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Does the USA need a 6th generation jet fighter and a new tank?

CMPancake said:
I can't think of a single tank that can sincerely trounce the M1 Abrams on a 1 to 1 engagement. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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The time to develop a replacement for the M1 Abrams is not when it is defeated in combat.
 
Rich2018 said:
The time to develop a replacement for the M1 Abrams is not when it is defeated in combat.
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To what end

If there are no dramatic improvements that can be identified, why go through the process of developing a new tank at great expense for a marginal potential improvement. Especially when the US military has a few thousand M1s in active duty and more in storage that can be modified and improved at a lower cost
 
PirateMk1 said:
We dont need the absolute best when good enough works just fine. Besides the 6th gen manned fighters and other combat aircraft are obsolete as is.
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You should always endeavor to improve - even if you have the absolute best a you put it.

Resting on you laurels thinking what you have is "good enough" is how wars are lost and why Detroit's auto industry collapsed when the Japanese never accepted there was such a thing as "good enough".
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
To what end

If there are no dramatic improvements that can be identified, why go through the process of developing a new tank at great expense for a marginal potential improvement. Especially when the US military has a few thousand M1s in active duty and more in storage that can be modified and improved at a lower cost
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If you think the M1 Abrams tank affords only the opportunity of "marginal potential" you have a rude awakening looming.
 
Rich2018 said:
If you think the M1 Abrams tank affords only the opportunity of "marginal potential" you have a rude awakening looming.
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The M1 with all the upgrades it has had, has gone from 55 tons when first introduced to approx. 70 tons now.

It can be upgraded to a new gun, and active defense. It's depleted Uranium armor should be among the best. The US military has over 4000 in active service with 4000 older ones in reserve. Any new model (fully new) is unlikely to be a significant upgrade to the latest versions. Unless it went to a radical redesign (ie light weight carbon fibre build relying on active defense rather than heavy armour
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The M1 with all the upgrades it has had, has gone from 55 tons when first introduced to approx. 70 tons now.

It can be upgraded to a new gun, and active defense. It's depleted Uranium armor should be among the best. The US military has over 4000 in active service with 4000 older ones in reserve. Any new model (fully new) is unlikely to be a significant upgrade to the latest versions. Unless it went to a radical redesign (ie light weight carbon fibre build relying on active defense rather than heavy armour
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Well, here is something that most people do not even seem to be aware of at all.

The newest M1 Abrams tank is over 20 years old.

Ever since 1996 whenever you hear about "New" M1 Abrams tanks, that is actually not true. At the Lima Army Tank Plant what they actually do is take an older M1 or M1A1 and strip it all the way down to the base hull, then rebuild it. It may get a new engine, new fire control, new electronics and other components but it really is just a rebuilt M1 (mostly from the first Reagan Administration). And we still have thousands of them in storage, because we made over 8,000 of them during the Carter, Reagan, Bush and Clinton Administrations.

So whenever you hear about the "money wasted on new M1 tanks", remember that is actually a lie. What they are doing is simply rebuilding old tanks, not making new tanks. Even those we sell to other countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt are just rebuilt first generation M1 tanks.

And since those tanks are part of our strategic reserve and being held in the event they might be needed in the future, why should we not do what we can to keep them current and able to compete with other tanks on a battlefield? Or does anybody actually think that they should be left as is, as first generation M1 tanks such as what President Carter might have seen?
 
I did not know that.

When I heard new and had to be enough to keep the line open I thought it was ground be new
 
independentusa said:
Almost ten nations, including some of our enemies have 6th generation fighter jets on the drawing board and a few have some already built. We have two 5th generation jets in the F-35 and the F-22, both with problems and both built by companies with significant political pull. So do we need to stop building older jets and put the money in 6th generation ones? Then we have "one" of the best tanks in the world with the Abrams, but it is almost 50 years old. Even with updates, it may not be the best tank in the world. So do we need to start to look at replacing the Abrams with a tank that will once again put us on top with the best tank?
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Absolutely we need more spending on the military. I say cut medicare and social security and food stamps and let the games begin.

