and in the service of honor. Fighting BECAUSE of honor means that the one fighting HAS NO HONOR.
 
The problem here is that we never should have backed the PKK in the first place.

A terrorist organization, which many countries and organizations recognize as a terrorist group. The brief support that the US was giving them was one of the biggest mistakes of the previous administration.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I understand exactly what honor means in this context. My initial statement... that Casper decided to start insulting me about... is spot on. Fighting a war BECAUSE of honor is stupid. Fighting wars to SAVE LIVES or DEFEND ONESELF is absolutely fine. One does that with honor and in the service of honor. Fighting BECAUSE of honor means that the one fighting HAS NO HONOR.
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Your problem there down under is that you are focused on one word. It is your remote interpretation and understanding of the word. So you take 'honor' and you try to apply it in isolation. And it's the wrong word anyway.

Look to the topic title for the accurate word, which is "betrayal."

Betrayal applies because of the military code. I have presented the code as it exists for each armed service of the USA.

Duty, Honor, Country.
Return With Honor.
Honor, Courage, Commitment.

You're simply missing the whole of it. The reason is that you are completely removed from it. You don't have any background in the military code and you haven't any present in it. Neither is there anything of it in your future down there.

The problem for so many in the US armed forces with this catastrophe is that Trump has no code nor can he recognize a code when it's presented to him. Nor does Trump care about a code. Which leaves each of you completely off base. Indeed, we see what occurs when the commander in chief hasn't any code and dismisses existing codes.

Betrayal is the word and it is the predictable flaw of character that applies. If you try hard enough you might be able to get focused on the applicable issue.
 
dave8383 said:
I can assure you the guy who sent me that message has forgotten more about the military, and fighting with foreign troops, than you'll ever know.

Now you can go back to your Trump talking points.


"The SF guys do develop personal relationships with their indigenous counterparts and troops, especially when they perform well and show initiative. They also know that some day, they’ll have to leave and they hope they’ll be able to take care of themselves. However, a quick reversal like this was, with no advance warning, no opportunity to plan ahead, is not going to sit well"
Click to expand...

Once again I don’t believe you. And the likelihood of your story being true is not very high. If you knew much about the military you would know that.

And I am far from a trump supporter so you can just take your little games elsewhere.
 
braindrain said:
Once again I don’t believe you. And the likelihood of your story being true is not very high. If you knew much about the military you would know that.

And I am far from a trump supporter so you can just take your little games elsewhere.
Click to expand...


That's no story. Considering I recieve a 100% for multiple gunshot and sharpnel wounds, I know enough. And the individual who wrote that note to me has more experience than most.

Only a fool would react the way you are, calling someone a liar for quoating a totaly innocent note from a friend. Bizzare. You're a Trumpster. that' all. I haven't seen you put a post up yet that didn't have a pro Trump agrenda. You might be a Russian propagandist .
 
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dave8383 said:
That's no story. Considering I recieve a 100% for multiple gunshot and sharpnel wounds, I know enough. And the individual who wrote that note to me has more experience than most.

Only a fool would react the way you are, calling someone a liar for quoating a totaly innocent note from a friend. Bizzare. You're a Trumpster. that' all. I haven't seen you put a post up yet that didn't have a pro Trump agrenda. You might be a Russian propagandist .
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Another good indicator that’s someone is not being honest of their story just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Just like you are doing here.
And no I don’t believe you at all.

You can call me what ever makes you want. Doesn’t make them any more true. Follow me around all over the forum just like you are and all it does is prove just how much you are suffering from tds. It’s rather pathetic.
 
braindrain said:
Another good indicator that’s someone is not being honest of their story just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Just like you are doing here.
And no I don’t believe you at all.

You can call me what ever makes you want. Doesn’t make them any more true. Follow me around all over the forum just like you are and all it does is prove just how much you are suffering from tds. It’s rather pathetic.
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So you're an asshole, the world is full of them.
 
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Tangmo said:
Your problem there down under is that you are focused on one word. It is your remote interpretation and understanding of the word. So you take 'honor' and you try to apply it in isolation. And it's the wrong word anyway.

Look to the topic title for the accurate word, which is "betrayal."

Betrayal applies because of the military code. I have presented the code as it exists for each armed service of the USA.

Duty, Honor, Country.
Return With Honor.
Honor, Courage, Commitment.

You're simply missing the whole of it. The reason is that you are completely removed from it. You don't have any background in the military code and you haven't any present in it. Neither is there anything of it in your future down there.

The problem for so many in the US armed forces with this catastrophe is that Trump has no code nor can he recognize a code when it's presented to him. Nor does Trump care about a code. Which leaves each of you completely off base. Indeed, we see what occurs when the commander in chief hasn't any code and dismisses existing codes.

