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Marine commandant says deploying troops to border poses 'unacceptable risk' to readiness

beerftw said:
44 nations in isaf, man such a big number, too bad militarily there is zero reasonable interest to have marines there, and there never will be unless we can convert one of it's only two neighbors into a friendly nation.

You bring up mediations, yes mongolia is good at that, they hold the third neighbor policy even though they have only two neighbors and they also adhere to the non alignment movement like india. But to re iterate there is no strategic interest in mongolia, there is nothing defensible there, and no real gain to be had with marines being there, it likely was hitting the chopping block long before trump declared a national emergency.
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I support Gen. Neller, the JCS, Pentagon, Department of State, Nato and EU concerning Mongolia.

Gen. Neller says the Corps can't fund Marine exercises with Mongolian troops in Mongolia because of the wrong headed deployment costs at the southern border -- the total cost of which will be pushing $1 billion by the end of the year.

Neller did not say the Marines exercises were on a list of redundancies or defunded projects or exercises. Neller said the money for the exercises in Mongolia went to the border deployments instead. The Mongolia exercises were scheduled and planned when the money dried up due to the unnecessary and undesirable border deployment of US forces under Northern Command in concert with US Southern Command in support.

USMC budget is $45.8 billion so its pool of available funds is not the $700-plus billion DoD has. The Corps needs $3.7 billion in repairs and reconstruction from last year's hurricane season, at Camp Lejuene NC in particular where the 1st Expeditionary Force headquarters is still without a roof. I know you oppose all of this just the same as I am certain Putin wants to see the USMC funding fail. Corporal R. Winger that you are.
 
ecofarm said:
I expect Mongolia controls a corridor to international access as a matter of treaty.
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They do but that treaty only holds up as long as it's neighbors abide by it, so if it came to defending mongolia from china it would require allowance from russia, which we are on bad terms to allow military in, which would likely not happen since russia would send their own military in and block us military from reaching there. If russia ionvaded there imagine the exact reverse scenario.

Either way mongolia is friendly with many nations oincluding china which still believes mongolia is it's territory, and this is because they are outnumbered and outmatched in every direction and if shtf there is no way for any military to aid them unless that military first defeated it's two neighbors which also hold the ranks of second and third most powerful militaries on earth.


Even with china recognizing mongolia, the chinese view them as theior property, and they were a soviet puppet state for a long time and even had their own version of stalin, they are pretty screwed no matter which way you look at it.
 
beerftw said:
They do but that treaty only holds up as long as it's neighbors abide by it, so if it came to defending mongolia from china it would require allowance from russia, which we are on bad terms to allow military in, which would likely not happen since russia would send their own military in and block us military from reaching there. If russia ionvaded there imagine the exact reverse scenario.

Either way mongolia is friendly with many nations oincluding china which still believes mongolia is it's territory, and this is because they are outnumbered and outmatched in every direction and if shtf there is no way for any military to aid them unless that military first defeated it's two neighbors which also hold the ranks of second and third most powerful militaries on earth.


Even with china recognizing mongolia, the chinese view them as theior property, and they were a soviet puppet state for a long time and even had their own version of stalin, they are pretty screwed no matter which way you look at it.
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Without airway to international traffic, Mongolia is a second class country. There's no way China or Russia deny Mongolia sovereign association.
 
ecofarm said:
Without airway to international traffic, Mongolia is a second class country. There's no way China or Russia deny Mongolia sovereign association.
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Russia would likely not for commercial but china very well could. the idea of international traffic relies on nations passed through allowing such. This is why mongolia is allied with china even though china still believes them their property, because goods must pass through either china or russia, and a ;large amount of goods in the east originate in china, meaning china could very well starve their economy. Sure they would have russia still supplying them but the russian manufacturing base is much smaller and produces a smaller array of goods than china.
 
beerftw said:
Russia would likely not for commercial but china very well could. the idea of international traffic relies on nations passed through allowing such. This is why mongolia is allied with china even though china still believes them their property, because goods must pass through either china or russia, and a ;large amount of goods in the east originate in china, meaning china could very well starve their economy. Sure they would have russia still supplying them but the russian manufacturing base is much smaller and produces a smaller array of goods than china.
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It would be a shock if China instituted a military blockade of Mongolia. Russia, totally impossible couldn't happen.
 
