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America begs China to avoid confrontations

DaveFagan said:
Upon further review, I can conclude from your avatar that you may fall into the same category of Great Americans like "Sh*tty Pants" Ted Nugent, "Bone Spurs" Trump, "Darth" Cheney and others, typically draft dodgers, frauds, and/or cowards, that unfailingly wear that flag wavin' lapel pin to rebuke reality.
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Interesting because I think of you as Mr. Jane Fonda. You've since been doing everything she did back then and more yet. A big difference is that the dingbat apologized if only after a continuing national reprobation and condemnation. You and Comrade OP combined -- two geniuses indeed.

The danger here is that we don't know if Trump's China advisers who want diplomatic recognition of Taiwan as a sovereign nation state de jure are on the same page as Admiral Richardson who said in Beijing this week the status quo rules.

Trump's China advisers such as John Bolton have not contradicted Adm. Richardson -- who is chief of the USN -- but they haven't endorsed Richardson's statements either. At least up to the moment. Given the track record of Trump's China hawk advisors as wanting diplomatic recognition and damn the torpedoes, we don't know clearly or definitively what's going on in the administration in these respects. That it's of no concern to you among others hostile toward the United States is noted of course.
 
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Tangmo said:
Zhou Enlai was Mao's prime minister. Your post erroneously refers to Zhou Enlai as Chou en Lai which is not an accurate transliteration of the name either. Transliteration is of course the spelling in English based on the phonics of each the Chinese and English languages respectively.

Chiang Kai Shek lost the civil war against Mao and relocated to Formosa, i.e., Taiwan, aka Republic of China. Chiang took his Guomintang party with him to Taiwan. Chiang would roll over in his tomb however knowing the Guomintang is now the pro Beijing party.

The current government is by the Democratic Progressive Party which never recognized the "One country, two systems" agreement between Beijing and the GMT in 1992. DPP recognizes one country one system which is the Taipei parlimentary system of democracy and independence from the mainland. The present is the first time voters on Taiwan have given the DPP control of both the presidency and the parliament (which is unicameral). The vast majority on Taiwan want nothing to do with the CCP Dictator-Tyrants in Beijing. Even the Guomintang has backed off its pro Beijing posture concerning unification under Beijing given the party has been blown out of office throughout the island, to include losing the mayor election in Taipei for the first time.

There have been three "Taiwan Strait Crises" since Chiang and his followers settled Taiwan, each one initiated by Beijing and each one of 'em cut off at the knees by Washington. The third crisis was in 1996 when Beijing spent weeks lobbing missiles into the strait in the runup to the island's first democratic election of the president. Potus Clinton sent two aircraft carrier strike groups to the strait forcing Beijing to cease firing. The strait's been quiet since but Beijing remains hyper to this day to get some USN aircraft carrier trophies. Presently peace doesn't have much chance in the standoff because Emperor for Life Xi Jinpingpong has vowed to incorporate Taiwain into the mainland during his rule. Stay tuned because all of Trump's China advisors to include John Bolton are old Taiwan hands. After being exiled in Washington for decades the Taiwan independence guys have Trump's ear and they want diplomatic relations yesterday. You know of course Trump himself hates China.
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Many thanks to the OP for that very informative post.

1. The Chinese were exhausted after World War II, so they let the Reds win.


2. For about 10 years, the Reds DID do good work.


3. Then, like all dictatorships, power went to Mao's head, and the Chinese people suffered terribly.


4. Meanwhile on Taiwan (Formosa), the Republic of China under Chiang Kai-Shek was raising the standard of living for the island's inhabitants.


5. After Chiang's death, his son slowly introduced democracy.

6. Let's all hope that the United States guarantees the de facto independence of Taiwan. The Taiwanese people, of course, do not want to be ruled by Emperor Xi and his gang.

a. Many Hong Kongers cheered when China resumed sovereignty in the 1990s. Today some Hong Kongers wish the British were still in control.
 
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DaveFagan said:
Upon further review, I can conclude from your avatar that you may fall into the same category of Great Americans like "Sh*tty Pants" Ted Nugent, "Bone Spurs" Trump, "Darth" Cheney and others, typically draft dodgers, frauds, and/or cowards, that unfailingly wear that flag wavin' lapel pin to rebuke reality.
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Well what's missing here is the great ole profit motive. The US capitalist wants both access to the vast chinese market and...

their virtual slave labor.

