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Thread: The US Military on the cheap. How would you do it?

  1. #161
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    Re: The US Military on the cheap. How would you do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Actually China is believed to have tested the DF21 or DF26 a week or two ago with firing into the South China Sea. Now as to where or not it was tested, or if tested, tested against a moving target has not been reported
    It is not believed to have been targeted at anything other than empty ocean. If this was a US made system, it would be barely past the "proof of concept" phase. Yet the Chinese are claiming it is a full working system.

    Yea, a simple test that the rocket works really shows nothing, the DF-21 series has been in use for decades now. There is a lot more to a complete system that just a rocket.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

  2. #162
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    Re: The US Military on the cheap. How would you do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fledermaus View Post
    Being an officer is not something everyone aspires to.

    Many consider it a downgrade.
    I never had any intention on being an officer. And trust me, I had them.

    When I was in boot camp, I was offered an appointment to the Naval Academy Preparatory School. This is a 1-2 year program that takes candidates that they feel have what it takes to become an officer and prepare them to attend Annapolis. Upon completion the student then moves on to Annapolis and eventually either a Naval or Marine Officer. It was offered to me, I turned it down.

    I was also offered a DCO opening about 8 years ago, and turned that down as well.

    I never had any interest in becoming an officer, never have and never will. Now before I got too old I would have considered getting a Warrant, but I am to old for even that option now.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

  3. #163
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    Re: The US Military on the cheap. How would you do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    I suspect that is easier said than done. In fact I suspect there is more likely hood of the military budget being slashed by 3/4's. You have interesting thoughts on the subject and would prefer to take your route however politics being what it is currently I am quite confident that the Medicare, Social Security et al cuts are NOT coming in the relatively near future.
    It really depends on who is in power at the time. The anti-American left will always do whatever they can to weaken the US, and the pro-American right will always do whatever they can to bolster the strength of the US.

    With regard to the unconstitutional social spending by the federal government, that will eventually take care of itself. Although not in a manner that is preferred. We are currently $22+ trillion in debt, adding more than a trillion each and every year. Interest payments on the National Debt have already exceeded what is spent on Defense. In just a few short years the amount of debt the US will have accumulated will cause a complete collapse of both government and the economy. This is why the founders did not give the federal government any social spending authority. They left that entirely up to the States, who must balance their budgets by law.

    Just to highlight how bad things currently are now, it took us 191 years before the federal government managed to accumulate $1 trillion in debt (1789 to 1980). Now we exceed that debt every 9 months.
    Last edited by Glitch; 07-15-19 at 07:14 PM.

  4. #164
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    Re: The US Military on the cheap. How would you do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Ooze has actually been pretty well-informed, pretty well-reasoned, and pretty reasonable for years, here. For all that I'm surprised that he acted as dismissively as he did (and, you are correct it won him no points) - you are making a snap judgement here which is an inaccurate depiction of him.


    As for your decision to try to match him, but expand it to being ugly and dismissive of NCO's, well, heartily, F*** You I was an NCO with a Masters Degree, and I wasn't even the smartest enlisted guy in my section. I was an 0351 with a Bachelors, and I wasn't even the smartest guy in my fire team. Do people get more ornery when they're old and tired? Often. Is that unique to people who were enlisted? Nope. Are some lifer NCO's there because they don't know what they'd do on the outside, and they're just riding out their 20? Yup. Is that the same pretty much everywhere, including the Officer Corps? Yup. Are some Lifer NCO's freaking brilliant professionals? Yup.

    I've known... one officer who approached NCO's with that level of disdain. He was, shall we say, not all that successful as a leader. Got fired multiple times, got his ass kicked (beaten with a kevlar) once in front of his platoon by a platoon sergeant (who, it is worth noting, was subsequently backed by the Company and then the Battalion chain of command; God bless them), lost his rifle, had multiple negligent discharges.... Probably the only officer I've ever seen who was less of a leader was a guy who literally let a squad leader fire him. Yeah. Usually the most arrogant and disdainful ones were the least competent.
    I dropped out of high-school at age 16, got my GED and started attending college. I had my AA degree by the time my high-school class graduated. I also served 8 years in the Marine Corps after college, 5 of them as an NCO, as 1391 ("Bulkfuelman"). I would have been a lifer, but my last tour was under Carter and after failing to make the Staff list, I got out in May 1980 instead. Had I known Reagan would have been elected in November 1980 I would have stayed in.
    Last edited by Glitch; 07-15-19 at 07:29 PM.

  5. #165
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    Re: The US Military on the cheap. How would you do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    Been there - done that. My first 3 years were at a Marine Barracks. Basically that is a unit of Marine Grunts that does security on Navy Bases. Including the entire Dress Blues at the Main Gate thing. That is no longer a thing, it fell victim to the budget cuts of the 1990's. But at one time every Navy Base had Marines doing the guard duty.

