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Thread: US Airpower

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    Re: US Airpower

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Yeah, this confirms my thoughts that manned aircraft and its projective power is in decline.
    Projective power is not in decline though, and force projection takes many forms, for exaple the us prefers sea and air over ground force projection, while russia prefers ground and air force projection over sea, and china is kinda in the crossroads where they are not quite sure but given time they will figure out how they wish to use their military.


    Manned aircraft are quite valuable fyi, drones can not replace them except for certain taks, and against a state actor drones can easily be jammed. Much of the push for drones is not because they are some super new tech, we actually were using them right after ww2 in testing, but rather that pilots are harder to obtain then aircraft. In ww2 you could quickly train a bunch of soldiers to fly piston pounders, they were simple in every respect, now you have sophisticated jet fighters, with sophisticated firing systems and tactics, this requires pilots to be more physically capable than ever to handle the gforce, and trained much longer as well for these new systems, which makes pilots in demand but short supply, anywhere drones can be used means we can keep pilots safe friom harm as well as recruit new ones who wish to fly without being in harms way.


    However drones would fail quickly in a war against a sophisticated state actor unless they could act by ai alone and not need input which could be jammed.
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  2. #12
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    Re: US Airpower

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    Projective power is not in decline though, and force projection takes many forms, for exaple the us prefers sea and air over ground force projection, while russia prefers ground and air force projection over sea, and china is kinda in the crossroads where they are not quite sure but given time they will figure out how they wish to use their military.


    Manned aircraft are quite valuable fyi, drones can not replace them except for certain taks, and against a state actor drones can easily be jammed. Much of the push for drones is not because they are some super new tech, we actually were using them right after ww2 in testing, but rather that pilots are harder to obtain then aircraft. In ww2 you could quickly train a bunch of soldiers to fly piston pounders, they were simple in every respect, now you have sophisticated jet fighters, with sophisticated firing systems and tactics, this requires pilots to be more physically capable than ever to handle the gforce, and trained much longer as well for these new systems, which makes pilots in demand but short supply, anywhere drones can be used means we can keep pilots safe friom harm as well as recruit new ones who wish to fly without being in harms way.


    However drones would fail quickly in a war against a sophisticated state actor unless they could act by ai alone and not need input which could be jammed.
    RPV's need pilots. Full drones do not. You just tell them what to do and they go do it. The jamming effect would be similar to manned aircraft. They would be able to continue their mission. Full on drones with real usable combat capability for the US has been around at least since the 90's with Boeings X-47 series of drones which were designed to be autonomous and engage specified targets independently.
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    Re: US Airpower

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    RPV's need pilots. Full drones do not. You just tell them what to do and they go do it. The jamming effect would be similar to manned aircraft. They would be able to continue their mission. Full on drones with real usable combat capability for the US has been around at least since the 90's with Boeings X-47 series of drones which were designed to be autonomous and engage specified targets independently.
    Yeah you keep bringing up those drones yet no branch has really adopted a full ai drone for anything but extremely few missions, which tells me the idea is not as grand as you make it sound.

    Full ai drones can move on but we do not seem to being having such used except surveilance drones.
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    Re: US Airpower

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    Yeah you keep bringing up those drones yet no branch has really adopted a full ai drone for anything but extremely few missions, which tells me the idea is not as grand as you make it sound.

    Full ai drones can move on but we do not seem to being having such used except surveilance drones.
    If you were a pilot would you want to be replaced by a machine? Here's the other thing, there has never been a public match up between a drone UCAV and a piloted machine RPV or otherwise. Nobody has really put these things through the paces since the 90's when Boeing was doing it. The thing about unmanned craft of any type is you can test them to destruction in real world conditions doing literally everything you would want to throw at them in testing. I have yet to see anything remotely similar. You cant do that type of testing with a manned vehicle.
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    Re: US Airpower

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    If you were a pilot would you want to be replaced by a machine? Here's the other thing, there has never been a public match up between a drone UCAV and a piloted machine RPV or otherwise. Nobody has really put these things through the paces since the 90's when Boeing was doing it. The thing about unmanned craft of any type is you can test them to destruction in real world conditions doing literally everything you would want to throw at them in testing. I have yet to see anything remotely similar. You cant do that type of testing with a manned vehicle.
    I do not think pilots are what keep fully autonomous drones from being adopted, my belief is it is the lack of versatility. Yes they can be programmed to move to points for intel or to attack, but having a full ai capable of human response time and variables will require such massive programming that ai will likely never be used for such systems as the sole control for a very long time.

    The human brain can actually perform more than a supercomputer, and even if someone came up with hundreds or even hundreds of thousands of terabytes of code to mimic perfectly the versatility of the human brain, there would be a need for a system that can access and process that data in a rapid manner which we are far from. Yes systems can use ai and guidance like terrain and starlight, however even with ai they are a far cry away from replacing human pilots, which is likely why autonomous drones have not seen any adoption other than a few niche tasks.
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    Re: US Airpower

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    If you were a pilot would you want to be replaced by a machine? Here's the other thing, there has never been a public match up between a drone UCAV and a piloted machine RPV or otherwise. Nobody has really put these things through the paces since the 90's when Boeing was doing it. The thing about unmanned craft of any type is you can test them to destruction in real world conditions doing literally everything you would want to throw at them in testing. I have yet to see anything remotely similar. You cant do that type of testing with a manned vehicle.
    Such aircraft are of a very limited use at best, almost completely worthless most of the time.

    Quick scenario. I am part of an Infantry Battalion, holding a position along a peak and down a ridgeline. Enemies are situated at the bottom of the slope moving in to my position, but also infiltrating up both sides of a ridge towards one of my companies I have positioned for overwatch. And on the reverse slope is a small village of neutral civilians that we have been put in place to defend from enemy forces.

    Now exactly what good is an unmanned drone going to do there? I can tell you, absolutely none. Because nobody in their right mind is going to trust a flying calculator with putting ordinance anywhere close to where friendlies are located. A human pilot can assemble both digital and conversational instructions, either relayed from controllers on the ground, airborne observers, and even by talking directly with the forces on the ground. A flying calculator with missiles can not do that.

    If a pilot is making their approach and recognize that among the bad guys he was about to strike is a platoon of friendlies, he can make the snap decision to stop the attack and pull back. An autonomous drone can not do that.

    We can keep telling you this over and over, but you do not seem to get it. Nobody in the US military trusts the damned things. We are nowhere close to the point where they can ever be used, short of in some kind of bizzaro world "everything is a target" free-fire kind of zone, the likes of which we really have not seen since WWII. Friendly Fire is simply to big of a deal, and hitting neutral (or even hostile) non-combatants is a war crime that nobody wants to even look like they are touching.

    Because I can guarantee, that is going to happen. Fighting some Grand Fenwickians in Myopia, and our drone for some reason pegs that a Myopian village is hostile and blowing the crap out of it. Killing all 120 people in an Ashram. That is just the kind of thing that the UNSC would go nuts over and throw more Resolutions than you can shake a stick at. Not to mention the obviously follow-up, of the demand of a war crimes tribunal.
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    Re: US Airpower

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    RPV's need pilots. Full drones do not. You just tell them what to do and they go do it. The jamming effect would be similar to manned aircraft. They would be able to continue their mission. Full on drones with real usable combat capability for the US has been around at least since the 90's with Boeings X-47 series of drones which were designed to be autonomous and engage specified targets independently.
    You mean UAV - the military doesn't use drones anymore.

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