• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

Litwin

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
33,607
Reaction score
5,193
Location
GDL/Sweden
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
" country" is in no position to wage a real conflict." +1,
comments ?

"The week-long exercises, which kicked off yesterday, are intended as a show of might. But the country is in no position to wage a real conflict....

Vostok is not just a big military-training drill—it’s a massive psychological-warfare operation and a geopolitical gambit, being undertaken by Russia as it regains much of its martial mojo and its ability to mount and coordinate complex operations.

That said, there’s a difference between showing off your hardware and testing your new tactics, and actually going to war. We shouldn’t assume that Russia actually wants to fight some major conflict. If nothing else, while Vostok’s scale shows that Moscow has regained the capacity for a continental-scale operation, it could hardly afford to fight one for real. It would have a hard time mustering this kind of army during wartime, when railway lines and communication hubs would be primary targets.


This exercise is part of what I have called “heavy-metal diplomacy”: Russia’s use of its military to overawe and misdirect the West. We’ve seen this kind of undiplomatic diplomacy at work in Europe, where Moscow has responded to debates in Sweden and Finland about joining NATO with war games simulating Russian invasions. We also see this sort of diplomacy at work in the numbers game Vladimir Putin plays. In last year’s Zapad war games, Moscow lowballed the number of soldiers participating in order to keep it below the ceiling at which Western countries would be able to send inspectors under Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe rules. This time around, the Russians seem happy to play up those numbers. But the much-hyped 300,000 figure involves much false accounting—in practice, the real figure may well be closer to 150,000, which is admittedly still an impressive tally. Judging from past examples like Zapad, many of these soldiers are unlikely to leave their barracks. They’ll be “involved” in exercises at the command post, not ones out in the field." https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...9/russia-vostok-putin-army-china-nato/570034/
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

" country" is in no position to wage a real conflict." +1,
comments ?

"The week-long exercises, which kicked off yesterday, are intended as a show of might. But the country is in no position to wage a real conflict....

Vostok is not just a big military-training drill—it’s a massive psychological-warfare operation and a geopolitical gambit, being undertaken by Russia as it regains much of its martial mojo and its ability to mount and coordinate complex operations.

That said, there’s a difference between showing off your hardware and testing your new tactics, and actually going to war. We shouldn’t assume that Russia actually wants to fight some major conflict. If nothing else, while Vostok’s scale shows that Moscow has regained the capacity for a continental-scale operation, it could hardly afford to fight one for real. It would have a hard time mustering this kind of army during wartime, when railway lines and communication hubs would be primary targets.


This exercise is part of what I have called “heavy-metal diplomacy”: Russia’s use of its military to overawe and misdirect the West. We’ve seen this kind of undiplomatic diplomacy at work in Europe, where Moscow has responded to debates in Sweden and Finland about joining NATO with war games simulating Russian invasions. We also see this sort of diplomacy at work in the numbers game Vladimir Putin plays. In last year’s Zapad war games, Moscow lowballed the number of soldiers participating in order to keep it below the ceiling at which Western countries would be able to send inspectors under Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe rules. This time around, the Russians seem happy to play up those numbers. But the much-hyped 300,000 figure involves much false accounting—in practice, the real figure may well be closer to 150,000, which is admittedly still an impressive tally. Judging from past examples like Zapad, many of these soldiers are unlikely to leave their barracks. They’ll be “involved” in exercises at the command post, not ones out in the field." https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...9/russia-vostok-putin-army-china-nato/570034/

We got our asses kicked in Iraq and Afghanistan by a bunch of rag tags running around in sandals...………. and you believe that Russia isn't a serious threat when metal meets the bone?
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

Never underestimate your opponent - Sun Tzu
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

We got our asses kicked in Iraq and Afghanistan by a bunch of rag tags running around in sandals...………. and you believe that Russia isn't a serious threat when metal meets the bone?

We did not get our asses kicked in Iraq an Afghanistan. Yes, we had setbacks and casualties but we did not get our asses kicked.
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

I'm serving in USAREUR and I'm never going to make the mistake of underestimating the enemy. They are a threat that need to be taken seriously.
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

We got our asses kicked in Iraq and Afghanistan by a bunch of rag tags running around in sandals...………. and you believe that Russia isn't a serious threat when metal meets the bone?

That is simply not true, or more like alternate reality talk.
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

We got our asses kicked in Iraq and Afghanistan by a bunch of rag tags running around in sandals...………. and you believe that Russia isn't a serious threat when metal meets the bone?

He said : " country" is in no position to wage a real conflict."
He did not claim if they did engage in real conflict, that the military would not be a threat.

We come in peace, we're a peaceful people! On the backdrop of invasion simulations. Looks like more Russian humor layered on military sabre rattling, poking at the West...because that's how we roll too when you think about it.

Contrast that with Kim Jong, who accompanies his sabre rattlings with silly, lost in translation claims like "We'll scorch the earth of the westerners", or whatever.

