• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Navy seal medic admitts in court to murdering teen ISIS member

SF has seen much darker days. Their image always has and will continue to improve. People are held accountable like never before, even if a particular trial becomes a circus.
 
I said it once, and I'll say it again: The Navy SEALS are the biggest dirtbags in the SOF community. It isn't a big, it's a feature. The SEALs regularly commit war crimes, brag about committing war crimes, and encourage each other not to report war crimes to command. They have killed, and I have no doubt will continue to kill other members of the SOF community.

Out of the entire SOF community, the SEALs are infamous for making their training and status a "brand." They turned the honor of wearing the trident into a potential book deal and bogus exercise equipment and/or program.
 
CMPancake said:
I said it once, and I'll say it again: The Navy SEALS are the biggest dirtbags in the SOF community. It isn't a big, it's a feature. The SEALs regularly commit war crimes, brag about committing war crimes, and encourage each other not to report war crimes to command. They have killed, and I have no doubt will continue to kill other members of the SOF community.

Out of the entire SOF community, the SEALs are infamous for making their training and status a "brand." They turned the honor of wearing the trident into a potential book deal and bogus exercise equipment and/or program.
Click to expand...

Their response to the MSgt Chapman situation was absolutely disgusting. They aren't earning themselves any friends.
 
ecofarm said:
SF has seen much darker days. Their image always has and will continue to improve. People are held accountable like never before, even if a particular trial becomes a circus.
Click to expand...

Back in the mid-90's the Canadian equivalent of the SAS, the Canadian Airborne Regiment, was disbanded after a disgraceful affair including the beating death under interrogation of a Somali man. Now the Canadian special forces unit, JTF-2, is so secret that President Bush was giving them a Presidential Unit Citation at a time when the Canadian government was still not acknowledging that they were in Afghanistan.
 
Grand Mal said:
Back in the mid-90's the Canadian equivalent of the SAS, the Canadian Airborne Regiment, was disbanded after a disgraceful affair including the beating death under interrogation of a Somali man. Now the Canadian special forces unit, JTF-2, is so secret that President Bush was giving them a Presidential Unit Citation at a time when the Canadian government was still not acknowledging that they were in Afghanistan.
Click to expand...

Is JTF2 a regiment of infanty? That's hundreds of riflemen. Something like 2000?
 
Last edited:
CMPancake said:
I said it once, and I'll say it again: The Navy SEALS are the biggest dirtbags in the SOF community. It isn't a big, it's a feature. The SEALs regularly commit war crimes, brag about committing war crimes, and encourage each other not to report war crimes to command. They have killed, and I have no doubt will continue to kill other members of the SOF community.

Out of the entire SOF community, the SEALs are infamous for making their training and status a "brand." They turned the honor of wearing the trident into a potential book deal and bogus exercise equipment and/or program.
Click to expand...

SOF? Was that a Freudian slip? Didn't used to do the 'sacre mercenaire', did you?
 
ecofarm said:
Is JTF2 a regiment of infanty? That's hundreds of riflemen.
Click to expand...

No, not a regiment. Far as I know. I'm not sure if we can even find out how large they are.
I can't cut-and-paste on this device but Wikipedia has a good blurb on them.
 
Grand Mal said:
No, not a regiment. Far as I know. I'm not sure if we can even find out how large they are.
I can't cut-and-paste on this device but Wikipedia has a good blurb on them.
Click to expand...

Any atrocity is horrible, but 2 or 3 thousand riflemen is not SF.
 
I’m not bashing the military, that being said, I flew from San Diego to BWI many years ago. I tend to sit in the rear of the plane, not like you get there faster in the front. The two seats in front of me were occupied by two self described Seals. As they tried to drink the plane’s supply of beer up, their conduct deteriorated. As I exited, I commented, “ I thought you guys were better than this.”

Old joke: How can you identify a Seal in a bar? Just wait, he’ll tell you.
 
Grand Mal said:
No, not a regiment. Far as I know. I'm not sure if we can even find out how large they are.
I can't cut-and-paste on this device but Wikipedia has a good blurb on them.
Click to expand...

Grand Mal:

JTF-2 (Joint Task Force -2) consists of both civilian (police, intelligence and security personnel) and military (army, navy and airforce personnel) and now numbers between 400-600 personnel by most estimates. However many of those are performing support roles rather than combat roles so the number of SOF operators at the sharp end of the spear is likely between 150 and 200 hundred personnel. Their role and operations are closely guarded secrets; so secret that not even open court martials are allowed if JTF-2 personnel break the rules, because military regulations require the public naming and charging of the persons to be prosecuted. One can assume there is some kind of in-camera process for prosecuting those in breach of military or Canadian Law but there is no overt evidence in the public domain that such prosecutions have occurred that I am aware of.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
ecofarm said:
Any atrocity is horrible, but 2 or 3 thousand riflemen is not SF.
Click to expand...

