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Russia Will Not Mass-Produce T-14 Armata Main Battle Tank

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https://www.dsiac.org/resources/new...-14-armata-main-battle-tank?utm_source=Digest

Russia will not mass-produce its new third-generation T-14 Armata main battle tank (MBT) as it is too costly, Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov told Russian media on July 30. Instead, the Russian military will continue to rely on older platforms such as the T-72B3s (fitted with explosive reactive armor), an upgraded variant of the original Soviet-era T-72 MBT, or the T-90A MBT, according to Borisov.
“Why flood our military with Armatas, the T-72s are in great demand on the markets,” the deputy prime minister said noting that the upgraded variant of the T-72 “leaves far behind” German, French and U.S. MBTs currently in service “in terms of price, efficiency and quality.” Furthermore, Borisov noted, when discussing the government’s decision to modernize older armor platforms: “Having a military budget ten times smaller than that of NATO, we are achieving our objectives due to such efficient solutions.”
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Cost has always been important to the Russians.
 
I have my doubts on how Russia came to this conclusion but they have been looking at next generation equipment (this T-14 Tank platform, the Su-57 stealth fighter, etc.) for long enough to suggest they will not abandon these ambitions. They do have buyers lined up but I assume that Russia is starting to feel the pinch of economic sanctions even with their energy trade to various EU nations.
 
DaveFagan said:
Their is initial cost, cost of deployment, maintenance, utility and projected future usage. Perhaps common sense is still common in Russia. For some reason they don't seem interested in any USA $20,000 toilets or $800 hammers.
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Sure there is occasional requirements drift, but many times there are reasons for those costs.
 
I am going to say the T14 is not a revolutionary jump in performance over the latest model T90 (I expect it is just an evolutionary remodel of the T90.
 
American said:
Sure there is occasional requirements drift, but many times there are reasons for those costs.
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More times than not they are Corporatism ripping off the taxpayer.
/
 
Napoleon said:
Very little by comparison.
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Of course, you wouldn't believe it. What do we get out of DoD; the best military. What do we get out of the Welfare system; nothing. And the defense budget is a smaller percentage of the total budget, by about 50%, then it was after WWII, Korea and smaller than during Vietnam.
 
American said:
Of course, you wouldn't believe it. What do we get out of DoD; the best military. What do we get out of the Welfare system; nothing. And the defense budget is a smaller percentage of the total budget, by about 50%, then it was after WWII, Korea and smaller than during Vietnam.
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The DOD is the only department or agency of government that has never been in compliance with Chief Financial Officers Act and has never passed a single audit. As far as any auditor has ever been able to assess - the DOD cannot account for at least 25% of its expenditures so they employ an army of people who’s job is to make **** up for their expense reports to the treasury. That’s on top of outright fraud. What we get from the DOD is certainly the most expensive military in the world. The best? Not when $700 billion buys you soldiers rummaging through garbage dumps on foreign soil for the equipment they need.
 
Russia is doing less with less despite the best efforts of the Putin Fanboyz to make Russia look smart, militarily powerful, rich and having the initiative.

In contrast however Russian GDP is ranked behind South Korea, Japan, Italy, Canada and just ahead of Australia. All of 'em together equal the population (roughly) of Russia and its Gas Station Economy.

Russian high brow culture is rich historically in literature, music, performing arts and the like. That was before totalitarian communism demanded everything in service to the Party-State. The consequence is that Russian soft power -- which is potentially a strength -- went both soft and limp. Which is not too different from Russian military power and its limited muscle.

Because in the Russian military budget it's out with the new and in with the old. Russian armed forces can't keep up with US Fifth Generation Warfare which is transitioning already into Sixth Generation Warfare (5GW-6GW) and now the Pentagon's Third Offset Strategy which focuses on neutralizing and overcoming the Anti-Access and Area Denial (A2/AD) defensive weapons designed to keep US forces distant and ineffective. Russia and China are transitioned heavily into A2/AD while Iran is trying its own hand at it -- just not very well in Tehran. Reality is that if the US showed up at the door of any of the three countries they'd be screwed.
 