So if push came to shove, US elites and their hirelings in the WH and congress will throw Taiwan under the bus.
 
Pedestrian said:
Well what's missing here is the great ole profit motive. The US capitalist wants both access to the vast chinese market and...

their virtual slave labor.

So if push came to shove, US elites and their hirelings in the WH and congress will throw Taiwan under the bus.
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That's a capital and intellectually prescient thought. Capitalism/Corporatism would surely embrace slave/cheap labor. Do you surmise that Taiwan has given that thought due consideration? It's a Corporatist island and an alliance with China would certainly present instant opportunity and perhaps Taiwan would throw the USA under the bus. What thinkest thou?
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cabse5 said:
Or, maybe, China will be willing to talk? As a bonus, maybe China will ease off on some of their tariffs against American exports (which could bolster American workers and jobs). If anything else, you must agree China is evil and menacing and someone must bring them to bear.
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Taxing the American consumer is not the answer to bringing China "to bear". It is a recipe for economic disaster.
 
Pedestrian said:
Well what's missing here is the great ole profit motive. The US capitalist wants both access to the vast chinese market and...

their virtual slave labor.

So if push came to shove, US elites and their hirelings in the WH and congress will throw Taiwan under the bus.
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Why are Conservatives so clueless? Do you even know that GM sells more cars in China than the U.S? "Slaves" cant afford to buy cars. China has the fastest growing middle class in the world.

The American consumer has been a central driver of the global economy for decades. Fortunately for the overburdened American consumer, China's middle class is going to be picking up more of the slack.
China's middle class is on fire. According to a study by consulting firm McKinsey & Company, 76 percent of China's urban population will be considered middle class by 2022. That's defined as urban households that earn US$9,000 - US$34,000 a year. (That might not sound like a lot, but adjusted for prices, it delivers a roughly comparable "middle class" existence to other countries.) In 2000, just 4 percent of the urban population was considered middle class.
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https://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-middle-class-is-exploding-2016-8
 
bongsaway said:
Fantastic, now you and trump both know more than anyone, even the admirals since we're talking navy.
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Look at all of the wreckage of America, administered by the so-called experts as the citizens abdicated our management responsibilities.
 
TheParser said:
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1. The Chinese were exhausted after World War II, so they let the Reds win.
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Here is the funniest part.

The "Reds" won, and lost.

Both the RoC and PRC recognize Sun Yat-Sen as their founder. Both governments were Socialist. Sun was a Socialist.

The only real difference is that one factions (PRC) were International Socialists (Marxist Communist), and the others were National Socialists. So technically, both were "Red".

One group was simply more red than the other one was.

And for the common Chinese peasant, all they had ever known was that they had to do what the people with the guns told them to do. Be it the Emperors, the Republic of China soldiers, the Japanese Soldiers, the ROC-PRC soldiers. By and large they really did not care. Just so they were left with enough to continue with their toil the next year.
 
The giant air base on my commute has been running a skeleton crew for a month. So, I imagine the navy is in the same boat. That certainly won’t help our strategic position any moving forward.
 
Oozlefinch said:
Here is the funniest part.

The "Reds" won, and lost.

Both the RoC and PRC recognize Sun Yat-Sen as their founder. Both governments were Socialist. Sun was a Socialist.

The only real difference is that one factions (PRC) were International Socialists (Marxist Communist), and the others were National Socialists. So technically, both were "Red".

One group was simply more red than the other one was.

And for the common Chinese peasant, all they had ever known was that they had to do what the people with the guns told them to do. Be it the Emperors, the Republic of China soldiers, the Japanese Soldiers, the ROC-PRC soldiers. By and large they really did not care. Just so they were left with enough to continue with their toil the next year.
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National socialists are fascists.

Chiang Kai Shek picked up from the democratic socialist Sun Yat Sen after the M.D. Sun's death in 1923 from liver cancer. Sun's two years as president of the republic (1910-1912) are the only instance of a democratically elected national government in China's 5000 year history. Sun got run out of office by yet another malicious warlord named Yuan of which there were many as there always have been many warlords in China. They're a dime a dozen over there. Nor would a red allow himself to be enabled by a popular election that is a direct plebiscite besides, regardless of whether such a highly suspect event could in fact happen.

Chiang was a fascist through and through yet to the US it became an early instance of Chiang being our fascist. Back then US played both sides of the fence, having people in the inner circle of each Chiang and Mao. During WW II it was the OSS that solidified US contact with each leader.

