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U.S. pushes NATO to ready more forces to deter Russian threat

JacksinPA

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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-forces-to-deter-russian-threat-idUSKCN1J11L4

BRUSSELS/WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States is pressing its European allies to get more NATO battalions, ships and planes ready for combat, officials say, in a fresh move to shore up NATO’s deterrence against any Russian attack.

U.S. Secretary of Defence Jim Mattis will seek broad agreement for the plan in Brussels on Thursday when alliance defence ministers meet, laying the ground for endorsement by NATO leaders at a summit in July, four U.S. and NATO officials and diplomats told Reuters.

Known as 30-30-30-30, the plan would require NATO to have 30 land battalions, 30 air fighter squadrons and 30 ships ready to deploy within 30 days of being put on alert.
============================================
What Russian threat? This sounds like paranoia feeding the Military Industrial Complex that Eisenhower warned us about.
 
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-forces-to-deter-russian-threat-idUSKCN1J11L4

BRUSSELS/WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States is pressing its European allies to get more NATO battalions, ships and planes ready for combat, officials say, in a fresh move to shore up NATO’s deterrence against any Russian attack.

U.S. Secretary of Defence Jim Mattis will seek broad agreement for the plan in Brussels on Thursday when alliance defence ministers meet, laying the ground for endorsement by NATO leaders at a summit in July, four U.S. and NATO officials and diplomats told Reuters.

Known as 30-30-30-30, the plan would require NATO to have 30 land battalions, 30 air fighter squadrons and 30 ships ready to deploy within 30 days of being put on alert.
============================================
What Russian threat? This sounds like paranoia feeding the Military Industrial Complex that Eisenhower warned us about.


It sounds schizoid since Trump himself is so unwilling to act like Russia poses any threat.
 
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-forces-to-deter-russian-threat-idUSKCN1J11L4

BRUSSELS/WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States is pressing its European allies to get more NATO battalions, ships and planes ready for combat, officials say, in a fresh move to shore up NATO’s deterrence against any Russian attack.

U.S. Secretary of Defence Jim Mattis will seek broad agreement for the plan in Brussels on Thursday when alliance defence ministers meet, laying the ground for endorsement by NATO leaders at a summit in July, four U.S. and NATO officials and diplomats told Reuters.

Known as 30-30-30-30, the plan would require NATO to have 30 land battalions, 30 air fighter squadrons and 30 ships ready to deploy within 30 days of being put on alert.
============================================
What Russian threat? This sounds like paranoia feeding the Military Industrial Complex that Eisenhower warned us about.

After Crimea - the Baltic States think they could be next and who knows after them.
 
After Crimea - the Baltic States think they could be next and who knows after them.

Correct and NATO needs to station substantial forces there.
 
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-forces-to-deter-russian-threat-idUSKCN1J11L4

BRUSSELS/WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States is pressing its European allies to get more NATO battalions, ships and planes ready for combat, officials say, in a fresh move to shore up NATO’s deterrence against any Russian attack.

U.S. Secretary of Defence Jim Mattis will seek broad agreement for the plan in Brussels on Thursday when alliance defence ministers meet, laying the ground for endorsement by NATO leaders at a summit in July, four U.S. and NATO officials and diplomats told Reuters.

Known as 30-30-30-30, the plan would require NATO to have 30 land battalions, 30 air fighter squadrons and 30 ships ready to deploy within 30 days of being put on alert.
============================================
What Russian threat? This sounds like paranoia feeding the Military Industrial Complex that Eisenhower warned us about.

We need war time tax rates, now!
 
It sounds schizoid since Trump himself is so unwilling to act like Russia poses any threat.

Sometimes people imagine the Russian threat to be one of imminent one-time mass invasion but that isn’t Russia’s way of doing things. They play the long game. People like Vladimir Putin know they can’t restore the Soviet Union but they can Frankenstein a likeness by sending the message that if you’re not willing to be a puppet State or otherwise get too cozy with the West then they’ll slice you up and keep the pieces they want. Moldova in 1992, Georgia in 2008, Ukraine in 2014...the Baltic States know what’s going on here. The only question is how far NATO is willing to let this go unanswered.
 
Correct and NATO needs to station substantial forces there.