OrphanSlug said:
They do have buyers lined up...
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Actually, nobody has agreed to buy a single tank other than Russia.

Oh, some have shown some interest in it. Egypt, India, China, and a few others. But everybody passed on it. They have been shopping it around for over 3 years to various countries, and nobody else wants it. In fact, their latest major arms deal with Egypt was for 300-400 T-90 tanks, all to be built in Egypt. They already have over 1,500 M-1 tanks, the T-90 is going to be used to replace the older T-62/72 that are used by their reserves and rear echelon units.

So even their most likely buyer has no need for another more expensive upgraded tank.

I bet this lack of interest from foreign countries is also a key reason why it is being scrapped.
 
Oozlefinch said:
Actually, nobody has agreed to buy a single tank other than Russia.

Oh, some have shown some interest in it. Egypt, India, China, and a few others. But everybody passed on it. They have been shopping it around for over 3 years to various countries, and nobody else wants it. In fact, their latest major arms deal with Egypt was for 300-400 T-90 tanks, all to be built in Egypt. They already have over 1,500 M-1 tanks, the T-90 is going to be used to replace the older T-62/72 that are used by their reserves and rear echelon units.

So even their most likely buyer has no need for another more expensive upgraded tank.

I bet this lack of interest from foreign countries is also a key reason why it is being scrapped.
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It was my understanding that India was lined up to buy 2-3 versions based on this platform, but it is not important enough for me to be right or wrong on this one. I'll take your word for it.
 
OrphanSlug said:
It was my understanding that India was lined up to buy 2-3 versions based on this platform, but it is not important enough for me to be right or wrong on this one. I'll take your word for it.
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This is what is known as an "evaluation purchase". And from what I can see, I can not see them buying any more.

India has been working on their own MBT, the Arjun for years now. And although progress has been slow, they are now fielding them and building more.

And about 20 years ago they purchased a large number of T-90 tanks, to replace their ageing T-72s until the Arjun is ready for wide scale deployment.

If anything, India probably wants a few of the T-14 so they can study it, and possibly integrate some aspects into future Arjun upgrades. But they themselves have never actually looked into it as a major purchase for themselves.

In fact, India is trying to interest foreign sales in the Arjun. So also you have an aspect of wanting to know what your competitors are building. Just as GM and Ford regularly purchase each other's vehicles.
 
Russia needed the Amata to counter the German Leopard 2 main battle tank and to overcome it. Russia has tanks identified here among other versions that can fight but without the Amata Russian ground forces remain disadvantaged against the Leopard MBT. US has the Abrams M1A1 and its upscaled versions while Nato countries in Europe have the Leopard. Germany and France are currently developing the Leopard 3 which incorporates both countries designs but which remains an awesomely German tank.

Leopard_2A5_main_battle_tank_German_Germany_army_KMW_military_equipment_defense_industry_003.jpg

Germany and many European Nato countries main battle tank is the German Leopard 2 (A5 above) known for its ability to hit moving targets while moving through rough terrain. The Leopard 2 has been deployed with the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan, as well as in Syria with the Turkish Armed Forces against ISIS and the YPG.



A couple of dozen countries have bought the Leopard 2, to include its current version, the 2A7+. Poland has two rapid action armor brigades of 116 Leopards each, plus other Leopard 2. Canada has 112 Leopard 2 MBT while Netherlands understandably has 442 Leopard 2 MBT variants. Turkey has 354 of the Leopard 2. Singapore has 182 of 'em and Indonesia has 103 Leopard 2. The list of countries that choose the Leopard is long and its sales are huge. There are Russian tanks that can still bring the fight but the time of the Russian tank winning the day in history are past. The time was brief by any standard.
 
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American said:
https://www.dsiac.org/resources/new...-14-armata-main-battle-tank?utm_source=Digest


Cost has always been important to the Russians.
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Russia has since the soviet union made quality tanks and quantity tanks, the quality tanks are for defense of critical areas and never mass produced, while the quantity tanks are mass produced. However in practice their quantity tanks have proven superior going back to the t-64, where their quality models were plagued with issues.

