• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Russia says it's going to arm a secretive submarine with 6 nuclear 'doomsday' devices

This is yet another proclamation and pronouncement that is both arbitrarily and summarily concluded and therefore wrong, wrong, wrong. Perhaps you've been relying too much on Sun Tzu who was never a conqueror. Caesar in a stark contrast was indeed a conqueror who rose to become emperor. It remains also an open question whether a person Sun Tzu ever existed. There is indeed no doubt Caesar existed. No doubt what so ever.

Ignorant opinion noted in regards to Sun Tzu. As is your general ignorance of his concepts.

It isn't like an officer to be so ignorant of military things.
 
This is yet another proclamation and pronouncement that is both arbitrarily and summarily concluded and therefore wrong, wrong, wrong. Perhaps you've been relying too much on Sun Tzu who was never a conqueror. Caesar in a stark contrast was indeed a conqueror who rose to become emperor. It remains also an open question whether a person Sun Tzu ever existed. There is indeed no doubt Caesar existed. No doubt what so ever.

That's about the sum total of your knowledge... Caesar existed and he was a conqueror. You have no concept whatsoever of the level of detail and planning and preparation had to go into his defeating Pompey. He was able to get inside Pompey's head and play him like a violin because he had been preparing for that moment for 30+ years. Just think for a moment how sublime that is. If you go back and look at the history - look at the careers of Caesar and Pompey - you can see the pattern emerging. You can watch Caesar's strategy evolve.... one step after another... until it's final culmination. The Battle of Dyrrhachium was just a microcosm moment of what is probably history's most finely-crafted mind***k.

"All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved." --- Sun Tzu
 
It's amusing that the Putin-Trump Fanboys are coming on gangbusters to say anything to try to deflect away from Putin and to avoid mentioning Putin. This includes of course certain Libertarians Right who are wrong as usual. While no one involved here disputes anything any poster has posted about Caesar, the Putin-Trump Fanboys and their boosters can't discuss Putin and his doomsday country. And while the troika of rightwing posters won't discuss Trump either, the Trump Train is all but derailed.
 
It's amusing that the Putin-Trump Fanboys are coming on gangbusters to say anything to try to deflect away from Putin and to avoid mentioning Putin. This includes of course certain Libertarians Right who are wrong as usual. While no one involved here disputes anything any poster has posted about Caesar, the Putin-Trump Fanboys and their boosters can't discuss Putin and his doomsday country. And while the troika of rightwing posters won't discuss Trump either, the Trump Train is all but derailed.

I don't know if it's escaped your notice, but you're the one who brought up Caesar. Perhaps you shouldn't make arguments you are ill-equipped to support?
 
I don't know if it's escaped your notice, but you're the one who brought up Caesar. Perhaps you shouldn't make arguments you are ill-equipped to support?

And as I noted no poster who has posted on Caesar has dissented from my shared great respect of Caesar and my advocacy of him against Sun Tzu. I noted Caesar would not have allowed Sun Tzu to prepare his battle plan, i.e., Caesar would have gone right at Sun Tzu and smashed him. Caesar defeated masters of war whose names we know where as Sun and his kingdom of Wu lost to Chinese warlords who remain unknown to history and nondescript except for the one who prevailed and whose name became the name of the new empire he created, China (Chin).

So as the mass of posters and readers are aghast at Putin's world destroying nuclear weapons development you and yours posting to the thead either ignore Putin's insanity or you and yours talk technical jibberish about it. Or you try your forever self-defeating nonsense against moi which is years on at this point.

Moreover you introduced Sun Tzu. You have tried to establish Sun as the ultimate in warfare while ignoring Sun Tzu and his state lost big time in the 7 States Wars and that Sun Tzu couldn't defeat warlords unknown to history. I reiterate that Western military commanders apply Sun Tzu better than Sun himself applied the precepts and principles that were already practiced and which he recorded. If Sun Tzu existed at all that is.
 
And as I noted no poster who has posted on Caesar has dissented from my shared great respect of Caesar and my advocacy of him against Sun Tzu. I noted Caesar would not have allowed Sun Tzu to prepare his battle plan, i.e., Caesar would have gone right at Sun Tzu and smashed him. Caesar defeated masters of war whose names we know where as Sun and his kingdom of Wu lost to Chinese warlords who remain unknown to history and nondescript except for the one who prevailed and whose name became the name of the new empire he created, China (Chin).

So as the mass of posters and readers are aghast at Putin's world destroying nuclear weapons development you and yours posting to the thead either ignore Putin's insanity or you and yours talk technical jibberish about it. Or you try your forever self-defeating nonsense against moi which is years on at this point.

