Why not use the M16 rifle cartridge for all USA military rifles?

beerftw said:

You can not make up your mind, you talk about such then brag about iraq then brag about c rats and 20 round mags with a1 m-16s, you seem to fool no one. Fyi the prone position is very vital, and has been ever since the military moved away from volley fire n the civil war. Also those ceramic body armors are terrible pat one shot, ceramic shatters, and the idea behind them was even one shot survived meant that soldier stayed in the battle, they are not invincible, and would fail fairly quickly in he prone to ak-47 fire if they kept themselves a ready target bu standing up or kneeling, the purpose of prone was to minimise visible area that could be hit by enemy fire and by shrapnel from grenades or artilery.

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You can't seem to remember our conversations correctly- find where I 'bragged' about Iraq.... I'll wait.

You were in what firefights??? You did how many combat patrols or trained to be an 11Bush where???

When did you test ceramic plates??? The plates I shot took multiple rounds and are in addition to the standard body armor underneath. Perhaps you should have read Ozzlefish's post before claiming any ex-spurt-ese... :roll:

From all your 'battle' experience in Iraq, just how many times did you have to defend your motor pool while the bad guys used atry???

Because you have no clue, when it comes to grenades the body armor pretty much protects the soldier in the kneeling position as laying down from frag. But then again I didn't say stand up while a dozen bad guys hose you down with fire, do try and be practical... :doh

But back to the post civil war experience- the Army didn't fail to adopt lever actions because of issues in the prone firing position, they didn't want to pay for them when thousands of old muzzleloaders could be far cheaper to convert to breechloading.... :roll:

Might want to stick to mechanicin', and drinking beer for the win... eace

beerftw said:

You can not make up your mind, you talk about such then brag about iraq then brag about c rats and 20 round mags with a1 m-16s, you seem to fool no one. Fyi the prone position is very vital, and has been ever since the military moved away from volley fire n the civil war.

Also those ceramic body armors are terrible pat one shot, ceramic shatters, and the idea behind them was even one shot survived meant that soldier stayed in the battle, they are not invincible, and would fail fairly quickly in he prone to ak-47 fire if they kept themselves a ready target bu standing up or kneeling, the purpose of prone was to minimise visible area that could be hit by enemy fire and by shrapnel from grenades or artilery.

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Not sure where you are getting your information from but the ceramic SAPI and the newer ESAPI plates are all designed to stop a minimum of 3 rounds for the caliber they are designed for. So SAPI. It's 7.62 M 80 ball and ESAPI it's 30 Cal AP.

braindrain said:

Not sure where you are getting your information from but the ceramic SAPI and the newer ESAPI plates are all designed to stop a minimum of 3 rounds for the caliber they are designed for. So SAPI. It's 7.62 M 80 ball and ESAPI it's 30 Cal AP.

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ESAPI is an NIJ Level IV hard body plate. In order to get that certification, it must be able to withstand at least 1 hit of .30 AP ammunition.

That plate is also certified to withstand up to 6 hits of lesser power ammunition, so long as the hits are at least as far apart as the 1.5 times thickness of the plate (in this case .9"). The closer each hit is to the other, the more likely the armor is to fail prematurely.

So if an individual is hit with standard ball type 7.62 or 5.56 ammunition, the plate should withstand at least 6 hits, so long as each hit is at least 1.5 inches apart from each other.

And even if the plate was to fail, it and the Kevlar armor itself will still protect the wearer and reduce injuries.

To give an idea how well this armor can work, consider the following video.



This should give anybody who questions these plates an actual idea how much punishment they can take.

Oozlefinch said:

ESAPI is an NIJ Level IV hard body plate. In order to get that certification, it must be able to withstand at least 1 hit of .30 AP ammunition.

That plate is also certified to withstand up to 6 hits of lesser power ammunition, so long as the hits are at least as far apart as the 1.5 times thickness of the plate (in this case .9"). The closer each hit is to the other, the more likely the armor is to fail prematurely.

So if an individual is hit with standard ball type 7.62 or 5.56 ammunition, the plate should withstand at least 6 hits, so long as each hit is at least 1.5 inches apart from each other.

And even if the plate was to fail, it and the Kevlar armor itself will still protect the wearer and reduce injuries.