Fast forward to the t-80, at the time it was released it was the most advanced tank on earth, even using a turbine before the m1 was a scribble on paper, however despite how advanced it was it did poorly, it was too heavy, too slow, and needed a convoy of fuelers behind it to run, ontop of that they were to big for urban fighting in many areas and got stuck easily, during the 2 wars in chechnya the t-72 outperformed the t-80 by leaps and bounds.

Fast forward ahead the t-90 which was a t-72 fitted with the advancements of the t-80, it is so far the best performing tank in russia, so well in chechnya it survived around 7 direct hits from rpg'7s on a single tank and had nearly no effect on it and performed so well even it's engineers were shocked, despite this it was pushed for a tank to replace it.

Now to the t-14, it is a good design but it likely faces the same issues as the t-80, too big too new and went away from kiss(keep it simple stupid) and it is likely possible they are realizing the best way to get the most out of the t-14 is to further testing then take anything proven from it and adapt it to the t-72/t-90 platform.
 
OrphanSlug said:
I have my doubts on how Russia came to this conclusion but they have been looking at next generation equipment (this T-14 Tank platform, the Su-57 stealth fighter, etc.) for long enough to suggest they will not abandon these ambitions. They do have buyers lined up but I assume that Russia is starting to feel the pinch of economic sanctions even with their energy trade to various EU nations.
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The su-57 was made actually for india who has pretty much walked away from it, instead the are talking about equipping older flanker variants with the su-57 stealth tech. Russia has actually quite often made ground breaking tech just for evaluation, to see what works and what does not, and russia will likely take what works and adapt it to it's proven platforms, remember you are dealing with a country that wants simple and effective, and bleeding edge designs are often the opposite especially when the t-90 tanks and the su-27 are still among the premier equipment of the world in full service and export.
 
Tangmo said:
Russia is doing less with less despite the best efforts of the Putin Fanboyz to make Russia look smart, militarily powerful, rich and having the initiative.

In contrast however Russian GDP is ranked behind South Korea, Japan, Italy, Canada and just ahead of Australia. All of 'em together equal the population (roughly) of Russia and its Gas Station Economy.

Russian high brow culture is rich historically in literature, music, performing arts and the like. That was before totalitarian communism demanded everything in service to the Party-State. The consequence is that Russian soft power -- which is potentially a strength -- went both soft and limp. Which is not too different from Russian military power and its limited muscle.

Because in the Russian military budget it's out with the new and in with the old. Russian armed forces can't keep up with US Fifth Generation Warfare which is transitioning already into Sixth Generation Warfare (5GW-6GW) and now the Pentagon's Third Offset Strategy which focuses on neutralizing and overcoming the Anti-Access and Area Denial (A2/AD) defensive weapons designed to keep US forces distant and ineffective. Russia and China are transitioned heavily into A2/AD while Iran is trying its own hand at it -- just not very well in Tehran. Reality is that if the US showed up at the door of any of the three countries they'd be screwed.
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Air sea battle air sea battle air sea battle!!!!!!!!!! Oh and t-90 tank is billy badass, the russians problem was trying to rid of it, the kontact 1 and 5 era as well as the relikt era has shown from chechnya to syria to be extremely effective, so much so in all conflicts only 1 t-90 has ever been destroyed, while their last supertank the t-80 lost quite a few.
 
Tougher Times Ahead for Russia

AP_russian_tank_ml_150507_12x5_1600.jpg

Tow chain is attached to Russian T-14 Armata in Red Square after the high tech wannabe main battle tank broke down in connection with a parade and celebration of Victory in Europe in WW II, 1945. Can't think of a war Russia has won since....or before then either. As if the 20th century wasn't bad enough for Russia, we're now in the 21st century of Russian wrong headed thinking and behaviors.


Egypt has 1,713 of M60 (A3) and 1,130 of the Abrams M1A1 that go in first plus a thousand of the various Russian T-Klunker tanks and 500 of the local Ramses II.