Neither Chiang nor Mao wanted to engage the Japanese invaders/occupiers for fear it would weaken his force for the coming head to head fight after the war. Chiang was more accommodating to Washington in that he fought the Japanese more than Mao. But Chiang engaged the Japanese for the obvious reason he represented the urban population which was the principal target of the Japanese. Mao represented the vast countryside where the Japanese did not waste their resources. A direct consequence was that after the war the peasants were better prepared to propel Mao into power than the devastated urban middle classes were to supply and support their guy Chiang.

We see presently what happens to a country when its peasant areas find their leader. Mao's leaders were peasants indeed while Chiang's elites were urbane and fellow military academy graduates. It was the old question of who came to win and it was always going to be Mao and his Chinese who had the passion, endurance and the fierce determination. Neither Mao nor Chiang was a democrat -- not by a long shot. On that account there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between 'em.
 
DaveFagan said:
That's a capital and intellectually prescient thought. Capitalism/Corporatism would surely embrace slave/cheap labor. Do you surmise that Taiwan has given that thought due consideration? It's a Corporatist island and an alliance with China would certainly present instant opportunity and perhaps Taiwan would throw the USA under the bus. What thinkest thou?
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Well Taiwan is a democracy and continually modifying their labor laws and have a minimum wage, worker safety and protection among other

such attributes of the western labor markets and this labor is richer and much more robustly compensated.

The Taiwanese govt. wouldn't get away with it.


The only incentive for Taiwan to officially jump in bed with China would be to do the same, elites skimming million$ off cheaper

labor for the west whose capitalist, has already long since exploited...without a move to China.

If Taiwan learns and they have, Hong Kong would much prefer to be back under British rule.
 
iguanaman said:
Why are Conservatives so clueless? Do you even know that GM sells more cars in China than the U.S? "Slaves" cant afford to buy cars. China has the fastest growing middle class in the world.



https://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-middle-class-is-exploding-2016-8
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First, I wrote that the western capitalist wants both, including the Chinese market.

Don't see how this is a liberal or conservative recognition problem at all.

Easy to have the fastest growing middle class when out of a billion plus, there was none until recently and the Chinese

middle class and until 2022 when surpassing the US, will be $9,000 TO $34,000/yr. (GM 15% drop in dales 2017)

Slaves can buy a car if financed over 5-7 years.
 
Pedestrian said:
First, I wrote that the western capitalist wants both, including the Chinese market.

Don't see how this is a liberal or conservative recognition problem at all.

Easy to have the fastest growing middle class when out of a billion plus, there was none until recently and the Chinese

middle class and until 2022 when surpassing the US, will be $9,000 TO $34,000/yr. (GM 15% drop in dales 2017)

Slaves can buy a car if financed over 5-7 years.
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LOL Yes the American worker has proven that slaves can buy cars if you finance them too. The truth is that in the cities, China's median wages are higher the some E.U. countries and many of the new jobs in the U..S and their cost of living is much lower.
China-Like Wages Now Part Of U.S. Employment Boom
The lowest paid workers in that warehouse, assuming 30 hours per week, would earn around $18,000 annually, or roughly $7,200 more than the median Chinese worker; a country where people still survive on $2,000 a year.
Compared to the median wages in Beijing, a rich part of China, that $14.75 an hour hire working 30 hours a week is earning $442.50 versus Beijing's median wage of $329.53 per week. The fork lift operator at $12.75 is making $382, not much more the average guy in Beijing.
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2017/08/04/china-like-wages-now-part-of-u-s-employment-boom/#628b2b1e128a
 
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As I noted in scrolling the vast majority of Taiwan people identify as Taiwanese, just as the great number of people in Hong Kong identify as Hongkongers. Neither want anything to do with Beijing and their rule.

In Taiwan the ruling Democratic Progressive Party has won control of the presidency and the parliament for the first time. DPP has never recognized the 1992 agreement on "one country, two systems" between Beijing and the then governing Guomintang. DPP favors de facto sovereignty. Advocates in HKG of sovereignty have been locked up and also ejected from their elected seats on the legislative council.


hong-kong-protest.jpg

Hong Kong colonial flags are waved by demonstrators Reuters



hong-kong-protest.jpg

Demonstrators demanded universal suffrage and urged Hong Kong's chief executive Leung Chun-ying to step down Reuters

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/hong-kong-protest-china-britain-leung-cy-485236
 
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