To give an idea how well this armor can work, consider the following video.



This should give anybody who questions these plates an actual idea how much punishment they can take.

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Yeah I have seen ESAPI plates take some serious damage down range and keep folks alive. For someone to claim they shatter after one hit shoes a rather large lack of knowledge in the subject

braindrain said:

Not sure where you are getting your information from but the ceramic SAPI and the newer ESAPI plates are all designed to stop a minimum of 3 rounds for the caliber they are designed for. So SAPI. It's 7.62 M 80 ball and ESAPI it's 30 Cal AP.

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They are designed to stop a single 7.62 ap, any thing beyond that is luck, They are ceramic plates with kevlar backing, and yes even with smaller shots the ceramic does shatter, how many shots taken after that depend on how much it shatters and how well the fragmented ceramic can still absorb energy combined with the kevlar. Besides the ceramic plate shattering, the kevlar plates spinter as well, and the ceramic can crack or shatter just from being dropped on the ground, I know this because we had to turn in our plates from our iotvs for replacements, and almost all of them were cracked, and the cracks were from soldiers pranking eachother by pulling the release tabs making them have to put their armor back together.


Ceramic is a fragile yet strong material, and it holds limitations, so if you want a precise answer it would be where in the armor it was shot, how big the fragmentation on the kevlar portion of the plate, and where the next shot hit, for all realistic purposes that is safe for one shot.

notquiteright said:

You can't seem to remember our conversations correctly- find where I 'bragged' about Iraq.... I'll wait.

You were in what firefights??? You did how many combat patrols or trained to be an 11Bush where???

When did you test ceramic plates??? The plates I shot took multiple rounds and are in addition to the standard body armor underneath. Perhaps you should have read Ozzlefish's post before claiming any ex-spurt-ese... :roll:

From all your 'battle' experience in Iraq, just how many times did you have to defend your motor pool while the bad guys used atry???

Because you have no clue, when it comes to grenades the body armor pretty much protects the soldier in the kneeling position as laying down from frag. But then again I didn't say stand up while a dozen bad guys hose you down with fire, do try and be practical... :doh

But back to the post civil war experience- the Army didn't fail to adopt lever actions because of issues in the prone firing position, they didn't want to pay for them when thousands of old muzzleloaders could be far cheaper to convert to breechloading.... :roll:

Might want to stick to mechanicin', and drinking beer for the win... eace

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I was in afghanistan not iraq, and if I remember correct you were talking about iraq in another thread and I called you out then for claiming to be in vietnam then in iraq in which you did not respond but left the thread.

Let me ask you this, when did you get ceramic plates, the era you claimed to be a soldier in used flac vests, not ceramic plates, which used kevlar or metal plates not ceramic, and besides that flac vests were piss por at stopping bullets to begin with, they were designed mainly to protect against shrapnel.

I doubt you understand fragmentation grenades if you think kneeling protects you, the lower you are the less area of coverage that can hit your body, it works the same with mortars bullets etc, the lower you stay the better the odds. Besides that fragmentation grenades can injure or kill for quite a distance, but if you are in the kill zone of a grenade you are having a bad day no matter what armor you are wearing.


Why would anyone stand while a dozen bad guys hose you down, infact there should not be any situation like that to begin with, reaction should be based on the threat and the most reasonable course of action that can be decided in a split second. In long to medium range engagements the prone would be king, in short range engagements progressing forward and engagement may be more practical, as staying defensive means the enemy can exploit the suppressive fire to move in on your position.


Excess rifles to convert aside, they refused to adopt the lever in any official capacity because it could not be used in the prone.

beerftw said:

They are designed to stop a single 7.62 ap, any thing beyond that is luck, They are ceramic plates with kevlar backing, and yes even with smaller shots the ceramic does shatter, how many shots taken after that depend on how much it shatters and how well the fragmented ceramic can still absorb energy combined with the kevlar. Besides the ceramic plate shattering, the kevlar plates spinter as well, and the ceramic can crack or shatter just from being dropped on the ground, I know this because we had to turn in our plates from our iotvs for replacements, and almost all of them were cracked, and the cracks were from soldiers pranking eachother by pulling the release tabs making them have to put their armor back together.