I see in looking at updated numbers Canada has 183 Leopard MBT most of which are deployed to Afghanistan.

India's shooting for 3500 Arjun which outperforms the Russian T-90, T-72 et al, to complement its 2,414 of the T-72 as upgraded significantly by the Polish manufacturers of the PT-91 Polish tank.

Unless Iran is going to enter WW II it is in deep trouble with the Patton M48 and Patton M60 plus a bunch of T-72 and T-62 along with some local Zulfiqar MBT that proved to be a gas can in the Iran-Iraq war. The ayatollahs made the choice some time ago to go nuclear rather than rebuild completely their entire pre-WW II military.

Russia has 10,255 of the T-72 variants, and 4500 of the T-80....plus 4000 of the T-64....fewer than a thousand of the T-90 tank and several dozen of the Armata T-14. Russians are further embarrassed to have nearly 4000 of the T-54 and T-55 neither of which was a bad tank in its day.

Saudi Arabia has a thousand MBT, 145 from France and the rest from USA -- M60A3 and M1A2. Spain has Leopards and M60s while Greece has Leopards only, upwards of 1000. Treaty ally Thailand has several hundred M60 models and some Ukrainian tanks and use only the Ukraine sourced tanks for their regular and many military coups.

Turkey of course has the largest military in Nato-Europe:

750 German Leopard 1 & 2 upgraded continually
1062 of USA M60 variants
850 of the USA M48A5T2 to include M60A3 thermal imaging, fire control systems and laser rangefinder.


Mexico hasn't any MBT which might be why Trump picks on 'em a lot.
 
beerftw said:
Air sea battle air sea battle air sea battle!!!!!!!!!! Oh and t-90 tank is billy badass, the russians problem was trying to rid of it, the kontact 1 and 5 era as well as the relikt era has shown from chechnya to syria to be extremely effective, so much so in all conflicts only 1 t-90 has ever been destroyed, while their last supertank the t-80 lost quite a few.
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parrot.jpg

AIR SEA BATTLE! AIR SEA BATTLE! AIR SEA BATTLE!

Braaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk...................
 
beerftw said:
Russia has since the soviet union made quality tanks and quantity tanks, the quality tanks are for defense of critical areas and never mass produced, while the quantity tanks are mass produced. However in practice their quantity tanks have proven superior going back to the t-64, where their quality models were plagued with issues.

Fast forward to the t-80, at the time it was released it was the most advanced tank on earth, even using a turbine before the m1 was a scribble on paper, however despite how advanced it was it did poorly, it was too heavy, too slow, and needed a convoy of fuelers behind it to run, ontop of that they were to big for urban fighting in many areas and got stuck easily, during the 2 wars in chechnya the t-72 outperformed the t-80 by leaps and bounds.

Fast forward ahead the t-90 which was a t-72 fitted with the advancements of the t-80, it is so far the best performing tank in russia, so well in chechnya it survived around 7 direct hits from rpg'7s on a single tank and had nearly no effect on it and performed so well even it's engineers were shocked, despite this it was pushed for a tank to replace it.

Now to the t-14, it is a good design but it likely faces the same issues as the t-80, too big too new and went away from kiss(keep it simple stupid) and it is likely possible they are realizing the best way to get the most out of the t-14 is to further testing then take anything proven from it and adapt it to the t-72/t-90 platform.
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Their engineers were shocked? That's either a lie, or they didn't test the tank enough.
 
American said:
Their engineers were shocked? That's either a lie, or they didn't test the tank enough.
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Knowing the russians, they likely never did much testing, especially since the t-90 was designed right after the fall of the soviet union and it could not even keep it's legacy tanks up to shape at that time. The explosive ractive armor was designed to be a cheap means of stopping anti tank guided missiles, but when actually put to the test it outperformed what the engineers dreamed of. The weakness of the t-90 in kinetic energy weapons ie traditional cannons, though they can take a beating with those the m1 super sabot whatever you call it was designed for stopping kontact 1/5 armor, which led russia to build the relikt era, which will likely lead to america creating a new cannon to defeat the relikt armor.
 
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