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Thread: The political, religious and ideological views that drove Hilter and the Nazi regime

  1. #121
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    Re: The political, religious and ideological views that drove Hilter and the Nazi regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Merc View Post
    Nazi 25 point program, you have to explain how these are not socialist ideals...

    7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
    Really? Socialism, an ideology based around the idea that class, not race, defines the divide between humans and insists that all people are members of the working class, and you're really trying to argue that's the Nazi demands of expelling foreigners is a socialist idea?

    25. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: "The good of the community before the good of the individual".[13] ("GEMEINNUTZ GEHT VOR EIGENNUTZ"
    This is not a socialist concept by any means.

    You are demonstrating a laughably inaccurate understanding of what socialism actually stands for.
    “We were all of us cogs in a great machine which sometimes rolled forward, nobody knew where, sometimes backwards, nobody knew why.”

    ― Ernst Toller

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    Re: The political, religious and ideological views that drove Hilter and the Nazi regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Merc View Post
    Thx

    I was under the impression that minorities including the religious, Christians, etc were chopped up by his war machine as well? I was under the impression that Hitler (in his later life) was an atheist, can anyone confirm this? Redbarron, Oozelfinch? We really do need to talk about his faith as I see this is a key component to driving Hitler's actions. Although not as key as his hate for the Jewish people.
    Hitler believed in the Christian god, but his faith was not as important to him as to serve as the primary justification for his beliefs. He didn't hate Jews, communists, or Slavs because he was a Christian.
    “We were all of us cogs in a great machine which sometimes rolled forward, nobody knew where, sometimes backwards, nobody knew why.”

    ― Ernst Toller

  3. #123
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    Re: The political, religious and ideological views that drove Hilter and the Nazi regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Merc View Post
    Oozle - we are going to have to talk about this in detail. I have it on good authority that Lincoln was in fact diametrically opposed to socialism. Shall we talk about his faith in God and how that influenced his views on politics? Or we can do that later.
    Lincoln and Marx wrote a great many letters back and forth. And do not forget, at the time the Republicans were the "Radical Revolutionary Liberal" party.

    But here, let's play a little game. Which of the following quotes do you think was made by President Lincoln, and which by Karl Marx?

    1. I affirm as my conviction that class laws, placing capital above labor, are more dangerous to the Republic at this hour then chattel slavery in the days of its haughtiest supremacy. Labor is prior to and above capital, and deserves much higher consideration.

    2. Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. Capital has its rights, which are as worthy of protection as any other rights.

    3. And inasmuch as most good things are produced by labour, it follows that all such things of right belong to those whose labour has produced them. But it has so happened in all ages of the world, that some have labored, and others have, without labour, enjoyed a large proportion of the fruits. This is wrong, and should not continue. To secure to each labourer the whole product of his labour, or as nearly as possible, is a most worthy object of any good government.

    And do not forget, this was when Socialism had yet to be influences of the more radical Marx. As so many do, you are confusing Socialism (especially in the traditional sense) with Marxism.

    Socialism by itself does not demand revolution, or the rejection of religion. In fact, the earliest Socialist movements in most of Europe and the US were all based upon religion. The Shakers, the Quakers, the Amana Colony, and a great many more. All were Socialist Communes, and based on religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Merc View Post
    Its very important to understand Lincoln as the definitive conservative of his day. Without this critical understanding an accurate perception of American politics to follow is not possible. You don't think the act of "freeing the slaves" was a move made by socialist, do you?
    Oh no, no, no, no, no! If you think that, then you are completely and utterly wrong.

    In that era (and into the 1960's), the Republicans were always the wild, reactionary party. The ones not afraid of revolution, who fought a civil war to end slavery, who under Teddy Roosevelt fused the Sherman Anti-Trust Act to reign in the excesses of corporations, and also under TR enacted the Pure Food and Drug Act, which led to the creation of the FDA.

    Lincoln and most of his supporters were the "Radical Liberals" of the era, and it was the Democrats that were the "Reactionary" ultra-Conservatives. The only reason that they appear to be Conservative now is that in the 1960's the Democrats largely imploded and made a hard shift to the Left.

    The newspaper considered to be the "Mouthpiece of the Republicans" was the New York Tribune, edited by Horace Greeley. And Karl Marx was a frequent writer for that paper. And the letters between the President and Marx were often delivered by the US Ambassador to England, Charles Francis Adams (son and Grandson of 2 Presidents).

    If you think Lincoln was a Conservative, you need to look into him a bit more. He was far from a Conservative.
    Last edited by Oozlefinch; 09-30-19 at 10:18 PM.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

  4. #124
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    Re: The political, religious and ideological views that drove Hilter and the Nazi regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Merc View Post
    I was under the impression that Hitler (in his later life) was an atheist, can anyone confirm this?
    Hitler despised religion.

    He only joined the Roman Catholic Church for his mother, and he had to be coaxed through the process. And once he left home he never attended any service again. And those of his inner circle who survived the war spoke at length about his disdain and even hatred of religion.