I'm sure the public has no idea of what the military is working on.
 
We need the jobs these will bring, but not the planes themselves.

We don't need half the hardware we currently have, we just needed the economic booms from making them
 
It's not so much that we need it as it is about the cost to R&D and then to completely re-tool factories and what to do with the older equipment...all of which requires money and an increase in taxes to pay for it.

As many have already pointed out, and I agree, that it is good to stay ahead of everybody by evolving weapon systems...it's really just about the cost of production. Which means higher taxes, which means no one will want to pay for it. Further, we lost our edge in industry and manufacturing when people (like Trump and so many in the GOP) discovered they could make their millions more quickly in trading paper or real estate instead of making things people want and/or need. It will cost a lot to re-vitalize industry in this nation again.

So, I say yes...but it won't happen. Not with the bunch in government right now at least.
 
We need hypersonic weapons.
 
PeteEU said:
The main problem is the military industrial milking the American taxpayer and its allies by selling broken expensive systems. Again we seem never to learn from history, something that the Russians and Chinese tend to do.

Nazi Germany had some of the best weapons of the war. Problem was they were so advanced and required so much maintenance and broke down, that in the long run their advanced weaponry was a burden. The Nazi bastards could have won if their panzers were not over engineered and required so much maintenance.

The US has fallen into the same issue. I remember when Gulf War 1 came around, the US had to delay the attack because their high tech weapons could stand the dust in the desert. Apache and Abrams tanks broke down due to dust. Sure it was eventually fixed with better filters, but at the same time the Iraqi army did not have the problem because their "out dated" weapons were not as effected by the elements. Had the Iraqis attacked when the main US firepower was grounded... boy the result could have been different. No one talks about that...

Or take the F35...an expensive coffin. On paper it looks cool, but when you compare it to the previous generations it has some serious flaws. It caries less fuel and less weapons,, but the price tag is much much higher. Same thing happened with the F22.. expensive, filled with flaws (that were fixed mostly) but because of how expensive the plane is, the US cut the amount it bought considerably. US allies are buying up the F35 as a next gen plane, but the amount of conditions set are insane. You buy 10 planes, with 2 remaining in the US for "training", and out of the 8 left, you realistically can only have 3 to 4 active at any time due to maintenance issues. I mean wtf?

Time and time again, the US military reliance on top of the line unproven tech is costing everyone trillions. Look at the failed Zumwait. This project should have been dumped long ago, and yet it was pushed through for political reasons only to have the ship have engine failure on its maiden voyage and had to be towed back home. 32 were planned, 3 were made with 2 functioning (technically) and the rest cancelled due to a huge price.

What the US should be focusing more on, is material that the military actually needs. Does it need a new Tank? No, but the M1 can be upgraded as it has been before. The M1 is a great platform, so why screw around with it? Even the Russians and Chinese have realised this.

As for planes. The F35 is idiotic. I understand the military wanted one plane that fit all, but the demands of the Marines is different than the Airforce vs the Navy. This has meant a plane that was suppose to be 80% built on the same platform for all 3 forces, is now only something like 20%. This increases costs massively. Its high tech crap, is so high tech that it cant even shoot straight, but what does that matter since it can basically only hold 2 bullets or missiles (yes an exaggeration, but not far off). The worst part is, that because of the limited range of the F35, it will mean that the carrier groups will have to get closer to land and hence be open to land based missiles and even artillery.. all because of one plane. It is stupid.
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Two things should be built/rebuilt
The SOSUS/ IUSS system
It was top secret/ secret until the mid 1990's it was de funded because a lot of people in Congress either did not have a high enough clearance and had no Idea what it did, it is now declassified so people can find out it started back in the early 1050's
it could find and track everything that was in the water and on top of the water and sometimes even above the water.
It could track Russian subs at ranges of over several thousand miles
it also helped reduce the noise our subs and ships made
If they detected one of our subs they reported it and we could take our subs back to a shipyard and shock mount what ever piece of equipment so it could not be detected and may have saved a lot of our submariners lives.
Fact is after John Walker sold a lot of our secrets the Russians started making their subs more quiet
The sosus system not only tracked all the older subs but the newer Nuc. subs too and well.
The Chinese are now building a lot of new subs and this system is one that can find them and track them