Moreover you introduced Sun Tzu. You have tried to establish Sun as the ultimate in warfare while ignoring Sun Tzu and his state lost big time in the 7 States Wars and that Sun Tzu couldn't defeat warlords unknown to history. I reiterate that Western military commanders apply Sun Tzu better than Sun himself applied the precepts and principles that were already practiced and which he recorded. If Sun Tzu existed at all that is.

There's not a hair's breadth of difference between the teachings of Sun Tzu and the type of warfare waged by Caesar. Fledmaus made the same point with Genghis Khan. From the fact that choose not to contest the points that either of us put forward, I can only surmise that you are in agreement. The teachings of Sun Tzu are universally applicable across antiquity and into the modern age.

The question now is how best to apply them to the present situation with Russia.... wouldn't you agree?
 
There's not a hair's breadth of difference between the teachings of Sun Tzu and the type of warfare waged by Caesar. Fledmaus made the same point with Genghis Khan. From the fact that choose not to contest the points that either of us put forward, I can only surmise that you are in agreement. The teachings of Sun Tzu are universally applicable across antiquity and into the modern age.

The question now is how best to apply them to the present situation with Russia.... wouldn't you agree?

Genghis Kahn read Sun Tzu's collected works of the many battle commanders, tossed 'em then went out and conquered a continent called Asia. The Kahn were conquerors not book compilers of others post battle summaries which is what Sun Tzu was in fact.

I reiterate that Western military commanders apply Sun Tzu better than Sun himself applied the precepts and principles that were already practiced and which were recorded by Sun in the Thirteen Chapters. The question remains anyway whether the individual Sun Tzu existed at all, similarly to the question of Shakespeare.

As for your completely wrong assertions there isn't a dime's worth of difference between Caesar and Sun Tzu, I have pointed out definitively the manner and style of warfare of each of 'em. I say again, the two methods of waging war are radically different. The Roman mindset in general was one of permanence. Roman generals always sought finality. Destroy, assimilate, or ally with an enemy, don't simply defeat him only to meet again. The Western way of war in fact stresses contact, impact, and direct confrontation with the enemy.

The US alliance system and structures post WW II are inspired and predicated on Caesar's model of mutual and viable alliances that worked so well for Caesar in battle and for Rome and the Republic in peace and prosperity. Eastern thought, i.e., Sun Tzu's theories, taught strictly there aren't any "permanent" allies or "friends" even relatively speaking and that, rather, there are only temporary expediencies, i.e, short term and useful practicalities.

Sun Tzu stressed the indirect approach. Sun recorded the Eastern avoidance of an engagement unless in favorable circumstances. Sun recorded the Eastern practice of annoyance, misdirection, the threatening of alternate points; wearing down the enemy's willpower or morale through subterfuge, to attack only that which is weak; disperse then concentrate. So one can choose between Western war or Eastern war because one man's meat is another man's poison. You fail to see this and you fail completely and abysmally.

Indeed Caesar would never practice or allow most of the Eastern *****footing in war recorded by Sun Tzu as the standard doctrine in the East. U.S. did allow all of it however as its wrongheaded military policy in Vietnam for instance. Caesar in Vietnam would have invaded the North and done away with 'em. Or ally with 'em which is what the US has done with Vietnam anyway. Sun Tzu would still be fighting in VN to this day. And Hanoi being Asians would have reciprocated of course. With still no end in sight.

The 7 States Wars Sun participated in went on for hundreds of years, whereas in Europe a hundred years war was the exception. The US civil war was fought for four years using the modern technology of the time. And yes, while Sun Tzu continues to be applied in the present, so does Caesar. Sun would have been overwhelmed by WW II and China was in fact overrun by it and easily so. WW II showed Japan was more like Caesar and the West than it was anything like Sun Tzu and the mainland Asians. It is safe to say but for the US involvement in WW II Japan would have overrun Australia too.
 
Genghis Kahn read Sun Tzu's collected works of the many battle commanders, tossed 'em then went out and conquered a continent called Asia. The Kahn were conquerors not book compilers of others post battle summaries which is what Sun Tzu was in fact.

I reiterate that Western military commanders apply Sun Tzu better than Sun himself applied the precepts and principles that were already practiced and which were recorded by Sun in the Thirteen Chapters. The question remains anyway whether the individual Sun Tzu existed at all, similarly to the question of Shakespeare.

