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Thread: USMC Veteran Faces Deportation

  1. #81
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    Re: USMC Veteran Faces Deportation

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    He didn't fraudulently enlist in the military. Not sure why you feel the need to lie about that to defend deporting a guy who served the country and was badly injured doing it..
    I was speaking of Sabal.

    "Sabal told the San Diego Union Tribune that he used fake documents to join the Marines but did confess his immigration status during boot camp and was told "Don’t worry about it. You’re a Marine now."
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    Re: USMC Veteran Faces Deportation

    Quote Originally Posted by Fledermaus View Post
    I was speaking of Sabal.

    "Sabal told the San Diego Union Tribune that he used fake documents to join the Marines but did confess his immigration status during boot camp and was told "Don’t worry about it. You’re a Marine now."
    So you're still lying or are ignorant of the facts. I don't get why you insist on falsely maligning people who served this country in the military. You seem determined to give them NO benefit of the doubt just because they are immigrants.

    CBP denies Marine Corps veteran entry for citizenship interview - The San Diego Union-Tribune

    Sabal first applied to become a U.S. citizen in 1995 after serving for six years as a Marine and then several more years in the Army Reserves. Sabal has two U.S. citizen children with a U.S. citizen partner whom he hopes to one day marry.
    You said he, "No... Some of us don't support a SINGLE VIOLENT FELON WHO FRAUDULENTLY ENLISTED INTO THE MILITARY AND SHOWED ZERO EFFORT TO BECOME A NATURALIZED CITIZEN...."

    He first applied in 1995, and was at the border asking permission to attend a hearing to get citizenship. So either you don't care about the facts or ignored them and lied about them.

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    Re: USMC Veteran Faces Deportation

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    So you're still lying or are ignorant of the facts. I don't get why you insist on falsely maligning people who served this country in the military. You seem determined to give them NO benefit of the doubt just because they are immigrants.

    CBP denies Marine Corps veteran entry for citizenship interview - The San Diego Union-Tribune



    You said he, "No... Some of us don't support a SINGLE VIOLENT FELON WHO FRAUDULENTLY ENLISTED INTO THE MILITARY AND SHOWED ZERO EFFORT TO BECOME A NATURALIZED CITIZEN...."

    He first applied in 1995, and was at the border asking permission to attend a hearing to get citizenship. So either you don't care about the facts or ignored them and lied about them.
    I stand corrected on not trying for naturalization.

    I had conflated two different articles.
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    Re: USMC Veteran Faces Deportation

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    He didn't fraudulently enlist in the military. Not sure why you feel the need to lie about that to defend deporting a guy who served the country and was badly injured doing it.
    Part of the problem is that there have been 2 people discussed in this thread. And that has led to some confusion I have seen.

    The first one, the OP is about somebody who was a legal resident alien. But after leaving the military he committed several felonies, primarily drug related and violent. His residency was of course revoked, and he is in the process of being deported.

    Then you have the second one, the one who fraudulently claimed a status he did not have. He left the country, and was denied re-entry.

    Myself, I do not care. Either way, they had the chance in uniform to become a citizen, and never did it. Nor did they do it after they got out.

    If they give that little care about their status, then do not expect me to care about their status.

    And I have also worked with homeless veterans. I have been one myself. However, the vast majority who are chronically homeless also have addiction issues, generally drugs. Which then leads of course to mental health issues. Nobody made them pick up a crack pipe, or slam a needle into their arms. Once again, that was a decision that they themselves made.

    And no, the freaking wars do not have a damned thing to do with it. Most of those individuals have never deployed. In fact, if you look at the ages most served in the 1980's and 1990's.

    You are simply giving the same old talking points, repeating the same old lies about "PTSD Veterans", and to be honest, I am freaking sick and tired of the cliché and stereotype. In fact, Iraq-Afghanistan vets are among the lowest percentage of homeless vets out there.

    PTSD has long been a whipping boy for the anti-military crowd. This largely started after Vietnam, and has been popularized by movies like Rambo. But it is largely a faction, and one that most of us rather resent. And this ties hand in hand with the majority of "Homeless Vet" statistics. The fact is, most studies simply ask if the homeless individual is a vet, but do not require any proof that they actually are.

    I have taken part in many Veteran Stand-Downs", both in the LA and the SF area. And one thing we all know, is that most of those who claim to be "Homeless Vets" are lying. Go into one of these (almost always sponsored by the VA), and you see an amazing thing. The number of "Vets" who finish the 2-4 day event is tiny compared to the number that are there to start. That is because in the day of instant record verification the liars and fakes are quickly weeded out and shown to the door.