    However, it also did not stop him from encouraging his followers (especially highly placed ones) from being members and attending services. He was a politician, and made frequent use of the Church to advance his own agenda. But he himself never believed.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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    Re: The political, religious and ideological views that drove Hilter and the Nazi regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    Lincoln and Marx wrote a great many letters back and forth. And do not forget, at the time the Republicans were the "Radical Revolutionary Liberal" party.

    If you think Lincoln was a Conservative, you need to look into him a bit more. He was far from a Conservative.
    Ahh but that's where you are mistaken. Lincoln and his party were called radical and destructive, but he counted himself among the earliest defenders of conservative principles, which was in essence a defense of time-honored, traditional values. Lincoln said that out of the 39 framers of the Constitution, 23 of the 39 voted on whether to prevent the spread of slavery, and that 21 of the 23 voted in favor of doing so. Lincoln therefore said that it was the pro-slavery South that was radically breaking with the tradition begun by those that created the Constitution. As Lincoln said:

    But you say you are conservative—eminently conservative—while we are revolutionary, destructive, or something of the sort. What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried? We stick to, contend for, the identical old policy on the point in controversy which was adopted by "our fathers who framed the Government under which we live"; while you with one accord reject, and scout, and spit upon that old policy, and insist upon substituting something new. True, you disagree among yourselves as to what that substitute shall be. You are divided on new propositions and plans, but you are unanimous in rejecting and denouncing the old policy of the fathers. Some of you are for reviving the foreign slave trade; some for a Congressional Slave-Code for the Territories; some for Congress forbidding the Territories to prohibit Slavery within their limits; some for maintaining Slavery in the Territories through the judiciary; some for the "gur-reat pur-rinciple" that "if one man would enslave another, no third man should object", fantastically called "Popular Sovereignty"; but never a man among you is in favor of federal prohibition of slavery in federal territories, according to the practice of "our fathers who framed the Government under which we live". Not one of all your various plans can show a precedent or an advocate in the century within which our Government originated. Consider, then, whether your claim of conservatism for yourselves, and your charge of destructiveness against us, are based on the most clear and stable foundations.

    Also this:

    Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

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    Re: The political, religious and ideological views that drove Hilter and the Nazi regime

    I found this quote to be particularly patriotic (but not related)
    The question recurs, "how shall we fortify against it?" The answer is simple. Let every American, every lover of liberty, every well wisher to his posterity, swear by the blood of the Revolution, never to violate in the least particular, the laws of the country; and never to tolerate their violation by others. As the patriots of seventy-six did to the support of the Declaration of Independence, so to the support of the Constitution and Laws, let every American pledge his life, his property, and his sacred honor;--let every man remember that to violate the law, is to trample on the blood of his father, and to tear the character of his own, and his children's liberty. Let reverence for the laws, be breathed by every American mother, to the lisping babe, that prattles on her lap--let it be taught in schools, in seminaries, and in colleges; let it be written in Primers, spelling books, and in Almanacs;--let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. And, in short, let it become the political religion of the nation; and let the old and the young, the rich and the poor, the grave and the gay, of all sexes and tongues, and colors and conditions, sacrifice unceasingly upon its altars.


    Lincoln was, in short, a statesman who was guided by the principles of our Founding, and therefore he is a model of conservative leadership today. He believed in natural rights, not the expansive definition of positive rights, without any grounding in nature, advanced by today’s Left. He believed in equality before the law, but he also noted that the Declaration of Independence “does not declare that all men are equal in their attainments or social position.” He respected and followed the text of the Constitution, rather than interpreting it as a “living” and evolving document or simply scrapping it altogether.

    He believed in economic freedom, particularly the opportunity to work for a wage. He did not think that the market economy took advantage of those who worked for wages, but rather believed that economic freedom was a ticket to upward mobility for the individual and prosperity for society. He was fond of saying that, in a country with economic freedom, those who begin “poor, as most do in the race of life, free society is such that he knows he can better his condition.” In a free society, a citizen can “look forward and hope to be a hired laborer this year and the next, work for himself afterward, and finally to hire men to work for him! That is the true system.”

    Bottom line (Lincoln on the Republican Party core values):
    Looking at these things, the Republican party, as I understand its principles and policy, believe that there is great danger of the institution of slavery being spread out and extended, until it is ultimately made alike lawful in all the States of this union; so believing, to prevent that incidental and ultimate consummation, is the original and chief purpose of the Republican organization. I say ‘chief purpose’ of the Republican organization; for it is certainly true that if the national House shall fall into the hands of the Republicans, they will have to attend to all the others matters of national house-keeping, as well as this. This chief and real purpose of the Republican party is eminently conservative. It proposes nothing save and except to restore this government to its original tone in regard to this element of slavery, and there to maintain it, looking for no further change, in reference to it, than that which the original framers of the government themselves expected and looked forward to.

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