    Back then we used to rotate between Such "B" billets (others were Sea Duty doing security on a ship or Embassy Duty) and actual "Fleet Duty" as part of an Infantry Battalion. Generally 3-4 years of one, then rotate to the other. It is one thing that makes me sad now to see what the Marine Infantry has to go through today. Knowing that if you wanted to try and make it a career, likely your entire time would be spend in an actual Grunt unit. With no break unless you went Recruiting or Drill duty.
    I was spared guard duty after boot camp. I was with the Engineers, and we were typically used as the enemy for the grunts, so we spent a lot of time in the field. Some might call it "training" but it was really only the grunts who were training. We brought trailers full of beer into the field with us. None for the grunts, of course.

  6. #166
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    Re: The US Military on the cheap. How would you do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangmo View Post
    How come you didn't make 2-star general? At the least. You've basically been in long enough, or almost long enough.

    There must be a reason. And plenty of 'em.

    Let's start with the highest degree being, what was it you said, high school diploma. There's another guy with a master's degree who didn't even make lieutenant nevermind colonel or a rank and grade somewhere up there. I mean, and I reiterate, you nco guys -- the lifer ones especially -- are omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. You're the guys who kick the locomotive off the tracks outside the beer hall. The NCO Club especially. That's how you guys write your posts all the time.
    I was specialist 4. Here is a picture of the uniform we wore. I was wearing wool pants and jacket in 115 degree heat in southern Arizona.

    MP uniform.jpgMP uniform.jpg
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  7. #167
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    Re: The US Military on the cheap. How would you do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by PIPEWRENCH View Post
    I was specialist 4. Here is a picture of the uniform we wore. I was wearing wool pants and jacket in 115 degree heat in southern Arizona.

    MP uniform.jpgMP uniform.jpg
    Not cool eh. You the Speedy 4 MP look good and your partner MP the PFC E-3 looks like he just came from a bust.

    By the time I got to Ft. Myer in the steamy Military District of Washington DC in 1966 Army was transitioning uniforms. Summer khakis were being phased out as were the winter greens in favor of year round greens made of radically new synthetics. Washington metro area is notoriously humid with no air movement so the stagnant heat and humidity put what MSM called the "misery index" at 100 degrees. In uni Rotc the previous 4 years we had the standard wool greens and khakis. When we got caught out in rain in the wool greens we smelled like a herd of sheep ha.

    The misery index so called was the rule. So the ceremonial troops of the 3rd Infantry Rgt The Old Guard of the Army took scissors to cut the shirt under the blouse from the pectorals down to help deal with the oppressive climate and temperatures out on the parade field and in other ceremonies. Regiment HQ knew this well but never let on that it knew, which everyone in the rgt knew rgt knew about and let slide ha. Most troops did the slashing of the shirts which remained in place under the blouse by its weight over the shoulders and the pretty tight blouse fitting. Only a few proper officers and nco continued to wear the full shirt. The cut shirt fit so well it was a task to discern whether a major on rgt staff was wearing one or not, for example (usually not ha).

    Then we got the opposite in winter. Third Infantry Rgt being infantry we went into the field during the winter months which was the off tourist season and most civilian and military officials who order up ceremonies and parades also stayed indoors (although Washington winters are mild). Ceremonies, tattoos, parades are slow to non existent in winter. The 7 "line" companies rotated from post to field to post again. During winter there are always a couple of companies in the field doing FTX while there are always a couple of companies at the post to do the military funerals and the small time ceremonies that did occur, such as the arrival at the WH of the leader of France or whichever country...state dinners at WH and Pentagon arrivals of foreign military chiefs etc.

    So we spent our Old Guard summers sweltering in a multiplicity of ceremonies, tattoos, parades, but spent winters in tents with heating stoves and in FTX running around at Ft. A.P. Hill in the central Virginia mountains, to include Ft. Indiantown Gap PA. 3 IR didn't have night vision equipment then so Army sent us out at night on FTX most of the time. We had to use our own and old fashioned night vision of not looking directly at anything and eye scoping off a center point. We couldn't see our hand in front of our face anyway hah hah. The troops grabbed the belt of the grunt in front of 'em and prayed we didn't walk off a cliff cause everyone would go down in a chain...speaking of sheep ha.
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  8. #168
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    Re: The US Military on the cheap. How would you do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    Actually, it is believed that China has a total of 40 DF-21 TELs. That is the actual launcher itself.
    Thanks, I'm aware.

    And because this is also their primary medium range nuclear missile and ballistic platform, it would be hard to imagine them having any more than say 15 at a time configured to launching the DF-21D.
    Because......

    OK, so suppose they actually launch 15 of these at once at our carriers. Want to know what the response likely would be at best, and the nightmare at worst?

    "Holy crap, 15 inbound nuclear missiles! Launch all aircraft and attack the launch sites! Maybe we can take them down with us!"

    Or then nightmare case:

    "Holy crap, 15 inbound nuclear missiles! Launch out standby Strategic bird and have them drop a B61 nuclear bomb on their heads!"
    And, of course, no matter what response they choose, to launch, we likely lose those carriers - a massive blow to US strategic capability to project force.

    Will that be the reaction, though? I'm fairly certain the 7th Fleet is aware of the multiple roles of the DF-21 series.