    And there are a ton of programs available for the real homeless vets. But here is the kicker, they all require that the vet be clean and sober in order to qualify. And guess what? Most to not want to stop using their drugs, it is more important to them than having a job and a roof over their heads.

    So once again, I do not care. I will give them the shirt off my back, but they have to be willing to do their part first.

    You see, that is the difference between really caring for those in that situation, and those who only pay it lip service and only want to make themselves look good.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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    Re: USMC Veteran Faces Deportation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    And I have also worked with homeless veterans. I have been one myself. However, the vast majority who are chronically homeless also have addiction issues, generally drugs. Which then leads of course to mental health issues. Nobody made them pick up a crack pipe, or slam a needle into their arms. Once again, that was a decision that they themselves made.
    I frankly don't believe you've worked with homeless veterans if you think the cause and effect runs that way. The mental illness, PTSD in particular but lots of the homeless suffer from any other mental illness you can think of, drives the drug use, not the reverse. If you'd worked with them, you'd know this. They turn to drugs because their mental illness wasn't addressed adequately if at all, and drugs are the escape, the self-treatment. It's impossible to have worked with them and not know this.

    Drug use leads to drug addiction. Drug use does NOT cause mental illness. That's completely wrong. And the problem is the guys we see, anywhere from 70% to over 90% depending on the time period are dual diagnosis - mentally ill and addicted. They run together, for the reasons I said above. And if you expect them to get clean/sober without addressing the mental illness at the same time, you will fail, the odds run right at about 0% for successfully getting them back on their feet.

    And no, the freaking wars do not have a damned thing to do with it. Most of those individuals have never deployed. In fact, if you look at the ages most served in the 1980's and 1990's.
    I don't think you're being honest or just don't know what you are talking about. Most of what individuals? How did you determine this? The person in the OP did, and so have many that show up at our facilities. Used to be the veterans were mostly Vietnam era, now we're seeing young people, in their 30s and 40s.

    PTSD has long been a whipping boy for the anti-military crowd. This largely started after Vietnam, and has been popularized by movies like Rambo. But it is largely a faction, and one that most of us rather resent. And this ties hand in hand with the majority of "Homeless Vet" statistics. The fact is, most studies simply ask if the homeless individual is a vet, but do not require any proof that they actually are.
    Our facility knows this because veterans have VA benefits, and it's how we can get them drugs to treat mental illness and their physical ailments, and the homeless veterans nearly always have both. The VA pays their bills. If you have any evidence for those claims, present them. They look made up to me, baseless.

    I have taken part in many Veteran Stand-Downs", both in the LA and the SF area.

    ...

    And there are a ton of programs available for the real homeless vets. But here is the kicker, they all require that the vet be clean and sober in order to qualify. And guess what? Most to not want to stop using their drugs, it is more important to them than having a job and a roof over their heads.

    So once again, I do not care. I will give them the shirt off my back, but they have to be willing to do their part first.

    You see, that is the difference between really caring for those in that situation, and those who only pay it lip service and only want to make themselves look good.
    Yeah, I've had enough of your ****. The charity I've been involved in for 10 years or so has 100-125 veterans in the program at any one time. They get mental health treatment, if they can work they have to find a job. They cook, clean their rooms, go to therapy and meetings, and stay clean and it works and there's a long waiting list to get in. So you can take that "really caring" crap and shove it. They DO THEIR PART, they stay clean. If they fall off they leave, but can come back. Takes 5, 6 times for many of them, and those who make it stay 6 months or so at least, some a year or two. That's what it takes

    And I don't know where you live but HERE there aren't a "ton of programs" that aren't flop houses and other basically scams that bleed the VA and don't do **** for the veterans. The nearest VA is 100 miles from here. All we have here are clinics and god help those who need real mental health care and don't have something like a charity like ours to get them to the VA and get them what they need. So you're either lying or ignorant.

  6. #86
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    Re: USMC Veteran Faces Deportation

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I frankly don't believe you've worked with homeless veterans if you think the cause and effect runs that way. The mental illness, PTSD in particular but lots of the homeless suffer from any other mental illness you can think of, drives the drug use, not the reverse. If you'd worked with them, you'd know this. They turn to drugs because their mental illness wasn't addressed adequately if at all, and drugs are the escape, the self-treatment. It's impossible to have worked with them and not know this.
    Ahhh, got it. You screamed that I hate Veterans. Yet in reality you are the one that hates them. With the exception I guess of those that happen to agree with you.

    If somebody does not agree with you, you call them liars and dismiss anything that they say.