Tangmo said:
I support Gen. Neller, the JCS, Pentagon, Department of State, Nato and EU concerning Mongolia.

Gen. Neller says the Corps can't fund Marine exercises with Mongolian troops in Mongolia because of the wrong headed deployment costs at the southern border -- the total cost of which will be pushing $1 billion by the end of the year.

Neller did not say the Marines exercises were on a list of redundancies or defunded projects or exercises. Neller said the money for the exercises in Mongolia went to the border deployments instead. The Mongolia exercises were scheduled and planned when the money dried up due to the unnecessary and undesirable border deployment of US forces under Northern Command in concert with US Southern Command in support.

USMC budget is $45.8 billion so its pool of available funds is not the $700-plus billion DoD has. The Corps needs $3.7 billion in repairs and reconstruction from last year's hurricane season, at Camp Lejuene NC in particular where the 1st Expeditionary Force headquarters is still without a roof. I know you oppose all of this just the same as I am certain Putin wants to see the USMC funding fail. Corporal R. Winger that you are.
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If you really want to talk about marine corps funds I will tell you, they are complaining about nothing, not being able to hold an excercise in mongolia is not a problem of the marine corps. When I deployed they rolled around in humvees with the vinyl parts held with tape, generators held with bailing wire, heck they were given 100 mile an hour tape to fix torn uniforms because the marines there could not get a dx for their uniforms due to insufficient funds. The mere fact the marines could not afford new uniforms that were damaged or that they were rolling around in 998 soft top trucks that are so ragged they should have been replaced two decades ago tells me anyone griping about a deployment to mongolia is completely out of touch with how underfunded the marines are, and are advocating more waste for innefective deployments rather than demanding funds to fix their own equipment.
 
ecofarm said:
It would be a shock if China instituted a military blockade of Mongolia. Russia, totally impossible couldn't happen.
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Not impossible for russia by any means, just extremely improbable, as russia just wants mongolia as a puppet state not as their direct property, so them trying to blockade mongolia contradicts their goals, while china wants them as a direct property, in which they care not about public opinion as they would rule the area directly instead of achieving a puppet state through bribery and subsidy like russia.
 
beerftw said:
If you really want to talk about marine corps funds I will tell you, they are complaining about nothing, not being able to hold an excercise in mongolia is not a problem of the marine corps. When I deployed they rolled around in humvees with the vinyl parts held with tape, generators held with bailing wire, heck they were given 100 mile an hour tape to fix torn uniforms because the marines there could not get a dx for their uniforms due to insufficient funds. The mere fact the marines could not afford new uniforms that were damaged or that they were rolling around in 998 soft top trucks that are so ragged they should have been replaced two decades ago tells me anyone griping about a deployment to mongolia is completely out of touch with how underfunded the marines are, and are advocating more waste for innefective deployments rather than demanding funds to fix their own equipment.
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We're talking billions of bucks here corporal. This is in contrast to your rags to rags story before going into the armed forces, being in the armed forces and after your time in the armed forces.

And we're talking Trump being opposed by Pentagon chiefs and civilian appointees who reject the deployment and billion dollar expense of troops to the southern border by a commander in chief who wanted rules of engagement to shoot unarmed civilians. Pentagon finally quashed the rules being issued as Trump wanted 'em to be issued. Worse and related, Rightwingers have posted for years they want machine guns lined up at the border against unarmed migrants who might be near a rock.

As for Mongolia nobody expects Mongolia to hold out for five minutes against either Russia or the CCP Dictator-Tyrants in Beijing. You are talking tiddlywink nonsense in your petty thoughts about Mongolia relative to the US, the Western alliance, Russia, China and the proximity of NK, i.e., geostrategic factors to include the value to the USA of alliances.

You are not onto anything in your posts about this nor are you revealing anything. You are instead stating and restating the obvious while you ignore -- if you knew to begin with -- that Mongolia is a democracy and that it contributes to the Western alliance, in Afghanistan in particular.

Corporal.
 