    Far more likely, in reality, is that our super-duper-giant super-expensive single-point-of-failure Carriers will be kept safely out of range, not rendering them quite useless, but certainly stripping their ability to direct events.

    Which, is why, as I said, IMO, we need to invest in more fungible platforms, such as Amphibs, to take the place of the Super Carriers over time. The 7th Fleet can risk 5/15 much easier than it can risk 1/3, and those 5 can be more useful.

    This is one of the biggest reasons why these things scare the crap out of me. Both the US and Soviets-Russia were smart enough decades ago to separate their conventional weapons from their nuclear ones so things like that would not happen in case the 2 countries ever got into a conflict. And then China goes and does it themselves.

    I do not believe it will work, they themselves have yet to even try it other than launching it at a static target on land.

    Now one thing about watching China, they talk the crap out of things. But when they do a single test that is not even close to real world then say it is "active", that should mean that it is a piece of junk and all for show. The only way this thing would work is if they were using nukes on it.
    I don't disagree that the Chinese like to do their testing in the desert, under isolated conditions, where enemy collection is more difficult (as do we), and that this means they've collected less information on their own MOP's than they'd want. That, however, does not translate to "The only way this thing would work is if it was using nukes". That is manifestly not the case, which is why Naval and Air Force planners, procurement offices, and intel folks spend so much time and money figuring out how to defeat a non-nuclear Chinese A2AD capability.

    But, after that, I will allow you the last word.

  9. #169
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    Re: The US Military on the cheap. How would you do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangmo View Post
    Not cool eh. You the Speedy 4 MP look good and your partner MP the PFC E-3 looks like he just came from a bust.

    By the time I got to Ft. Myer in the steamy Military District of Washington DC in 1966 Army was transitioning uniforms. Summer khakis were being phased out as were the winter greens in favor of year round greens made of radically new synthetics. Washington metro area is notoriously humid with no air movement so the stagnant heat and humidity put what MSM called the "misery index" at 100 degrees. In uni Rotc the previous 4 years we had the standard wool greens and khakis. When we got caught out in rain in the wool greens we smelled like a herd of sheep ha.

    The misery index so called was the rule. So the ceremonial troops of the 3rd Infantry Rgt The Old Guard of the Army took scissors to cut the shirt under the blouse from the pectorals down to help deal with the oppressive climate and temperatures out on the parade field and in other ceremonies. Regiment HQ knew this well but never let on that it knew, which everyone in the rgt knew rgt knew about and let slide ha. Most troops did the slashing of the shirts which remained in place under the blouse by its weight over the shoulders and the pretty tight blouse fitting. Only a few proper officers and nco continued to wear the full shirt. The cut shirt fit so well it was a task to discern whether a major on rgt staff was wearing one or not, for example (usually not ha).

    Then we got the opposite in winter. Third Infantry Rgt being infantry we went into the field during the winter months which was the off tourist season and most civilian and military officials who order up ceremonies and parades also stayed indoors (although Washington winters are mild). Ceremonies, tattoos, parades are slow to non existent in winter. The 7 "line" companies rotated from post to field to post again. During winter there are always a couple of companies in the field doing FTX while there are always a couple of companies at the post to do the military funerals and the small time ceremonies that did occur, such as the arrival at the WH of the leader of France or whichever country...state dinners at WH and Pentagon arrivals of foreign military chiefs etc.

    So we spent our Old Guard summers sweltering in a multiplicity of ceremonies, tattoos, parades, but spent winters in tents with heating stoves and in FTX running around at Ft. A.P. Hill in the central Virginia mountains, to include Ft. Indiantown Gap PA. 3 IR didn't have night vision equipment then so Army sent us out at night on FTX most of the time. We had to use our own and old fashioned night vision of not looking directly at anything and eye scoping off a center point. We couldn't see our hand in front of our face anyway hah hah. The troops grabbed the belt of the grunt in front of 'em and prayed we didn't walk off a cliff cause everyone would go down in a chain...speaking of sheep ha.
    Interesting.... The name 'Fort Indiantown Gap' did not come into being until 1975..... As did your DD-214.
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  10. #170
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    Re: The US Military on the cheap. How would you do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
    It really depends on who is in power at the time. The anti-American left will always do whatever they can to weaken the US, and the pro-American right will always do whatever they can to bolster the strength of the US.

    With regard to the unconstitutional social spending by the federal government, that will eventually take care of itself. Although not in a manner that is preferred. We are currently $22+ trillion in debt, adding more than a trillion each and every year. Interest payments on the National Debt have already exceeded what is spent on Defense. In just a few short years the amount of debt the US will have accumulated will cause a complete collapse of both government and the economy. This is why the founders did not give the federal government any social spending authority. They left that entirely up to the States, who must balance their budgets by law.

    Just to highlight how bad things currently are now, it took us 191 years before the federal government managed to accumulate $1 trillion in debt (1789 to 1980). Now we exceed that debt every 9 months.
    As to your last sentence, there is a reason for that, and it likely was formalized a century ago at Jekyll Island.

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