It- the CAR- wasn't a regiment in the usual sense. From the Wikipedia article...
"The Canadian Airborne Regiment (French: Régiment aéroporté canadien) was a Canadian Forces formation created on April 8, 1968. It was not an administrative regiment in the commonly accepted British Commonwealth sense, but rather a tactical formation manned from other regiments and branches. It was disbanded in 1995 after the Somalia Affair."

That was then, 1995. They don't exist anymore.
The British SAS are called a regiment. I don't know what their strength is but I bet you'd call them Special Forces.
 
jdog21 said:
Another SEAL testifies that he was the one who killed ISIS fighter - CNN
This is sure to have an impact on our special forces communitys image.
Click to expand...

Maxine told her dirty followers to search out republicans in restaurants and other public places and to get in their faces with the most hateful disrespect they can muster, because that is what the heathen do who do not know and obey God. Our armed forces are made up with an assortment of good and bad people and it is not right for our soldiers to give a violent ISIS murderer what is coming to him, but some just cannot help it. They grieve over things like girl slaves' heads piled in a school for foreign fighters to find after ISIS has been driven out. Humans can take only so much. We need to try harder to keep our troops from getting emotional about the atrocities of enemy fighters they are forced to deal with.
 
Evilroddy said:
Grand Mal:

JTF-2 (Joint Task Force -2) consists of both civilian (police, intelligence and security personnel) and military (army, navy and airforce personnel) and now numbers between 400-600 personnel by most estimates. However many of those are performing support roles rather than combat roles so the number of SOF operators at the sharp end of the spear is likely between 150 and 200 hundred personnel. Their role and operations are closely guarded secrets; so secret that not even open court martials are allowed if JTF-2 personnel break the rules, because military regulations require the public naming and charging of the persons to be prosecuted. One can assume there is some kind of in-camera process for prosecuting those in breach of military or Canadian Law but there is no overt evidence in the public domain that such prosecutions have occurred that I am aware of.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Thanks.
A couple years ago I read somewhere that one of those guys had disappeared, an explosives specialist. I don't remember any details but the fear was he was a free agent on the terrorist market. I never heard what the upshot was but I never looked for it either and I wouldn't be likely to find out anyway.
 
Grand Mal said:
It- the CAR- wasn't a regiment in the usual sense. From the Wikipedia article...
"The Canadian Airborne Regiment (French: Régiment aéroporté canadien) was a Canadian Forces formation created on April 8, 1968. It was not an administrative regiment in the commonly accepted British Commonwealth sense, but rather a tactical formation manned from other regiments and branches. It was disbanded in 1995 after the Somalia Affair."

That was then, 1995. They don't exist anymore.
The British SAS are called a regiment. I don't know what their strength is but I bet you'd call them Special Forces.
Click to expand...

Rangers are a regiment. Not generally considered SF.

My point was that a force of 2000 (even if only some were deployed) men having a crime committed among them is not the same as 20. A smaller percentage of individual men are responsible. The smaller force provides greater internal responsibility for any crime. If the Canadian force was of such a size, most of the men probably had no idea a crime was committed. In a team or group, everyone knows everything that happens.

Crimes will happen. There is no putting an end to them. The importing thing is that we hold our own accountable.

I get that accountable is where your objection to covert comes in, but Seals just had a rather public trial. Some trials can't be public.
 
CMPancake said:
I said it once, and I'll say it again: The Navy SEALS are the biggest dirtbags in the SOF community. It isn't a big, it's a feature. The SEALs regularly commit war crimes, brag about committing war crimes, and encourage each other not to report war crimes to command. They have killed, and I have no doubt will continue to kill other members of the SOF community.

Out of the entire SOF community, the SEALs are infamous for making their training and status a "brand." They turned the honor of wearing the trident into a potential book deal and bogus exercise equipment and/or program.
Click to expand...

I never understand why people expect human beings to be psychologically immune to the effects of being hired to do a job like the Seals do. They're elite killers. That's the job they've been trained and tasked with accomplishing. We send them out to fight ISIS, a group with absolutely no moral code- they rape women, murder children, use drugs, practice religious based executions, film themselves lighting caged humans on fire.... What outcome do we expect here, that Navy Seals should be immune to the psychological toll of fighting the worst sub-humans on earth? It's unrealistic. How many tours did Gallagher embark on before going psycho?
 
truthatallcost said:
I never understand why people expect human beings to be psychologically immune to the effects of being hired to do a job like the Seals do.
Click to expand...

Because we have standards and laws to uphold.
 
Grand Mal said:
Back in the mid-90's the Canadian equivalent of the SAS, the Canadian Airborne Regiment, was disbanded after a disgraceful affair including the beating death under interrogation of a Somali man. Now the Canadian special forces unit, JTF-2, is so secret that President Bush was giving them a Presidential Unit Citation at a time when the Canadian government was still not acknowledging that they were in Afghanistan.
Click to expand...

