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Thread: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    No it is not where it takes place, however tactical defenses would have been planned before they ever saw the soviets build them. Hell america has had the hawk since 1959 literally capable of being used as a tactical system, systems as such were known long before that they were capable of being used otherwise.
    But did the Soviets have tactical air defense SAM systems? No, they had SPAAGs. Which is what the A-10 was designed in mind.
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    Actually I seriously doubt you researched it much, you keep claiming it was to support but everything I have read has shown it as the main offensive and defensive weapon of the squad with the squad to support the machine gun not the other way around.
    You haven't listed a single source to back up any claims you've made in this thread.


    The mg42 fired that fast because they designed it to, it was a cheap gun to make but hell to keep on the battlefield, it can burn through ammo even in burst fire so fast that every soldier needed to carry ammo just to have any duration, unlike modern systems like the saw or 240b or m-60(ok the m60 is not too modern) which fire at a much slower rate allowing a longer period of fire on a smaller amount of ammo, and also kept light infantry from being burdened with being the machine gunners pack mule by needing to carry such an extreme amount of ammo to last any amount of time with a gun that fires 1800 rounds a minute.
    The MG42 fired fast because it took the complex parts out of the MG34 in order to make it mass produce able. It also was necessary to make up for squad deficiencies in the Germany Army after Barbarossa. Numerous first hand accounts by American soldiers indicate how badly outmatched they were by the MG42's rate of fire.


    I got a question, have you ever had to carry even an m249 with the ammo? The ammo carried is not that much however it does add weight, but with 400-600 rounds the saw can stay in a battle with suppressive fire for quite a while. Now imagine needing far more than that with an mg42, with a much heavier round than the the 5.56, and needing to have everyone carry your extra ammo. There is a literal reason the us military did not copy their tactics, the german tactics were rehashed trench tactics that relied more on firepower than mobility rather than a balance.
    Yeah I did, I was a SAW gunner for about a year in my section. Which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, since the 249 is a Light machine gun and the MG42 is a GPMG.
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    But did the Soviets have tactical air defense SAM systems? No, they had SPAAGs. Which is what the A-10 was designed in mind.
    You using tactical sams is a bs stretch at best, the soviets were capable of using them tactically since the early 50's and america had the same capability since 1959 with the hawk, claiming it was not designed to deal with such would be to claim the military leadership was so inept they could not figure out the absolute basics of movement.

    Let me give you a hint, both the russians and americans knew quite well before the a-10 was a cratch on a piece of paper air defenses could be used in a tactical sense.
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    German Infantry Tactics of World War II

    The MG42 Machine Gun Was Hitler’s Buzz Saw - War Is Boring - Medium


    I can actually pull up quite a few more links, all of them describing germany as literally doing the opposite of infantry worldwide by using infantry to support the machine gun rather than the machine gun supporting infantry.
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    You haven't listed a single source to back up any claims you've made in this thread.




    The MG42 fired fast because it took the complex parts out of the MG34 in order to make it mass produce able. It also was necessary to make up for squad deficiencies in the Germany Army after Barbarossa. Numerous first hand accounts by American soldiers indicate how badly outmatched they were by the MG42's rate of fire.




    Yeah I did, I was a SAW gunner for about a year in my section. Which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, since the 249 is a Light machine gun and the MG42 is a GPMG.
    Meant to quote this just look above
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    Meant to quote this just look above
    None of your links proved your points nor disproved mine, even the war is boring site which is not a good website to begin with.
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    You using tactical sams is a bs stretch at best, the soviets were capable of using them tactically since the early 50's and america had the same capability since 1959 with the hawk, claiming it was not designed to deal with such would be to claim the military leadership was so inept they could not figure out the absolute basics of movement.
    No, the Soviets did not use SAMs as tactical air defenses until the late 60s earlier 70s, and it didn't become widespread until the mid-70s.

    Let me give you a hint, both the russians and americans knew quite well before the a-10 was a cratch on a piece of paper air defenses could be used in a tactical sense.
    What does this even mean
    “We were all of us cogs in a great machine which sometimes rolled forward, nobody knew where, sometimes backwards, nobody knew why.”

    ― Ernst Toller

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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    The view of a drone is not a wide view like from the cockpit of an a-10 or even the scrapped but being pushed again a-29. The a-10 has a cockpit designed to hold a wide view of the battlefield. Yes friendly fire has occurred with them as well, however if up close visual confirmation fails, it is likely that non visual confirmation or confirmation from high up would fail far worse.

    Also the a-29 was not wanted just because they wanted their own plane, it was because the airforce fought tooth and nail to keep the a-10 out of afghanistan as much as possible despite it being the best terrain for the a-10 to operate in, and instead widely used them in iraq the most hostile terrain for them to operate in almost like the airforce was being the airforce and trying to make the aircraft look bad which they still failed at.


    The a-29 was not just socom wanting an aircraft, they wanted one with a very long loiter time, visual confirmation, the ability to carry a wide range of munitions from small 100 and 250 pound bombs as well as cannons to larger 500 pound bombs, as well as rockets and also hold the ability to work in day and night missions where friendly and hostile forces were in extremely close proximity. The literal aircraft that already met those demands was the a-10 but the airforce did not want to use them in afghanistan, usually having only a few at any given time for the entire country and instead relying almost entirely on the b-52 and the f16 with the 8 minute rule.
    Wide field of view is not the only thing that matters when it comes to having a good view of the battlefield. Your claim that drones suck for providing visual confirmation is simply ridiculous. Yeah they suck so much that they are the preferred tool for ISR. If a commander is looking to get eyes on a target or an enemy position no one requests an A10. And one of the main reasons is drones like preds provide much better eyes on.

    And you claiming that if close up visual confirmation failed then non visual would fail is simply you making things up. CAS is done all the time without visual confirmation.
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    Re: U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia



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