As for your completely wrong assertions there isn't a dime's worth of difference between Caesar and Sun Tzu, I have pointed out definitively the manner and style of warfare of each of 'em. I say again, the two methods of waging war are radically different. The Roman mindset in general was one of permanence. Roman generals always sought finality. Destroy, assimilate, or ally with an enemy, don't simply defeat him only to meet again. The Western way of war in fact stresses contact, impact, and direct confrontation with the enemy.

The US alliance system and structures post WW II are inspired and predicated on Caesar's model of mutual and viable alliances that worked so well for Caesar in battle and for Rome and the Republic in peace and prosperity. Eastern thought, i.e., Sun Tzu's theories, taught strictly there aren't any "permanent" allies or "friends" even relatively speaking and that, rather, there are only temporary expediencies, i.e, short term and useful practicalities.

Sun Tzu stressed the indirect approach. Sun recorded the Eastern avoidance of an engagement unless in favorable circumstances. Sun recorded the Eastern practice of annoyance, misdirection, the threatening of alternate points; wearing down the enemy's willpower or morale through subterfuge, to attack only that which is weak; disperse then concentrate. So one can choose between Western war or Eastern war because one man's meat is another man's poison. You fail to see this and you fail completely and abysmally.

Indeed Caesar would never practice or allow most of the Eastern *****footing in war recorded by Sun Tzu as the standard doctrine in the East. U.S. did allow all of it however as its wrongheaded military policy in Vietnam for instance. Caesar in Vietnam would have invaded the North and done away with 'em. Or ally with 'em which is what the US has done with Vietnam anyway. Sun Tzu would still be fighting in VN to this day. And Hanoi being Asians would have reciprocated of course. With still no end in sight.

The 7 States Wars Sun participated in went on for hundreds of years, whereas in Europe a hundred years war was the exception. The US civil war was fought for four years using the modern technology of the time. And yes, while Sun Tzu continues to be applied in the present, so does Caesar. Sun would have been overwhelmed by WW II and China was in fact overrun by it and easily so. WW II showed Japan was more like Caesar and the West than it was anything like Sun Tzu and the mainland Asians. It is safe to say but for the US involvement in WW II Japan would have overrun Australia too.

And another steaming pile of Tangmo Babble.....

It is interesting how Tangmo gets almost everything wrong about the application of Sun Tzus writing.

An officer would appreciate the timelessness of much of what was written back then. A non military person can be mistaken for not understanding the wisdom inherent in the texts.

A perfect example is that Sun Tzu recognized that a trapped army often fights with a desperation that an army with the ability to retreat lacks. An army that can retreat may opt for retreat rather than a staunch defense. One concept is to leave an escape route. Once the retreat begins the army may even rout. Once out of defensive positions the army is ripe for destruction as the attacker can now close down on what was thought to be a safe route out.

It happened in its purest form in the Highway to Hell in the Gulf War.

The Vietnamese studied Sun Tzu as well and we all know how that turned out.





BTW - The 7 states war post dated Sun Tzu's lifetime. So Tangmo history fail again.
 
I agree... but I sincerely doubt that the Russian military would invest a significant chunk of their limited resources on a project that would have zero practical use, using unproven technology, to do attempt something that hasn't been studied thoroughly.

Someone told me once that the Pentagon has people envisioning potential plans for nearly every scenario imaginable regarding the military. I wouldn't be surprised if this were one of them.
 
Someone told me once that the Pentagon has people envisioning potential plans for nearly every scenario imaginable regarding the military. I wouldn't be surprised if this were one of them.

I can't say one way or the other. People can imagine a lot of things.
 
I'm sure countries on a budget are interested in doing a lot of damage with a small package.

You only need to look at North Korea to see that.... but look at what they're doing - they're trying to develop both a warhead and an ICBM... and every step of the process involves extensive study and testing. We can take a pretty good guess at what they're doing, because we can read the patterns of their tests and draw conclusions from them. I just don't see any evidence of the Russians investing anything on doing the testing and research they'd need to accomplish to make this kind of program possible. Have they been experimenting with high-yield nuclear weapons? Not since the 70's. Have they been experimenting with low-yield nuclear weapons along known faultlines to try and establish proof of concept? Not that I'm aware of.

To be perfectly frank, their rhetoric and what they've "leaked" about this project doesn't match what they're actually doing.