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Tangmo said:
We're talking billions of bucks here corporal. This is in contrast to your rags to rags story before going into the armed forces, being in the armed forces and after your time in the armed forces.

And we're talking Trump being opposed by Pentagon chiefs and civilian appointees who reject the deployment and billion dollar expense of troops to the southern border by a commander in chief who wanted rules of engagement to shoot unarmed civilians. Pentagon finally quashed the rules being issued as Trump wanted 'em to be issued. Worse and related, Rightwingers have posted for years they want machine guns lined up at the border against unarmed migrants who might be near a rock.

As for Mongolia nobody expects Mongolia to hold out for five minutes against either Russia or the CCP Dictator-Tyrants in Beijing. You are talking tiddlywink nonsense in your petty thoughts about Mongolia relative to the US, the Western alliance, Russia, China and the proximity of NK, i.e., geostrategic factors to include the value to the USA of alliances.

You are not onto anything in your posts about this nor are you revealing anything. You are instead stating and restating the obvious while you ignore -- if you knew to begin with -- that Mongolia is a democracy and that it contributes to the Western alliance, in Afghanistan in particular.

Corporal.
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And Tangmo continues to use rank/rate incorrectly.

If someone was not a corporal calling the corporal is incorrect.

That is not something a real officer would have done. A wannabe cadet perhaps. But not a real officer.

Repeated intentional ignorance is the Tangmo way.
 
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This is year three of this.

Three more years to go no doubt.

And then some, of course. Retired as an enlisted lifer, eternally as an sworn rightwinger.
 
A couple of thoughts here. First the Marines have always been a mistreated step child. They are under the Department of the Navy and the Navy wants to spend all their money on big ships. Second, the Marines are an amphibious force. Why would they do exercises in a land locked country like Mongolia? Third, because they are an amphibious force in an era where amphibious assault would be suicide, they are a dinosaur. It is time to do away with the Marines and move those people and money over to the Army. Duplicating functions is always inefficient. Fourth, exercises in Mongolia accomplish nothing except anger China and Russia. There is no practical way Mongolia could ever be a mission base. I know there are those who want to move back to the Cold War Days, but that accomplishes nothing. Why do some want to keep us in a situation where we are forced to spend hundreds of billions on defense annually. Wouldn't it be better to establish a dialog with these countries, move away from conflict and spend some of that defense money elsewhere?
 
Trump needs to take care of business as Potus/Cinc and quit trying to turn the southern border into US military killing fields of unarmed migrants and to force Mexico into a hostile neighbor at our border.


Hurricane Florence Repairs At Camp Lejeune Will Cost Billions, And More Big Storms Are Likely

Originally published on February 5, 2019

691710731.jpg

Tony Sholar of the Marine Corps stands in the abandoned headquarters of a Marine unit at Camp Lejeune, N.C. The building was damaged in Hurricane Florence, and rainwater still pours through damaged roof.
JAY PRICE / AMERICAN HOMEFRONT


The Marine Corps says Camp Lejeune, N.C. needs $3.6 billion in repairs, as scientists warn climate change will lead to more big storms and affect military readiness.

The final tally is in for the damage that Hurricane Florence wreaked on the Marine Corps' Camp Lejeune, N.C., and the number is startling.

'"The total bill comes to $3.6 billion dollars," the Corps' top officer, Gen. Robert Neller, told the Senate Armed Services Committee in December.

In the four months since the hurricane, the extraordinary amount of damage to the main East Coast Marine base hasn't received much attention, in part because it may not look spectacular from the outside. The most visible sign is dozens of blue tarps, draped over roofs all over the sprawling base.

Hurricane Florence Repairs At Camp Lejeune Will Cost Billions, And More Big Storms Are Likely | WUNC





Trump and Fanboys will not recognize this nor do they care.


Camp Lejeune is still a mess 6 months after Hurricane Florence. Where's the money for repairs?

The Marine Corps' top general says one "negative factor" delaying repairs is the diversion of resources to the military mission at the U.S.-Mexico border.


CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C. — More than six months after Hurricane Florence ravaged North Carolina, hundreds of buildings at Camp Lejeune and two other nearby Marine Corps installations remain frozen in time, with walls still caved in and roofs missing.