The U.S. is more deceptive.
We are a peaceful democracy and want prosperity for all! "Wait, I'm being told we want to invade Iraq, so you know, here we go."
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone in the room.
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

We got our asses kicked in Iraq and Afghanistan by a bunch of rag tags running around in sandals...………. and you believe that Russia isn't a serious threat when metal meets the bone?

What wars did we lose in Iraq and A-stan?

The Soviet (USSR) Intervention in Afghanistan from 1979-1989 was a long drawn out conflict that bled supposedly unending Soviet resources, and ultimately helped lead to a global shift in power. The Soviet intervention in Afghanistan was supposed to be a quick campaign to get the pro-Soviet government back on track. Ten years later and over one million people dead the USSR finally left Afghanistan.

The Soviet defeat changed the course of world politics. As Afghanistan is an insulator state the RSC’s that surround it have influence over the country, specifically the South Asian complex, however during the Cold War superpower influence took precedence over any regional influence, the regional powers remained largely silent on the issue of Afghanistan. The major participants in the conflict were the Mujahedin, the USSR and it’s Afghani puppet government.

The United States and other regional and global powers had big roles in supplying the rebels in order to combat the USSR. The reasons for Soviet intervention and US delegation to the Mujahedin to deal with it are the most interesting factors of the war in political terms. Regan’s theory that the Cold War made intervention more likely was proven to be correct here as ideological goals to precedence over strategic and obtainable goals. The Soviet-Afghan War is an example of this as the USSR believed it would be a short war, domestic and international pressures were met, and that intrastate conflicts during the Cold War drew the superpowers in. The US and its partner’s response to use "delegation," as Salehyan calls it, proved to be cost-effective and weakened their main adversary the Soviet Union.


If memory serves, and it does, it was the Russians (Soviets) who lost a war in A-stan. The U.S. lost one in Vietnam.
 
Last edited:
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

We got our asses kicked in Iraq and Afghanistan

:roll: No.
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

" country" is in no position to wage a real conflict." +1,
comments ?

"The week-long exercises, which kicked off yesterday, are intended as a show of might. But the country is in no position to wage a real conflict....

Vostok is not just a big military-training drill—it’s a massive psychological-warfare operation and a geopolitical gambit, being undertaken by Russia as it regains much of its martial mojo and its ability to mount and coordinate complex operations.

That said, there’s a difference between showing off your hardware and testing your new tactics, and actually going to war. We shouldn’t assume that Russia actually wants to fight some major conflict. If nothing else, while Vostok’s scale shows that Moscow has regained the capacity for a continental-scale operation, it could hardly afford to fight one for real. It would have a hard time mustering this kind of army during wartime, when railway lines and communication hubs would be primary targets.


This exercise is part of what I have called “heavy-metal diplomacy”: Russia’s use of its military to overawe and misdirect the West. We’ve seen this kind of undiplomatic diplomacy at work in Europe, where Moscow has responded to debates in Sweden and Finland about joining NATO with war games simulating Russian invasions. We also see this sort of diplomacy at work in the numbers game Vladimir Putin plays. In last year’s Zapad war games, Moscow lowballed the number of soldiers participating in order to keep it below the ceiling at which Western countries would be able to send inspectors under Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe rules. This time around, the Russians seem happy to play up those numbers. But the much-hyped 300,000 figure involves much false accounting—in practice, the real figure may well be closer to 150,000, which is admittedly still an impressive tally. Judging from past examples like Zapad, many of these soldiers are unlikely to leave their barracks. They’ll be “involved” in exercises at the command post, not ones out in the field." https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...9/russia-vostok-putin-army-china-nato/570034/

Litwin:

June 22, 1941 - May 8,, 1945. In less than four years a Thousand-Year Reich which had defeated all of the premier Western European military powers handily was reduced to a twelve-year ruin because their very foolish leaders drew that same conclusion about the USSR/Russia, based on its perceived military weakness in the Polish Campaign of 1939 and Winter War against Finland in 1940. Nearly 50 million people died on the Eastern Front because of that miscalculation. Do you want history to repeat itself with the added threat of thermonuclear war to widen the ruin? Never underestimate a potential military foe and never undertake war lightly.

Evilroddy.
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

6,845 dead

900,000 injured

And after 17 years, they are still war zones.

If we tally the dead (on both sides) then still the US did not get our asses handed to us. But that is not how wars are measured.
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

Litwin:

June 22, 1941 - May 8,, 1945. In less than four years a Thousand-Year Reich which had defeated all of the premier Western European military powers handily was reduced to a twelve-year ruin because their very foolish leaders drew that same conclusion about the USSR/Russia, based on its perceived military weakness in the Polish Campaign of 1939 and Winter War against Finland in 1940. Nearly 50 million people died on the Eastern Front because of that miscalculation. Do you want history to repeat itself with the added threat of thermonuclear war to widen the ruin? Never underestimate a potential military foe and never undertake war lightly.

Evilroddy.