What it does remind me of is what we did with the USS Halibut in the 1960's and 70's... with the USS Parche from the 70's until the early 2000's.... and the USS Jimmy Carter up to the present day. It's a spy boat. The Parche is reputed to be the most decorated ship in US Naval history. That's no mean feat. It should tell you something about just how useful spy submarines are in practice. I say "reputed" because pretty much all of it's missions are still classified.... but if you want to get a better idea about what exactly these boats do, just research the Halibut... and then look at the Russian plans posted earlier. Tell me you don't see the similarities.
 
Someone told me once that the Pentagon has people envisioning potential plans for nearly every scenario imaginable regarding the military. I wouldn't be surprised if this were one of them.

The military has drafted plans to invade practically every piece of dirt imaginable.

To include friendly nations.
 
As an aside for all you navy guys out there, here's a picture of the Parche's sail at her decommissioning ceremony:

0868309.jpg

If you know what the decorations mean, you know that this boat has been through some hard service.
 
The military has drafted plans to invade practically every piece of dirt imaginable.

To include friendly nations.

Of course they have, which is what they should do.

I see nothing wrong with any nation drafting such plans, and would find it almost criminally negligent if they were not to do so. But there is a huge difference between drafting plans, and trying to implement them.

Most people tend to forget that most of our plans against Japan in WWII were part of war plans created after WWI. And Japan was our ally in that war.
 
The Russian "Poseidon" nuclear-powered torpedo - reputed to carry a 100 megaton to 200 megaton nuclear warhead and meant to erupt underwater for maximum effect - will reportedly deploy aboard the Project 09852 sub Belgorod, which is a converted nuclear-powered cruise-missile sub expected to go on combat duty in 2020.

And sorry, I am calling "coprolite" on this claim.

The largest nuclear bomb ever detonated was done by the Soviet Union. The "Tsar Bomb" was a massive 50 megaton device, that weighed in at over 30 tons. The bomb was so massive that the Tu-95 had to have it's bomb bay doors removed in order to carry it.

And we are supposed to believe something 2-4 times larger is going to be launched on a cruise missile?

Yea, can see who drinks the Kool-Aid in here.
 
As an aside for all you navy guys out there, here's a picture of the Parche's sail at her decommissioning ceremony:

View attachment 67252799

If you know what the decorations mean, you know that this boat has been through some hard service.

A boat can get the engineering "E" without going through hard service.

These awards are meant for command excellence and are mostly administrative..........not hard service.

The engineering "E" and the damage control "E" are the most difficult of all of them.
 
A boat can get the engineering "E" without going through hard service.

These awards are meant for command excellence and are mostly administrative..........not hard service.

The engineering "E" and the damage control "E" are the most difficult of all of them.

You can't really see the ribbon clearly from the pic, but I figure the 9 Presidential Unit Citations would be pretty difficult.
 
You can't really see the ribbon clearly from the pic, but I figure the 9 Presidential Unit Citations would be pretty difficult.

Her biggest claim to fame is tapping into Soviet communication lines and finding Soviet sub remains.

Other than that, I could never figure out why the Pentagon laid so much affection on her. I wish they would declassify the missions that her crew went on just to understand the 9 PUC's.

She had a fairly quiet life compared other subs that were out there in the Atlantic messing with Crazy Ivan on a more routine basis.

I'm not knocking the boat and the guys that crewed her........ as I am more curious than anything else.
 
Her biggest claim to fame is tapping into Soviet communication lines and finding Soviet sub remains.

Other than that, I could never figure out why the Pentagon laid so much affection on her. I wish they would declassify the missions that her crew went on just to understand the 9 PUC's.

She had a fairly quiet life compared other subs that were out there in the Atlantic messing with Crazy Ivan on a more routine basis.

I'm not knocking the boat and the guys that crewed her........ as I am more curious than anything else.

You want to know the best way I know to figure out classified information like that? Try putting yourself in the shoes of the Russian Rear Admiral doing contingency planning today.... and some Lt. (JG) on your staff comes up with a crazy off-the-wall plan for a sub mission that you should have the fleet be on guard for. What are the kind of things that would make you go, "Naw, that's impossible"? Because over on the other side of the ocean, I can pretty much guarantee someone else looked at that same idea within the last 20-40 years and thought "How can we make this happen?"

Nothing is new under the sun... or the surf.
 
Doctor Strangelove was a great movie.... another good one that addressed some of the same themes from the same time period was The Bedford Incident - Richard Widmark and Sidney Poitier (even a small cameo by Donald Sutherland) How can you go wrong? I just kind of take Independence Day (and John Wayne films in general) for what they are... good entertainment without all that many intellectual strings attached.

Bedford incident. Awesome movie.
 
Back
Top Bottom