The Marines say they need $3.6 billion to repair the damage to more than 900 buildings at Camp Lejeune, Marine Corps Air Station New River, and Marine Corps Air Station Cherry Point caused by the storm and catastrophic flooding in its aftermath.

190124-camp-lejeune-mc-1506_b64129919a491ea855435418d2e3053b.fit-560w.JPG

The globe and anchor stand at the entrance to Camp Lejeune, N.C. Allen Breed / AP file

Now the Marine Corps' top officer is warning that readiness at Camp Lejeune — home to one third of the Corps' total combat power — is degraded and "will continue to degrade given current conditions." In a recent memo to Navy Secretary Richard Spencer, Commandant Gen. Robert Neller cited, among other "negative factors," the diversion of resources to the border, where the Trump administration has sent active-duty troops to patrol and plans to use military funding to pay for a wall.


Neller wrote that the lack of the money needed for repairs, and unexpected expenses like the U.S. military mission at the southern border, are "imposing unacceptable risk to Marine Corps combat readiness and solvency."

190329-camp-lejeune-al-1533_c72a3efa7febebce44422b3fda231bab.fit-560w.jpg

Roof damage caused by Hurricane Florence inside one of the buildings at Camp Lejeune.NBC News


At Camp Lejeune's Second Marine Expeditionary Force headquarters, roughly half the structures received significant structural damage and most of the roofs were blown off. They are still covered with blue tarps. Second MEF -- or II MEF, as it is usually known -- is one of three MEFS around the world, and represents a third of the Corps ready combat strength.

"We're 100 percent operational," said Col. Brian Wolford, chief of staff to II MEF. "We're here doing our work. But the conditions we're working under are just like when we were in Iraq or Afghanistan." The devastation has forced the Marines to scale back on some training, including exercises at Onslow Beach, where amphibious training teaches Marines to attack from the land and sea.


"Marines will find a way to accomplish the mission," he said. "It just becomes harder and harder. And we ask more and more of our service members and their families to accomplish the same mission." The next hurricane season begins on June 1. Gen. Neller is expected to retire from the Marine Corps by then, after 44 years of service. Lt. Gen. David H. Berger has been nominated to replace him.

Camp Lejeune is still a mess 6 months after Hurricane Florence. Where'''s the money for repairs?
 
Tangmo said:
This is year three of this.

Three more years to go no doubt.

And then some, of course. Retired as an enlisted lifer, eternally as an sworn rightwinger.
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And another example of Tangmo courageously not quoting the target of his impotent insults...

A real officer would not lack the balls to address others directly.

A cadet perhaps.
 
Tangmo said:
We're talking billions of bucks here corporal. This is in contrast to your rags to rags story before going into the armed forces, being in the armed forces and after your time in the armed forces.

And we're talking Trump being opposed by Pentagon chiefs and civilian appointees who reject the deployment and billion dollar expense of troops to the southern border by a commander in chief who wanted rules of engagement to shoot unarmed civilians. Pentagon finally quashed the rules being issued as Trump wanted 'em to be issued. Worse and related, Rightwingers have posted for years they want machine guns lined up at the border against unarmed migrants who might be near a rock.

As for Mongolia nobody expects Mongolia to hold out for five minutes against either Russia or the CCP Dictator-Tyrants in Beijing. You are talking tiddlywink nonsense in your petty thoughts about Mongolia relative to the US, the Western alliance, Russia, China and the proximity of NK, i.e., geostrategic factors to include the value to the USA of alliances.

You are not onto anything in your posts about this nor are you revealing anything. You are instead stating and restating the obvious while you ignore -- if you knew to begin with -- that Mongolia is a democracy and that it contributes to the Western alliance, in Afghanistan in particular.

Corporal.
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So using corporal again as an insult, It would be nice if you called me private, I have held nco positions before up to the rank of e6 but never actually had the authority to back it since I never got past e-3 since I had a thing for getting in trouble but also stayed in until an honerable discharge because I could show up on time and do my job good.

The pentagon chiefs are angry because this dips into their pet projects, many of these projects are unneccessary and through politics more than anything. If a few billion broke the military with funds that were not allocated to the pet projects they are griping about it is just political. I can see the gripes about infrastructure, that is an area trump is taking money from, for mongolia deployments it seems more like someone making excuses to gripe about funds they already did not have.

