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Thread: Trumpís Defense Cuts in Europe Will Backfire

  1. #91
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    Re: Trumpís Defense Cuts in Europe Will Backfire

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    LOL You keep saying that Russia has no interest in the rest of Europe yet Putin is heavily involved in destabilizing nearly every country there. He is a threat to every democracy in the entire world. We ignore and appease him at our peril.
    You mistake the intent to take over militarily with the intent to ensure a government that is friendly to it. One is cheap, one is expensive. Putin wants friendly governments to it around it and works to ensure that is the case. But that does not mean they will invade them and take them over
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    Re: Trumpís Defense Cuts in Europe Will Backfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    You mistake the intent to take over militarily with the intent to ensure a government that is friendly to it. One is cheap, one is expensive. Putin wants friendly governments to it around it and works to ensure that is the case. But that does not mean they will invade them and take them over
    LOL The USSR was a union of "friendly" Govts. with Kremlin puppets at their head. Are you saying we should not be worried about a reconstitution of the USSR? Syria and Venezuela are now ruled by puppets of Putin how many more countries will fall prey to his thuggery if we do not oppose him?
    Last edited by iguanaman; 09-28-19 at 08:20 PM.
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    Re: Trumpís Defense Cuts in Europe Will Backfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishking View Post
    No reason to have all that money transferred out of our economy into theirs. We can use that money for ourselves.
    Same as the "Peace Dividend" at the end of the Cold War with Russia that nobody ever saw.

    The make believe peace dividend was supposed to have improved schools and education, medical care, roads and transport and so on.

    And that was when the Cold War which was real ended much to the great relief of virtually everyone. Nato keeps the peace in Europe and the USA is its mainframe to include the military command of it. So I have to wonder what it is the Putin-Trump Rowers want to end this time. No I don't wonder at all actually.
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    Re: Trumpís Defense Cuts in Europe Will Backfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangmo View Post
    Same as the "Peace Dividend" at the end of the Cold War with Russia that nobody ever saw.

    The make believe peace dividend was supposed to have improved schools and education, medical care, roads and transport and so on.

    And that was when the Cold War which was real ended much to the great relief of virtually everyone. Nato keeps the peace in Europe and the USA is its mainframe to include the military command of it. So I have to wonder what it is the Putin-Trump Rowers want to end this time. No I don't wonder at all actually.
    NATO's roll was to make an alliance against the U.S.S.R. and the Warsaw Pact when tensions were high post WWII and on for a bit. NATO's roll now is increasing tensions and making things worse. It was supposed to be a defensive alliance but not anymore. Further, when NATO includes countries like Turkey, it's integrity is wholly compromised.
    ďThere are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies.Ē ― Glen Cook, Chronicles of the Black Company

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    Re: Trumpís Defense Cuts in Europe Will Backfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishking View Post
    NATO's roll was to make an alliance against the U.S.S.R. and the Warsaw Pact when tensions were high post WWII and on for a bit. NATO's roll now is increasing tensions and making things worse. It was supposed to be a defensive alliance but not anymore. Further, when NATO includes countries like Turkey, it's integrity is wholly compromised.
    You don't address my post.

    You're simply making a speech.

    It's a speech the American Right has been making since Putin returned to the presidency of Russia in 2012 as Mr. Global Conservative Rightist and since Trump was installed as potus in the 2016 election. Which makes your speech a fail.

    And which also means you'd need to let Nato led by US commanders and elected officials in Washington and throughout Europe deal with Turkey rather than assume you can try to alarm us about Erdogan. Erdogan instead lost a big election in Istanbul this year even though he canceled the first defeat only to get blown out by the second vote that elected an opposition mayor. Turkey is in a recession, the Lira has become a loser and Erdogan's power is waning.

    So I say again, Nato is a military alliance commanded by US generals and admirals to defend Europe against competing ideological and philosophical powers. That's Russia. It's Iran, ISIS, Taliban, China, NK and a bunch of others.

    Putin demonstrated his shameless belligerence by invading Ukraine which is the first time since WW II a nation in the region used military force to change the borders of a neighbor nation. That's Russia in Ukraine. Your Russia. I say your Russia because it is my considered judgement and opinion that your posts are among those that do not have the interests of the United States as their theme or purpose or goal. And because it is more than obvious.
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    Re: Trumpís Defense Cuts in Europe Will Backfire

    Quote Originally Posted by BahamaBob View Post
    If it wasn't for the US, the USSR would still exist. They would definitely own Germany and probably other Western European nations too. In addition, Canada would probably be one of their satellites.
    Actually, I do not think this is quite true.

    One of the main reasons that the USSR was able to hold out like it could was the logistical support the US was able to give them. Mostly trucks, but also trains and railcars.