    Well, I have never made it a secret that I have been homeless in here. And I have spent over a decade both promoting the organization that got me off the street, but one that I still support to this day.

    U.S.VETS | United States Veterans Initiative – United States Veterans Initiative

    I lived in their Inglewood facility for over a year (back when that was the only facility they had - they are now nationwide). And spent a lot of time while I was there helping in outreach to try and get help to other veterans.

    And I have participated in every East Bay Stand Down for the last 3 years (and a few before that - I did not participate in ESD 2016 I was on another mission that year). My unit is a medical unit, and is an integral part of this operation.

    East Bay Stand Down

    Sorry, this is done. All you have been doing is dismissing everything I say, and actually saying I am lying. Screaming that I hate veterans, when I am one myself. You are presenting nothing of use to this discussion, simply attacking those who do not agree with you, even though you do not know us. And I am not the only one you have done this with, I have also noticed how you have treated other veterans in this discussion.

    And the very fact you are trying to actually claim that chemical dependence does not cause mental health issues flies in the face of all real research into the subject. Hell, simply looking at the statistics make this obvious.

    Of those with mental illness, only 29% have substance abuse problems. But of those with substance abuse problems, a whopping 53% have at least one (or more) mental health issues. Hell, even the NIMH recognizes the connection.

    Chronic use of some drugs can lead to both short- and long-term changes in the brain, which can lead to mental health issues including paranoia, depression, anxiety, aggression, hallucinations, and other problems.

    Many people who are addicted to drugs are also diagnosed with other mental disorders and vice versa. Compared with the general population, people addicted to drugs are roughly twice as likely to suffer from mood and anxiety disorders, with the reverse also true.
    Mental Health Effects | National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA)

    Have a good day. I see no point in continuing a discussion with somebody that has a completely closed mind, that accuses others of being untruthful, and denies even basic facts recognized by the mental health community.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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    Re: USMC Veteran Faces Deportation

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Why have laws if they are not to be enforced? This is not a cute kid or a "dreamer", this is a violent convicetd felon - criminal actions have consequences. His past, present and future victims have families too.
    He was brought here when he was 3, so you cannot claim that he was some type of gang recruit before coming to America.

    He served America in war, was wounded with an injury known to cause behavioral changes on top of the PTSD. Like many Americans who serve and have similar experiences, his injuries and PTSD probably led him to crime and violence. What also didn't help was that fact that America let him and other veterans down on their care.

    The law was enforced on him: he paid for it with prison. He did his time for his crimes.

    He has paid for the victims of the past. However, you are assuming that he will continue the violence....simply because he is technically not an American citizen and for no other reason. But that isn't the reason why if he does, either here or wherever he is deported to....just like the American servicemen and women who suffer from similar afflictions...people like you won't take this Congress or President or past Congress and Presidents to task for taking care of those who fight for us. With no care, yeah, this might happen again.

    Or people like you can hope it will work itself out by having veterans like this man put a pistol in his mouth and blow out the back of head in despair because his country and/or the people he had fought for, didn't care enough. Just like my little cousin did.

  8. #88
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    Re: USMC Veteran Faces Deportation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Warfield View Post
    He was brought here when he was 3, so you cannot claim that he was some type of gang recruit before coming to America.

    He served America in war, was wounded with an injury known to cause behavioral changes on top of the PTSD. Like many Americans who serve and have similar experiences, his injuries and PTSD probably led him to crime and violence. What also didn't help was that fact that America let him and other veterans down on their care.
    I do not care when he was brought here. If he was 3, or if he was 19. I do not even care if he came here legally.

    What I do care about is what he did during and after his service.

    He had many chances to switch from Resident Alien to US Citizen. INS even fast-tracks those in uniform, and waives all fees. So there is no excuse for his not doing so, other than he did not bother or did not want to become a citizen. Fair enough, that was his choice. His choice.

    And the vast majority of those who have PTSD do not break the law. That is no more true than those who get a TBI from a traffic accident suddenly go on crime sprees. That is a lame, worn out old stereotype that has been used as a whipping post by Anti-military Liberals for decades now. It is not true, but movies like Rambo continue to feed into that narrative.

    What led him to becoming a criminal was himself, and nobody and nothing else. He made the choice to break the law, several times.

    And yes, he paid for what he has done, by going to jail. And because of that, his residency has been revoked and he is being sent home.

    He could have become a citizen. He could have not turned to crime. He could have avoided beating his partner. That is what 99% of Resident Aliens Veterans do.

    A decade after my deployment, the VA is only now finally diagnosing my PTSD. Yet in that decade, I have not turned to drugs or beating my spouse.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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