The Germans had only to look closer at the French/Napoleon escapades little more than one-hundred years earlier..........”those who don’t know history................”
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

We did not get our asses kicked in Iraq an Afghanistan. Yes, we had setbacks and casualties but we did not get our asses kicked.

The US is winning the battles but losing the wars.

The US lacks the will power to commit the atrocities that could win the war (Ethnic cleansing or genocide) as one method, and lacks the will power to commit enough forces to control the ground. By refusing to do either, the US will never win the war in Afghanistan.
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

I'm serving in USAREUR and I'm never going to make the mistake of underestimating the enemy. They are a threat that need to be taken seriously.

+ 1,000,000,000,000.
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

If we tally the dead (on both sides) then still the US did not get our asses handed to us. But that is not how wars are measured.

How did Vietnam work out?
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

The US is winning the battles but losing the wars.

The US lacks the will power to commit the atrocities that could win the war (Ethnic cleansing or genocide) as one method, and lacks the will power to commit enough forces to control the ground. By refusing to do either, the US will never win the war in Afghanistan.

At least you get it.

I saw this coming in 2002, and I am proud that I didn't let my son join (talked him out of it actually) the military during the two invasions under Bush.
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

The US is winning the battles but losing the wars.

The US lacks the will power to commit the atrocities that could win the war (Ethnic cleansing or genocide) as one method, and lacks the will power to commit enough forces to control the ground. By refusing to do either, the US will never win the war in Afghanistan.



We learned nothing from the Russian experience in Afghanistan or the British........or earlier escapades.


From Wiki”Afghanistan is a mountainous landlocked country in Central Asia and South Asia. The Afghanistan area has been invaded many times in recorded history, but no invader has been able to control all of its regions at the same time,[citation needed] and at some point faced rebellion.[citation needed] Some of the invaders in the history of Afghanistan include the Maurya Empire of ancient India, Alexander the Great of Macedon, Umar, an Arab Caliphate, Genghis Khan of Mongolia, Timur of Persia and Central Asia, the Mughal Empire of India, various Persian Empires, the British Empire, the Sikh Empire, the Soviet Union, and most recently a coalition force of NATO troops, the majority from the United States, which entered the country in the first-ever invocation of NATO's Article 5 "an attack on one is an attack on all" following the September 11 attacks in the United States.
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

We did not get our asses kicked in Iraq an Afghanistan. Yes, we had setbacks and casualties but we did not get our asses kicked.

When the most powerful (and expensive) military on the planet cannot defeat in over 16 years an enemy that has no air power, no navy and a rag tag, at best, army then we have a very poor battle plan. The biggest problem is simply identifying the enemy - you simply cannot see an ideology.
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

Litwin:

June 22, 1941 - May 8,, 1945. In less than four years a Thousand-Year Reich which had defeated all of the premier Western European military powers handily was reduced to a twelve-year ruin because their very foolish leaders drew that same conclusion about the USSR/Russia, based on its perceived military weakness in the Polish Campaign of 1939 and Winter War against Finland in 1940. Nearly 50 million people died on the Eastern Front because of that miscalculation. Do you want history to repeat itself with the added threat of thermonuclear war to widen the ruin? Never underestimate a potential military foe and never undertake war lightly.

Evilroddy.

do you think that USSR (commie world project) and Ozero´s Muscovite empire the same country ?
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

We got our asses kicked in Iraq and Afghanistan by a bunch of rag tags running around in sandals...………. and you believe that Russia isn't a serious threat when metal meets the bone?

The fact that you think we have been getting our ass kicked in either iraq or Afghanistan shows that you have zero clue what you are talking about. Not being able to completely eliminate an insurgency is not getting your as kicked. You probably should study up on the topic a bit.
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

6,845 dead

900,000 injured

And after 17 years, they are still war zones.

Compared to the government's of Iraq Afghanistan that were removed from power. The extremely lopsided casualties that they suffered compared to us and the US military being able to exert it's will wherever and when ever it wants in both countries. Insurgencies are not quick or easily defeated and we have made our share of mistakes but to pretend we have gotten our ass kicked is simply being out of touch with reality.
 
Last edited:
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

We got our asses kicked in Iraq and Afghanistan by a bunch of rag tags running around in sandals...………. and you believe that Russia isn't a serious threat when metal meets the bone?

When the most powerful (and expensive) military on the planet cannot defeat in over 16 years an enemy that has no air power, no navy and a rag tag, at best, army then we have a very poor battle plan. The biggest problem is simply identifying the enemy - you simply cannot see an ideology.

Guerilla wars take time when you kill the enemy "by twos and tens". That and we didn't use maximum violence.
 
Re: Don’t Fear the "Russian" Military, the country is in no position to wage a real conflict.

Guerilla wars take time when you kill the enemy "by twos and tens". That and we didn't use maximum violence.

Yep, in a few more decades we might become (or at least declare ourselves to be) half way done.
 
Back
Top Bottom