Mongolia is a democracy, however sending marines there does zero for that, or provides any benefit to anyone in either country. Mongolia in recent years has been siding with russia again, not because we were unable to send marines there for training, but because the us has slashed investment in the nation both on the govt and civilian level, while russia is increasing their investment there.
 
BahamaBob said:
A couple of thoughts here. First the Marines have always been a mistreated step child. They are under the Department of the Navy and the Navy wants to spend all their money on big ships. Second, the Marines are an amphibious force. Why would they do exercises in a land locked country like Mongolia? Third, because they are an amphibious force in an era where amphibious assault would be suicide, they are a dinosaur. It is time to do away with the Marines and move those people and money over to the Army. Duplicating functions is always inefficient. Fourth, exercises in Mongolia accomplish nothing except anger China and Russia. There is no practical way Mongolia could ever be a mission base. I know there are those who want to move back to the Cold War Days, but that accomplishes nothing. Why do some want to keep us in a situation where we are forced to spend hundreds of billions on defense annually. Wouldn't it be better to establish a dialog with these countries, move away from conflict and spend some of that defense money elsewhere?
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I agree with many of your points but highly disagree with amphibious assaults being outdated, they are only outdated against third world invasions. we have fought in recent decades. Against a top tier military like russia or china, landing troops in by aircraft alone would be suicide, as would by ground, this means against such enemies you can not rely on a single method of entry and need land air and sea at various levels to move assets beyond highly defensive positions.

In many cases the amphibious assault is just the mere opening stage allowing the start of a logistics chain and staging point in a hostile area, but the starting point makes the mission possible in the first place.
 
beerftw said:
So using corporal again as an insult, It would be nice if you called me private, I have held nco positions before up to the rank of e6 but never actually had the authority to back it since I never got past e-3 since I had a thing for getting in trouble but also stayed in until an honerable discharge because I could show up on time and do my job good.

The pentagon chiefs are angry because this dips into their pet projects, many of these projects are unneccessary and through politics more than anything. If a few billion broke the military with funds that were not allocated to the pet projects they are griping about it is just political. I can see the gripes about infrastructure, that is an area trump is taking money from, for mongolia deployments it seems more like someone making excuses to gripe about funds they already did not have.

Mongolia is a democracy, however sending marines there does zero for that, or provides any benefit to anyone in either country. Mongolia in recent years has been siding with russia again, not because we were unable to send marines there for training, but because the us has slashed investment in the nation both on the govt and civilian level, while russia is increasing their investment there.
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Well corporal whether it's China or Russia, invading Mongolia should that option ever be exercised by either country's ruling elite would mean killing a couple of dozen US Marines. That's all it would take for the US to respond in some kinetic way against the offending aggressor country whichever it might be. US intelligence tracing the origin of any proxy force employed by either Moscow or Beijing would be a minor challenge to accomplish.

Any ruling elite in either Beijing or Moscow that is willing to take the risk of the consequences would presumably be prepared to kill many more US forces whether Army, Navy, more Marines, AF. It would involve a major conflict which is not in the foreseeable future, if ever.

So the presence of US Marines in Mongolia ready to fight tonight is a distinct deterrent to any military action by either Beijing or Moscow. Indeed if I were a US Marine presently in Mongolia I might feel almost as safe as a Marine would feel at Camp Pendleton. That's providing I got my training and exercises of course, which definitely is a serious problem to accomplish while Donald Trump is Potus/CinC doing his damnedest to turn Mexico into an unfriendly state at the USA border.

Imagine some Russian Marines showing up in Mexico to hang out there for an indefinite while. Or in El Salvador etc. It could be the opposite to the USA as it is to China / Moscow of US Marines in Mongolia, except for the important point being that we over here are the good guys while you over there are not.
 
Tangmo said:
Well corporal whether it's China or Russia, invading Mongolia should that option ever be exercised by either country's ruling elite would mean killing a couple of dozen US Marines. That's all it would take for the US to respond in some kinetic way against the offending aggressor country whichever it might be. US intelligence tracing the origin of any proxy force employed by either Moscow or Beijing would be a minor challenge to accomplish.