One more thing we should be looking into is a Electro - magnetic burst bomb
one that could be exploded high in the air and take out all their Electronic / electric generating stations all by burning up the electronics in their control systems
have a nice day
 
Tbird19482 said:
Two things should be built/rebuilt
The SOSUS/ IUSS system
It was top secret/ secret until the mid 1990's it was de funded because a lot of people in Congress either did not have a high enough clearance and had no Idea what it did, it is now declassified so people can find out it started back in the early 1050's
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Oh nonsense!

Just because something was little known, that did not mean it was any kind of big secret.

Heck, Tom Clancy wrote extensively about both SOSUS and the GIUK Gap in his books, specifically Hunt for Red October (1984) and Red Storm Rising (1986).

During the time after the Soviet Union collapsed, most thought that the Cold War was over and done with forever. None expected that it was simply a brief interwar period before yet another Cold War would rise again.

Most people also did not know about the DEW Line either, that did not mean it was any kind of a secret. Hell, many of the capabilities of SOSUS were revealed to the public in 1968 when they released audio tapes of the sinking of the USS Scorpion.

So how it can be claimed that SOSUS was some kind of a secret over 2 decades after that is crazy.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
I did not know that.

When I heard new and had to be enough to keep the line open I thought it was ground be new
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The US Military has long been a specialist in reusing our old equipment.

Tanks are so expensive that unless there is a major change to the hull, we just reuse the hull. And at the time that the M1 was new, the US was fielding 3 Armored Divisions.

But the 3rd AD was shut down in 1992, the 2nd AD was shut down in 1995. So with only 1 Armored Division left, the US had a ton of excess M1 tanks laying around. Even after it was able to replace all of the M60 tanks being used by the Marine Corps and in the National Guard and Reserves.

What has happened since then is that we have large stockpiles of M1 tank hulls. Most of which sit at the Sierra Army Depot, in NE California.

Google Maps

This is the land vehicle version of Davis-Monthan AFB. Where all of the excess tanks, APCs, and other vehicles go. And the tanks generally sit here until more tanks are needed, either by the US or another nation. They are then pulled out, put onto trains and shipped to the Lima Army Tank Plant in Ohio. There they are stripped to the bare hull and rebuilt. After all, there is absolutely no difference between the hull of an original M1 and the hull of an M1A2.

But since it is a complete hull down replacement it is essentially a brand new tank. Not even the paint is left, they literally strip it down to the bare metal and start again from there.

Heck, we even reuse old aircraft.

Whenever we did PATRIOT test fire missions at White Sands Missile Range, it was against aircraft of the 82nd Aerial Target Squadron. Primarily F-4 Phantom II jets converted to unmanned drones. Today the QF-4 have all been expended, so today the target drone in use is the QF-16. And yes, they are made from F-16s that have been retired and converted to use as target drones.

And that link is really mind blowing, when you realize as you zoom in that each of those dark lines are row after row after row of military vehicles. Hundreds upon hundreds of M1 and M60 tanks. M113 and M2 APCs. Fuelers, cargo trucks, HMMWVs, about the only military vehicle I have not been able to find there are PATRIOT launchers. Of course, we have never shut down a PATRIOT unit, so I would not expect to find any. We have not made any of those in decades, and we still call upon active duty units to do test missions for upgrades.
 
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Oozlefinch said:
Oh nonsense!

Just because something was little known, that did not mean it was any kind of big secret.

Heck, Tom Clancy wrote extensively about both SOSUS and the GIUK Gap in his books, specifically Hunt for Red October (1984) and Red Storm Rising (1986).

During the time after the Soviet Union collapsed, most thought that the Cold War was over and done with forever. None expected that it was simply a brief interwar period before yet another Cold War would rise again.

Most people also did not know about the DEW Line either, that did not mean it was any kind of a secret. Hell, many of the capabilities of SOSUS were revealed to the public in 1968 when they released audio tapes of the sinking of the USS Scorpion.

So how it can be claimed that SOSUS was some kind of a secret over 2 decades after that is crazy.
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Well having been an ST/OT and worked in the system I know for a fact it was started in the early 1950's ( John Walker sold the secret info about the system to the Russians n the mid to late 1960's ) and WAS SECRET until officially declassified in 1991
They may have written about it and that it helped locate those subs and the Russian sub ( I believe it was K129 )
Here is some reading on the system
Sound Surveillance System (SOSUS)
You can see in 1991 it was finally declassified
" 1991 - The SOSUS IUSS system mission was declassified."

https://www.public.navy.mil/subfor/underseawarfaremagazine/Issues/Archives/issue

https://www.public.navy.mil/subfor/underseawarfaremagazine/Issues/Archives/issue_2

Scientists Fight Navy Plan to Shut Far-Flung Undersea Spy System - The New York Times

Anybody that worked in the " system " since the early 1950's to 1991 and the IUSS system after had to hold a SECRET clearance and a lot of us TOP SECRET and above
Have a nice day
 
Oozlefinch said:
Oh nonsense!

Just because something was little known, that did not mean it was any kind of big secret.

Heck, Tom Clancy wrote extensively about both SOSUS and the GIUK Gap in his books, specifically Hunt for Red October (1984) and Red Storm Rising (1986).

During the time after the Soviet Union collapsed, most thought that the Cold War was over and done with forever. None expected that it was simply a brief interwar period before yet another Cold War would rise again.

Most people also did not know about the DEW Line either, that did not mean it was any kind of a secret. Hell, many of the capabilities of SOSUS were revealed to the public in 1968 when they released audio tapes of the sinking of the USS Scorpion.

So how it can be claimed that SOSUS was some kind of a secret over 2 decades after that is crazy.
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PS
again they wrote about the SOSUS system and may have given people some idea of what the systems capabilities were but how it worked, and where the arrays were were secret and never have been declassified
The existence and what it did and the use of Hydrophones on the bottom of the ocean have been declassified but how that info was processed has never been.
Have a nice day
 
Tbird19482 said:
Well having been an ST/OT and worked in the system I know for a fact it was started in the early 1950's ( John Walker sold the secret info about the system to the Russians n the mid to late 1960's ) and WAS SECRET until officially declassified in 1991
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Of course. A lot about the PATRIOT system is still classified. Anybody that works on it has to have a SECRET security clearance or higher.

But that does not mean it's existence or capabilities are a secret. Just that details are kept to a need to know basis.

Even today I find myself when talking about more then just generalities about PATRIOT I go to open-source locations. That is because I never talk about things from memory, not wanting to accidentally "leak" something that might still be classified.
 
Oozlefinch said:
Of course. A lot about the PATRIOT system is still classified. Anybody that works on it has to have a SECRET security clearance or higher.

But that does not mean it's existence or capabilities are a secret. Just that details are kept to a need to know basis.

Even today I find myself when talking about more then just generalities about PATRIOT I go to open-source locations. That is because I never talk about things from memory, not wanting to accidentally "leak" something that might still be classified.
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Probably the same type of deal
The SOSUS system was classified for years . from the early 1950's till the 1990's
It isn't so much what they do but how it is done
what I was saying it was a really good system that Congress didn't know too much about and shut it down and now they are thinking of up grading it because of the newer Subs, from Russia and China
when a system can detect a sub at ranges of well over a thousand miles and track it for days it is a good system
Have a nice day
 
It's like most things. We don't need them. Until we do. Of course by then it might be too late.
 
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