Ceramic is a fragile yet strong material, and it holds limitations, so if you want a precise answer it would be where in the armor it was shot, how big the fragmentation on the kevlar portion of the plate, and where the next shot hit, for all realistic purposes that is safe for one shot.

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You are getting some bad info from somewhere because virtually everything you just said is wrong.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Arms_Protective_Insert

Military testing calls for survivability of three hits from the round marked on the plate - for standard SAPI, of a caliber up to 7.62×51mm NATO M80 ball and of a muzzle velocity up to 2,750 ft/s (840 m/s). For ESAPI, a .30cal M2 AP (.30-06 black-tip armor-piercing) cartridge.

I have to ask one more question. Do you guy consider at least my M16A1 chambered in .300 Winchester Magnum to be a good idea? I think that thing would be a beast.

Moderate71 said:

I have to ask one more question. Do you guy consider at least my M16A1 chambered in .300 Winchester Magnum to be a good idea? I think that thing would be a beast.

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Do you actually read what others post and understand it?

Reasons are given for the various cartridges and their purposes.

beerftw said:

They are designed to stop a single 7.62 ap

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And who uses AP (Armor Piercing) rounds in combat?

Nobody does, unless maybe they are in a fixed position and might have to defend against light trucks. But that is still almost never done, that is what the .50 cal is used for.

In all my years in the military, I never saw 5.56mm or 7.62mm AP rounds. They are so very rarely issued that they are almost a myth. So why even bring this up?

Oozlefinch said:

And who uses AP (Armor Piercing) rounds in combat?

Nobody does, unless maybe they are in a fixed position and might have to defend against light trucks. But that is still almost never done, that is what the .50 cal is used for.

In all my years in the military, I never saw 5.56mm or 7.62mm AP rounds. They are so very rarely issued that they are almost a myth. So why even bring this up?

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I actually saw 7.62mm AP... At a swap meet.

Standard load out for M 134 mini gun and M240 was Ball and tracer...

EMNofSeattle said:

Because in those applications the .223 round is too light and has too short a range

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Bingo!

AND, BTW, 5.56 Nato is not == to .223, don't fire 5.56 in a rifle designed for .223. You can fire .223 in 5.56 rifles. Just fyi.

Oozlefinch said:

And who uses AP (Armor Piercing) rounds in combat?

Nobody does, unless maybe they are in a fixed position and might have to defend against light trucks. But that is still almost never done, that is what the .50 cal is used for.

In all my years in the military, I never saw 5.56mm or 7.62mm AP rounds. They are so very rarely issued that they are almost a myth. So why even bring this up?

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Technically standard ak-47 rounds count as armor piercing, due to their harder steel core that is larger than most steel cores, but this also varies on the nation of production like china uses a smaller soft steel core to control expansion. The us army in ww2 widely issued armor piecing 30-06 because it was cheaper to produce than standard ammo, as hardened steel cores with full metal jacket was cheaper to aquire than lead with full metal jackets. The reason armor piecing is not widely used is because hard steel and other cores have poor expansion rates against flesh, while soft lead expands more and soft steel cores like the military green tip offer all around better performance for what the actual soldier will need.


Now even though older surplus ak rounds count as armor piercing, they lack the punch to really pierce any effective armor, as it was an intermediate round and most likely the hard large steel core was never intended to be armor piercing but rather to be cheap to produce with cheaper materials. As far as actual designated armor piercing designed for that task, I only saw what 10th mountain would bring back from their patrols, usually the only purpose built armor piercing they confiscated from the bad guys was 7.62x54r intended to be fired from dragunov rifles.


As far as armor piercing you are correct, they are not widely used by any functional military in wide issue anymore, even russias ak-47 hard steel core rounds mostly sit in storage with their akm rifles, their newer designs and ammo work better and their old junk was made to fill the ranks of a massive army with limited recources.

braindrain said:

You are getting some bad info from somewhere because virtually everything you just said is wrong.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Arms_Protective_Insert

Military testing calls for survivability of three hits from the round marked on the plate - for standard SAPI, of a caliber up to 7.62×51mm NATO M80 ball and of a muzzle velocity up to 2,750 ft/s (840 m/s). For ESAPI, a .30cal M2 AP (.30-06 black-tip armor-piercing) cartridge.