Hmm, interesting. I'm featuring a lot of spec ops soldiers in my latest books and I chose CSOR to represent the Canucks, so to speak. It's weird that I completely overlooked JTF2 in my research. Thanks for the heads up. :mrgreen:
 
CMPancake said:
I said it once, and I'll say it again: The Navy SEALS are the biggest dirtbags in the SOF community. It isn't a big, it's a feature. The SEALs regularly commit war crimes, brag about committing war crimes, and encourage each other not to report war crimes to command. They have killed, and I have no doubt will continue to kill other members of the SOF community.

Out of the entire SOF community, the SEALs are infamous for making their training and status a "brand." They turned the honor of wearing the trident into a potential book deal and bogus exercise equipment and/or program.
Click to expand...

I wonder if the attitude you describe is somehow connected to the old "Tail Hook" naval fraternity scandal years ago?

Sending young troops off to illegitimate wars, wars brought under fraud, is bound to have some bad long term effects as we enter year 19 of the bull**** war on terror.
 
ecofarm said:
Rangers are a regiment. Not generally considered SF.

My point was that a force of 2000 (even if only some were deployed) men having a crime committed among them is not the same as 20. A smaller percentage of individual men are responsible. The smaller force provides greater internal responsibility for any crime. If the Canadian force was of such a size, most of the men probably had no idea a crime was committed. In a team or group, everyone knows everything that happens.

Crimes will happen. There is no putting an end to them. The importing thing is that we hold our own accountable.

I get that accountable is where your objection to covert comes in, but Seals just had a rather public trial. Some trials can't be public.
Click to expand...

I haven't voiced an objection to anything here, just mentioned how the Canadian government responded to a wartime atrocity. Personally, I'd say disbanding the CAR was an overreaction but there were other things going on at the time. I can't remember if the personnel involved were charged or not.
 
Grand Mal said:
I haven't voiced an objection to anything here, just mentioned how the Canadian government responded to a wartime atrocity. Personally, I'd say disbanding the CAR was an overreaction but there were other things going on at the time. I can't remember if the personnel involved were charged or not.
Click to expand...

I hope they were. It's a lot more important to prosecute criminals than disband units or change their name.
 
truthatallcost said:
I never understand why people expect human beings to be psychologically immune to the effects of being hired to do a job like the Seals do. They're elite killers. That's the job they've been trained and tasked with accomplishing. We send them out to fight ISIS, a group with absolutely no moral code- they rape women, murder children, use drugs, practice religious based executions, film themselves lighting caged humans on fire.... What outcome do we expect here, that Navy Seals should be immune to the psychological toll of fighting the worst sub-humans on earth? It's unrealistic. How many tours did Gallagher embark on before going psycho?
Click to expand...

You can be an operator without devolving into murdering civilians and ultimately assisting in the radicalization of the native population.
 
CMPancake said:
You can be an operator without devolving into murdering civilians and ultimately assisting in the radicalization of the native population.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, and most are. But every so often, one of our own goes rogue, and becomes completely psychotic. Maybe that should be studied, and we should consider whether or not we're asking too much of our men by having them deploy dozens of times to a war zone that most Americans forgot about years ago.
 
truthatallcost said:
Absolutely, and most are.
Click to expand...

Most don't get caught. The SEALs in particular have a deeply systematic, toxic culture that dissuades from reporting war crimes.

truthatallcost said:
But every so often, one of our own goes rogue, and becomes completely psychotic.
Click to expand...

It's a feature, not a bug.

truthatallcost said:
Maybe that should be studied, and we should consider whether or not we're asking too much of our men by having them deploy dozens of times to a war zone that most Americans forgot about years ago.
Click to expand...

Or hear me out, the SEALs get rid of the culture that encourages a belief that a trident on their Dress Whites makes them above international law. Are deployments to combat zones stressful? Absolutely. Are they even more stressful for SOF groups like SF, SEALs, or MARSOC? Absolutely. However, they still need to hold themselves accountable for their actions. At the end of the day, groups like the SEALs tackle high-risk operations that are needed to win the war. We cannot win the war if the very same people we train and equip to take on those high-level ops go out of their way to photograph themselves with dead teenage militants, piss on dead bodies, murder fellow operators, and so on.
 
Rexedgar said:
I’m not bashing the military, that being said, I flew from San Diego to BWI many years ago. I tend to sit in the rear of the plane, not like you get there faster in the front. The two seats in front of me were occupied by two self described Seals. As they tried to drink the plane’s supply of beer up, their conduct deteriorated. As I exited, I commented, “ I thought you guys were better than this.”

Old joke: How can you identify a Seal in a bar? Just wait, he’ll tell you.
Click to expand...

I don't possess the same hard feelings as some in this thread, but all special forces troops are spoiled brats and SEALS are the worst.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom