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Thread: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    You play games mocking, but you of all people should know they had in public domain since the 1960's how to defeat stealth, before any us stealth projects became public. The mere fact the newest generations of stealth run on the idea that bands lower than x can not target is so stupid because the sam with the highest kill count ran on s band which except the highest of ranges detects stealth fine, that is literally how they had no issue targetting the sr-71 even though in higher bands at operating altitude it had a radar signature similar to a small bird, because to x band that is what it was, but to mid and lower range s band it looked like an sr-71.

    Major hubris is thinking that russia was not able to ever improve their targeting since the 1950's, besides s band they also use irst, which has a short range and a narrow picture, usually around 60-90 km and like looking through a straw to find a target, however l band s band etc can guide them to target and let the irst internal guidance take over.

    The even bigger hubris would be anyone stupid enough to run aircraft where L band operates, you can literally detect L band long before it detects you and know it is time to redirect rather than chancing it thinking stealth will somehow bypass almost 60 years of anti stealth research especially when you can avoid sam sites altogether in many cases.
    I don't know what nonsense you've been reading, but L band is not some magical stealth killer. L Band's actually pretty useless for most things, because the resolution is so low you can't track targets with it, even get a good estimate for direction and distance. And since the resolution is so low, even detecting the plane isn't that easy; you would have to have multiple arrays and well trained technicians just to be able to get a positive ID.
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    You would be surprised at how well the A-10 would do in modern warfare.
    You'd be surprised how many would get shot down.

    The A-10 was built with the purpose of whittling down columns of Soviet armor as it rolled across the West German border. Except the Soviets supplied numerous air defense systems to their tactical elements in the form SPAAGs or SHOARD systems. The Air Force knew this, which is why they built hundreds of A-10s, because they expected to lose hundreds. It was well established just a few years after the A-10 was introduced that Soviet air defense systems could blow them out of the sky.

    The A-10 did fine in Iraq because Iraqi crews were notoriously poorly trained when it came to handling their equipment, and even then they managed to down a handful. The A-10 operates well in COIN ops where there's no real concentrated anti-air to shoot back, and it would be good to keep it around for those kinds of wars, but it's stupid to pretend there's no valid reason to retire it.

    Especially do the missions it was designed to do which is tactical level interdiction. In fact it's mission profile for that sort of mission hasn't really changed because it would be going up against the same kinds of things it was designed to, which are IFV's, Anti Air units, Tanks, logistical train elements. To do that mission it does what its always had to do, fly between the trees. The A-10's can get deeper faster than the AH-64's can and bring more pain when they do get deep. The A-10 can do wild weasel missions with the best of them, as that was one of their missions. The A-10 is NOT obsolete by any means. A couple of flights of A-10's can decimate an amour battalion of tanks in seconds.[/QUOTE]
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    I don't know what nonsense you've been reading, but L band is not some magical stealth killer. L Band's actually pretty useless for most things, because the resolution is so low you can't track targets with it, even get a good estimate for direction and distance. And since the resolution is so low, even detecting the plane isn't that easy; you would have to have multiple arrays and well trained technicians just to be able to get a positive ID.
    L band is actually very good at tracking targets, not sure what nonsense you have read but nearly everything on the internet says otherwise basing off information modern going back to ww2. L band is not accurate enough to guide but it is plenty enought to track. Also he literal same is said about s band which holds the record for sam kills, you say it is impossible but the russians had it working in the 1950's with s and l bands used together.

    All bands have progressed since ww2 and the 1950's, however the most modern stealth like the f-22 and f-35 makes no effort to resist l or s band, and focuses on x band like that is the only thing available, even though the ancient sa-2 can literally track them and fire at them with little issue. The only stealth optimised to counter such are ones like the b-117 and b-2 which use a delta wing design which L and s bands can still see but at a much reduced range.
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    Both of which had no impact on the war and did nothing but soak up German resources at a time when they desperately needed them for more economical projects. Having cool gizmos doesn't mean **** if they're actually useless.




    The actual story behind this is Germany started a war which required massive oil reserves that they didn't have, so they had to resort to synthetic versions because otherwise their mechanized and armored forces would've ground to a halt. If they had been really smart they would have either a( secured oil reserves before hand, or b) not center their entire doctrine around using armored forces.
    Whether they had an impact or not, they were vastly ahead of the us in tech and lost, the us focused on practicality while nazi germany pushed tech to overcome shortcomings they had like lack of oil reserves . Their v-2 rocket design was used by both the us and the soviet union to fist enter space, and was also the first ballistic missile as well as the first ever hypersonic missile which britain deemed so hard to stop it was easier to get hit than waste the anti aircraft ammo trying to stop them, the number they estimated it would take with a wall of lead to stop that missile was absurd.
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    No Russia is quite broke. It's why they are not buying SU57s or T14 tanks. I think your bias is making you not see reality.

    So you are just going to stick with the claim that you know more then pretty much the entirety of the major air forces of the world. To include Russia. Interesting claim. Forgive me if I don't take it very seriously.
    Russia is not as broke as you think, since 2008 they have modernized their military at a rapid rate, their nation is nearly debt free as well, that sounds like the literal opposite of broke since they can pay off their debt tonight if they literally wished. Look at their aquisition rates, they are impossible given their stated budget, they are just doing what they do, they always find money in their budget for more no matter how much they trim down, it is vodoo budgeting, or simply they are lying about their own defense expenditures.
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    Funny how according to you stealth is easy to defeat yet every major military is try to include stealth features into everything from planes to ships to tanks. You should probably tell them they are wasting their time and money.

    Or how Russia has been working on and off again on stealth aircraft for decades.

    Or how the F22 is the world's most dominant air superiority fighter with a large part of that reason being stealth.


    I wonder why so many countries want to buy the F35 seeing as its stealth is so easily defeated.
    For one russia has not worked on and off for decades on stealth, they stopped in the 1960's and did not restart until not to long ago. Other nations are trying to buy stealth not develope it, very few actually try and develope it.

    The f-22 was intercepted twice over syria by su-35 aircraft and also lost in air comp[etition against the eurofighter, it literally is only the best in terms of that it will only compete where it has no competition, the us withdrew them from syria after the su35 intercepted the f-22 and refuse to do any competitions against any nations except with nato only aircraft, for such a badass aircraft the us is sure scared to let it out of it's cage, heck I do not recall them using them in competitions against even nato aircraft after it lost to the eurofighter.


    It is like saying you have the fastest car on earth but when challenged demand the race only include yugo's as competition, and even banning any yugo's that beat you.

    Also to note the f-22 took multiple missiles to down a soviet dinosaur in syria, the aim9x missile failed badly to down the aircraft and they had to resort to older radar guided missiles to down it, which later they admitted they never tested the missile against russian flares and it is highly likely they never figured maneuvers inter their testing of the missile either.
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    For one russia has not worked on and off for decades on stealth, they stopped in the 1960's and did not restart until not to long ago. Other nations are trying to buy stealth not develope it, very few actually try and develope it.

    The f-22 was intercepted twice over syria by su-35 aircraft and also lost in air comp[etition against the eurofighter, it literally is only the best in terms of that it will only compete where it has no competition, the us withdrew them from syria after the su35 intercepted the f-22 and refuse to do any competitions against any nations except with nato only aircraft, for such a badass aircraft the us is sure scared to let it out of it's cage, heck I do not recall them using them in competitions against even nato aircraft after it lost to the eurofighter.


    It is like saying you have the fastest car on earth but when challenged demand the race only include yugo's as competition, and even banning any yugo's that beat you.

    Also to note the f-22 took multiple missiles to down a soviet dinosaur in syria, the aim9x missile failed badly to down the aircraft and they had to resort to older radar guided missiles to down it, which later they admitted they never tested the missile against russian flares and it is highly likely they never figured maneuvers inter their testing of the missile either.
    Planes like the Sukhoi T-60S, Sukhoi T-4, Yak 43 and the SU35 indicate you don't know quite as much as you think they do. Russia obviously felt stealth was not a waste of time.
    And no plenty of country's at trying to develop fur own stealth aircraft. China, South Korea, Great Britain Germany and of course Russia are all trying to develop thier own stealth aircraft. Proving you wrong one again. Furthermore I am not sure how you think countries wanting to buy instead of develop thier own stealth aircraft helps your claim other countries would not be trying to develop our but it if it was such a waste of time.

    I think you need to read some sources other then Russian state media about that "intercept".
    And just because something is the best doesn't mean it is unbeatable. There is a very real reason that when ever the F22 loses it is major news. And that's not even getting into the fact that most of those mock air battles are set to test a certain aspect and do not represent actual combat.

    And finally that you are trying to use the failure of a missile as a knock against the F22 shows just how silly you are willing to get in order to try and hold on to your obvious pro Russian bias.you really should stop a you are only making yourself look all the more silly.
    Last edited by braindrain; 04-16-19 at 12:19 AM.
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    L band is actually very good at tracking targets,
    Do you not understand how radars work?

    L band is low frequency and therefore low resolution. The supposed reason you've listed that it "works" against stealth is because most stealth planes are designed to be obscured from the higher frequency X band radar systems. But your repeated insistence that L band is somehow a stealth killer is stupid.

    L band radar may be able to detect it but it can't give height, and it's ability to determine direction is exceptionally limited. This has nothing to do with "post WWII upgrades" because that's the very nature of low frequency bands. More importantly L band can't target or lock on, which makes it useless for actually destroying the aircraft. You need a higher frequency radar to do that, and guess what frequencies modern stealth aircrafts are designed to beat?
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    Whether they had an impact or not,
    Whether or not the military hardware you're building is actually helping win the war is probably the biggest question you should be asking of your production capacity. Quit trying to pretend that making rockets somehow translates to complete technological supremacy.

    80% of the German Army was never mechanized. That means 4/5 German soldiers had to have horses transport their equipment. What were you saying about technology?
    “We were all of us cogs in a great machine which sometimes rolled forward, nobody knew where, sometimes backwards, nobody knew why.”

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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    Whether or not the military hardware you're building is actually helping win the war is probably the biggest question you should be asking of your production capacity. Quit trying to pretend that making rockets somehow translates to complete technological supremacy.

    80% of the German Army was never mechanized. That means 4/5 German soldiers had to have horses transport their equipment. What were you saying about technology?
    But the argument was more advanced, in which germany quite well was, the us built more practical, as 100 jetfighters did no good against countless thousands of conventional prop powered aircraft, and their advances ate up too much of their recources to be an advantage.

    But the tech was there, you would be correct that it never won the war, which is why I never rely on how advanced something is but rather how practical it is and how easy it is to field effectively to the troops and replace when needed.
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