Any ruling elite in either Beijing or Moscow that is willing to take the risk of the consequences would presumably be prepared to kill many more US forces whether Army, Navy, more Marines, AF. It would involve a major conflict which is not in the foreseeable future, if ever.

So the presence of US Marines in Mongolia ready to fight tonight is a distinct deterrent to any military action by either Beijing or Moscow. Indeed if I were a US Marine presently in Mongolia I might feel almost as safe as a Marine would feel at Camp Pendleton. That's providing I got my training and exercises of course, which definitely is a serious problem to accomplish while Donald Trump is Potus/CinC doing his damnedest to turn Mexico into an unfriendly state at the USA border.

Imagine some Russian Marines showing up in Mexico to hang out there for an indefinite while. Or in El Salvador etc. It could be the opposite to the USA as it is to China / Moscow of US Marines in Mongolia, except for the important point being that we over here are the good guys while you over there are not.
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Cadet Tangmo does not understand the correct use of rank in the military of the United States.

The rest?

The normal Tangmo Babble.
 
The thread is about USMC Commandant Gen. Robert Neller telling Trump to shove his wall and tend instead to the serious business of US armed forces preparedness, morale, well being, to include their families. Neller says the deployment to the southern border is bull**** that sucks up real money for real national security interests.
 
More than any other purpose of our military it is their duty to protect our borders and territory within the United States Of America. Possibly the general lost site of that fact - and the fact that this is not his decision, it is the President's decision. If he can not function fully within the tasks he should request to be reassigned or to be allowed to resign.
 
joko104 said:
More than any other purpose of our military it is their duty to protect our borders and territory within the United States Of America. Possibly the general lost site of that fact - and the fact that this is not his decision, it is the President's decision. If he can not function fully within the tasks he should request to be reassigned or to be allowed to resign.
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Gen. Neller is a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff which are the principal uniformed advisers to Potus (and SecDef.) Chairman JCS is the chief spokesman. That means JCS can disagree with Potus/CinC. When JCS disagree publicly with Potus/CinC they do it before Congress in hearings by the Armed Services Committees. Methinks that if anyone needs to resign it has to be Trump. Or if anyone needs to be reassigned, then send Trump to Moscow.
 
Tangmo said:
The thread is about USMC Commandant Gen. Robert Neller telling Trump to shove his wall and tend instead to the serious business of US armed forces preparedness, morale, well being, to include their families. Neller says the deployment to the southern border is bull**** that sucks up real money for real national security interests.
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This thread also has a fair share of TBT.

TBT is Tangmo being Tangmo. This manifests itself in the form of Insulting both current and former members of the armed forces of the United States of America. Especially those who have served to retirement. However single tour personnel are not immune. Insults range from intentional misuse of rank, lies about education levels, knowledge of historical subject matter, etc. That and another thing is the cowardly act of replying to a poster without quoting the post.

TBT runs counter to what a real officer in the armed forces would be expected to behave and casts doubt on the claimed service.
 
Rogue Valley said:
In memos, Marine commandant says deploying troops to border poses 'unacceptable risk' to readiness

https://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.573733!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_490/image.jpg[img]
[SIZE=1]Marine Commandant Gen. Robert Neller at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing.[SIZE]



It's good to see Gen. Neller speaking out about a political policy that he feels is undermining the combat readiness of his service branch.

[B][COLOR="#008000"]Related:[COLOR] [url="https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-marine-corps-border-national-emergency-20190321-story.html"]Marine Corps commandant says deploying troops to the border poses ‘unacceptable risk’[/url][B][/QUOTE]

And its good that hes not in charge.
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Rogue Valley said:
Regardless of how they were obtained, the memos content is disturbing to say the least.

Marine Corps readiness is being compromised due to Trump aggrandizing military funds for his vanity wall, a wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for.
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The border is more important. If anything, Trump should get the Marines out of unnecessary foreign wars, which which would reduce expenses for the Marines.
 
American Isolationism has always been an absolute failure.

Isolationists themselves know this so their motivation, goals and purposes are dubious at best and suspect at the least.
 
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