    During the entire war, the Soviets only made 92 locomotives, and around 400 railcars. Lend-Lease on the other hand provided them with over 2,000 locomotives, and over 11,000 railcars. And almost 19,000 aircraft. And most importantly, over 400,000 vehicles (mostly large trucks).

    And then later on, the US opened up a second (then third) front, which eased the ability of the Soviets to counter-attack.

    Now imagine a world without Lend-Lease, or the US entering the war against Germany. Would the Soviets have survived the war? More than likely, it was simply to large for the Germans to conquer. But it would be a vastly different country than it was at the end of the war.

    Without Lend-Lease, odds are they would have lost Moscow. And been unable to move their industrial capability out of Stalingrad. Odds are they probably would have lost everything West of Moscow, and everything from Volodga south to Kuybyshev likely would have ended up in the hands of the Germans. At that point the lines would likely have stabilized, being really the extent that German logistical lines could reach. The leadership of both nations would likely have reached a cease-fire at that point, and a long-going war of attrition and guerrilla warfare would have extended. With both sides probably sending "deniable" raids across the borders to weaken or demoralize the other side.

    But because of the crippling of their logistical abilities without US support, they would not have been able to invade Eastern Europe (let alone Germany). The factories in Stalingrad would have become German factories, and the massive build-up would never have happened. The Stalingrad Tractor Factory would not have churned out over 35,000 T-34 tanks for the Red Army. The Red October Steel Plant would not have been producing steel that would be used in everything from tanks and artillery, to rocket launchers, mortars, and tens of millions of small arms (made by the Barrikady Weapons Factory).

    More than anything else, it was the logistical support provided by the US that saved the Soviet Union. And most Soviet leaders (both military and political) at the time recognize this as a fact.

    Without American machines the United Nations could never have won the war.
    Joseph Stalin, 1943 Tehran Conference.

    Today some say the Allies didn't really help us... But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war.
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    Re: Trumpís Defense Cuts in Europe Will Backfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    Actually, I do not think this is quite true.

    One of the main reasons that the USSR was able to hold out like it could was the logistical support the US was able to give them. Mostly trucks, but also trains and railcars.

    During the entire war, the Soviets only made 92 locomotives, and around 400 railcars. Lend-Lease on the other hand provided them with over 2,000 locomotives, and over 11,000 railcars. And almost 19,000 aircraft. And most importantly, over 400,000 vehicles (mostly large trucks).

    And then later on, the US opened up a second (then third) front, which eased the ability of the Soviets to counter-attack.

    Now imagine a world without Lend-Lease, or the US entering the war against Germany. Would the Soviets have survived the war? More than likely, it was simply to large for the Germans to conquer. But it would be a vastly different country than it was at the end of the war.

    Without Lend-Lease, odds are they would have lost Moscow. And been unable to move their industrial capability out of Stalingrad. Odds are they probably would have lost everything West of Moscow, and everything from Volodga south to Kuybyshev likely would have ended up in the hands of the Germans. At that point the lines would likely have stabilized, being really the extent that German logistical lines could reach. The leadership of both nations would likely have reached a cease-fire at that point, and a long-going war of attrition and guerrilla warfare would have extended. With both sides probably sending "deniable" raids across the borders to weaken or demoralize the other side.

    But because of the crippling of their logistical abilities without US support, they would not have been able to invade Eastern Europe (let alone Germany). The factories in Stalingrad would have become German factories, and the massive build-up would never have happened. The Stalingrad Tractor Factory would not have churned out over 35,000 T-34 tanks for the Red Army. The Red October Steel Plant would not have been producing steel that would be used in everything from tanks and artillery, to rocket launchers, mortars, and tens of millions of small arms (made by the Barrikady Weapons Factory).

    More than anything else, it was the logistical support provided by the US that saved the Soviet Union. And most Soviet leaders (both military and political) at the time recognize this as a fact.


    Joseph Stalin, 1943 Tehran Conference.


    Marshal Georgy Zhukov, 1963 interview with Pravda.
    That is one way of looking at it. The other way is that the lend lease program contributed in making Germany commit so much equipment and men to the Russian front that it made the Normandy invasion possible. Shortening the war considerably and saving countless ally lives.

  8. #98
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    Re: Trumpís Defense Cuts in Europe Will Backfire

    Quote Originally Posted by BahamaBob View Post
    That is one way of looking at it. The other way is that the lend lease program contributed in making Germany commit so much equipment and men to the Russian front that it made the Normandy invasion possible. Shortening the war considerably and saving countless ally lives.
    Does not matter.

    Because without the US, England lacks the resources to invade Normandy in the first place.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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