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Ok so one round vs 3, fyi read your own link before you open your mouth, your own link says the ceramic shatters, proving me right, however you seem to be the only one correct on rounds tested, either way you are saying it is all wrong then post a link proving most of what I said.

The only real thing new in your link I had no idea of was spectra being used on the newest versions, I have not worn a version backed with spectra, nor had the opportunity to test fire on it, so I have no idea how it fairs vs the kevlar backed ceramic plates.

beerftw said:

Ok so one round vs 3, fyi read your own link before you open your mouth, your own link says the ceramic shatters, proving me right, however you seem to be the only one correct on rounds tested, either way you are saying it is all wrong then post a link proving most of what I said.

The only real thing new in your link I had no idea of was spectra being used on the newest versions, I have not worn a version backed with spectra, nor had the opportunity to test fire on it, so I have no idea how it fairs vs the kevlar backed ceramic plates.

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It shatters but can still at a minimum stop two more rounds. The entire main theme of you claim was that ceramic plates are only good at stopping one round. You don't need to get all pissy just because I proved you wrong.

braindrain said:

It shatters but can still at a minimum stop two more rounds. The entire main theme of you claim was that ceramic plates are only good at stopping one round. You don't need to get all pissy just because I proved you wrong.

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But they are guaranteed to stop only one round not atleast two, each round after the first hitting the plate depend on how far it hits from the shatter, and the type of round used, as rounds that deliver more energy will damage a bigger area of the ceramic. I am not arguing the armor is useless, but one round is the safe bet, anything past that is hoping you do not get hit near the same area, but they are miles ahead of the flac vests and pasgt fragmentation armors which were piss poor at stopping any bullets as they were never designed to.

Carjosse said:

It is a fundamentally different application. Olympic shooters are just trying to hit a target x metres away, in the military the distances can vary wildly, and you also need need to things like stopping power.

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There is no single round that is good for all applications. It is just that simple.

beerftw said:

But they are guaranteed to stop only one round not atleast two, each round after the first hitting the plate depend on how far it hits from the shatter, and the type of round used, as rounds that deliver more energy will damage a bigger area of the ceramic. I am not arguing the armor is useless, but one round is the safe bet, anything past that is hoping you do not get hit near the same area, but they are miles ahead of the flac vests and pasgt fragmentation armors which were piss poor at stopping any bullets as they were never designed to.

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A flack vest or jacket was designed to stop flack. At that time we did not have anything practical that could stop a rifle or machine gun round. The flack jacket saved a lot of men from flying debris on the battlefield. I would still wear one in battle vs nothing.

PIPEWRENCH said:

A flack vest or jacket was designed to stop flack. At that time we did not have anything practical that could stop a rifle or machine gun round. The flack jacket saved a lot of men from flying debris on the battlefield. I would still wear one in battle vs nothing.

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The flac vest was good for shrapnel, I believe it's original design was for pilots not from anti aircraft fire but from the shrapnel flying through their cockpit when getting hit they were also very effective against grenade shrapnel.

beerftw said:

The flac vest was good for shrapnel, I believe it's original design was for pilots not from anti aircraft fire but from the shrapnel flying through their cockpit when getting hit they were also very effective against grenade shrapnel.

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Plus they were warm. I was issued a flack jacket in 1977 as an MP. We would put them on whenever we were breaking up fights or dealing with violent people. They were effective against beer bottles and punches. We had some of the first Kevlar jackets and helmets.

PIPEWRENCH said:

Plus they were warm. I was issued a flack jacket in 1977 as an MP. We would put them on whenever we were breaking up fights or dealing with violent people. They were effective against beer bottles and punches. We had some of the first Kevlar jackets and helmets.

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My cousin had an aftermaket armor from vietnam, it was nothing more than than chainmail on steroids that some companies sold to soldiers. That armor worked good at stopping shrapnel and other things, but I can see why the army pushed the flac vest, for one any extra protection is better than none, and two soldiers buying their own armor is a bad idea, heck the chainmail on steroids might even stop handgun rounds, but will probably kill you faster anyways when the enemy hears the jingle.

Now we have ceramic plates, spectra, and dragon scales, as well as many other armors available, no armor is invincible but every shot survived or every fragment that does not kill a soldier is a victory.