Betrayal is the word and it is the predictable flaw of character that applies. If you try hard enough you might be able to get focused on the applicable issue.
Click to expand...

Betrayal is also not a concept that one should fight wars over... and please, those in the military do not own the term "honor" or any others like "commitment", "service", "courage" , "discipline" or any others... additionally, there is a reason that POTUS is a civilian and not a member of the military. You are missing my point if you think that I am arguing a word... I am arguing a mindset...
 
Bodhisattva said:
Betrayal is also not a concept that one should fight wars over... and please, those in the military do not own the term "honor" or any others like "commitment", "service", "courage" , "discipline" or any others... additionally, there is a reason that POTUS is a civilian and not a member of the military. You are missing my point if you think that I am arguing a word... I am arguing a mindset...
Click to expand...

The military is an armed force of the state that the society establishes to protect it and to defend it as necessary. That is why in a democracy there is civilian control of the military armed force.

It's civil-military relations 101.

The armed forces must be prepared to fight in war. To be prepared and to fight effectively and victoriously the military has a code. The code includes discipline, good order, a system of rank, hierarchy, a subordinate-superordinate relationship, courage, honor, duty; chain of command and a rigorous system of military justice. Your duty is to the code of the society, ie, a constitution. You are trained and prepared to kill the armed enemy to protect it, defend it, preserve it -- against all enemies foreign and domestic.

Your mindset down under on your islands is that the military are confused and don't know the nature of the beast that it is. Yet you fail to recognize the differences between civilian courage and military courage. You fail to acknowledge the differences between civilian and military honor, commitment, service, discipline and so on. No one said civilians don't possess or practice these values. Civilians however have a radically different command and practice of these values, and necessarily so.

Civil-military relations reveal the difference between, say, a police officer and a soldier. A firefighter and a sailor. A Delta Airlines pilot and a pilot in the cockpit of an F-16 Fighting Falcon Viper of the USAF. A mayor and your colonel. We're talking common jobs in many instances that are however radically different in the nature of each. And we're talking about completely different jobs and values; manner of living and dying.

Your problem is that you're on your islands down there near Antarctica with a couple of million people trying to play with the big boys in the real world up here. That is, your mindset is isolated and small because that's what your life's experience is. You need to allow for that but you do not. The reason is that you don't recognize or cannot accept the difference.
 
Tangmo said:
The military is an armed force of the state that the society establishes to protect it and to defend it as necessary. That is why in a democracy there is civilian control of the military armed force.

It's civil-military relations 101.

The armed forces must be prepared to fight in war. To be prepared and to fight effectively and victoriously the military has a code. The code includes discipline, good order, a system of rank, hierarchy, a subordinate-superordinate relationship, courage, honor, duty; chain of command and a rigorous system of military justice. Your duty is to the code of the society, ie, a constitution. You are trained and prepared to kill the armed enemy to protect it, defend it, preserve it -- against all enemies foreign and domestic.

Your mindset down under on your islands is that the military are confused and don't know the nature of the beast that it is. Yet you fail to recognize the differences between civilian courage and military courage. You fail to acknowledge the differences between civilian and military honor, commitment, service, discipline and so on. No one said civilians don't possess or practice these values. Civilians however have a radically different command and practice of these values, and necessarily so.

Civil-military relations reveal the difference between, say, a police officer and a soldier. A firefighter and a sailor. A Delta Airlines pilot and a pilot in the cockpit of an F-16 Fighting Falcon Viper of the USAF. A mayor and your colonel. We're talking common jobs in many instances that are however radically different in the nature of each. And we're talking about completely different jobs and values; manner of living and dying.

Your problem is that you're on your islands down there near Antarctica with a couple of million people trying to play with the big boys in the real world up here. That is, your mindset is isolated and small because that's what your life's experience is. You need to allow for that but you do not. The reason is that you don't recognize or cannot accept the difference.
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Other than the fact that I am an American that lived in California for about 40 years does not negate the fact that pretty much everything you said in your post is completely off point and has, almost literally, nothing to do with what I said... but sure... think that being near Antarctica means anything at all. :lol:
 
Bodhisattva said:
Other than the fact that I am an American that lived in California for about 40 years does not negate the fact that pretty much everything you said in your post is completely off point and has, almost literally, nothing to do with what I said... but sure... think that being near Antarctica means anything at all. :lol:
Click to expand...

My post discussed civil-military relations 101 which is where you need to start.

The minor theme is the cause effect of your deficiencies in this regard. Whatever the origin of your deficit in civil-military relations you need to improve your knowledge of them and your awareness and understanding. I'm pointing out that your bent against the military because it has a code you cannot comprehend is an important matter you need to address.
 
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