JANFU:

I'm not so sure that's a good idea. There is almost no room in the tiny Baltic States for adequate defence in depth and manoeuvre room. NATO forces and indigenous Baltic forces could be quickly overrun in the unlikely event that the Russians launched a full scale conventional attack there. If on the other hand the Russians used hybrid warfare then heavy NATO forces would be far less effective than light infantry supported by sigint, long range artillery and air power. I think the best strategy is to convince the Baltic States to develop two armed forces. A light infantry based force with lots of anti-armour and man portable anti-aircraft capability to act as a stay-behind force and a heavy Baltic Brigade or three deployed nearby but outside of the Baltic States, ready to move in and counter-attack at very short notice, supported by NATO brigades, artillery, ships and aircraft. That reduces the chance of the whole defensive force being overrun in short order.

If a future Russian hybrid warfare attack were to be launched then the light infantry stay-behind forces supplemented by NATO light forces, artillery, aircraft and the out-of-countries Baltic brigade(s) should be sufficient to defend and stabilise the region. Ploughing in too many forces is a big mistake in my opinion, one which the Russians learned the hard way during the early stages of Operation Barbarossa in 1941 when the invading Germans overran successive divisions of poorly mobile Soviet forces before they were ready to defend themselves. The Baltic States are a natural kessel into which NATO forces could be pocketed if the Russians decided to make a full blown effort to take the Baltics.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
JANFU:

I'm not so sure that's a good idea. There is almost no room in the tiny Baltic States for adequate defence in depth and manoeuvre room. NATO forces and indigenous Baltic forces could be quickly overrun in the unlikely event that the Russians launched a full scale conventional attack there. If on the other hand the Russians used hybrid warfare then heavy NATO forces would be far less effective than light infantry supported by sigint, long range artillery and air power. I think the best strategy is to convince the Baltic States to develop two armed forces. A light infantry based force with lots of anti-armour and man portable anti-aircraft capability to act as a stay-behind force and a heavy Baltic Brigade or three deployed nearby but outside of the Baltic States, ready to move in and counter-attack at very short notice, supported by NATO brigades, artillery, ships and aircraft. That reduces the chance of the whole defensive force being overrun in short order.

If a future Russian hybrid warfare attack were to be launched then the light infantry stay-behind forces supplemented by NATO light forces, artillery, aircraft and the out-of-countries Baltic brigade(s) should be sufficient to defend and stabilise the region. Ploughing in too many forces is a big mistake in my opinion, one which the Russians learned the hard way during the early stages of Operation Barbarossa in 1941 when the invading Germans overran successive divisions of poorly mobile Soviet forces before they were ready to defend themselves. The Baltic States are a natural kessel into which NATO forces could be pocketed if the Russians decided to make a full blown effort to take the Baltics.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

I see your points and disagree, I use West Berlin as 1 example, they were a trip wire. The same applies to a substantial force in the Baltic's to slow, halt.defeat but give a bloody nose to a smaller force than a full invasion. The question is, would NATO invoke Article 5, and specifically use of force if Russia attacked the Baltic's?

NATO should have a multi national force in the Baltic's, primarily, German, French, Italy and US, with all other NATO countries rotating smaller forces in/out. Then all have blood and treasure in the Baltic's.
 
After Crimea - the Baltic States think they could be next and who knows after them.

Russia's actions in Crimea were the direct result of US/NATO actions in Ukraine. Cause and Effect.

Poland and the Baltics are not really the same dynamics in play.
 
The NATO force is needed as a deterrent. The Kremlin stages even more war materials and supplies in Kaliningrad.
 
It sounds schizoid since Trump himself is so unwilling to act like Russia poses any threat.

Maybe this is your clue that you got something wrong.


SecDef James Mattis in in command of the national security, sovereignty, defense. Mattis and the joint chiefs of staff and the chairman USMC General Joseph Dunford. Trump has necessarily yielded to Mattis and the joint chiefs for two reasons. First and foremost is that he is incompetent and dangerous in his role as CinC. Second is that Trump is occupied completely by his domestic troubles which are self-caused and generated. Pentagon has asserted itself because the national security, sovereignty and defense are number one and Trump is both inept at it and disinterested. Dangerous in fact.

If for instance the US does a bloody nose strike against NK it will be the decision of Mattis and the JCS, not Trump. Trump will sign off on it cheerfully because he'll expect big gains due to being Potus and CinC. All the same however, Trump and Kim are just beginning to play the full course so a strike is not certain and remains on the table only. As Army Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Milley said to the National Press Club last year, the fact there are no good military options on NK does not absolve US armed forces commanders from taking one of 'em and to execute it. Or to integrate one or more lousy options into a single new stinker. No good option does not mean giving it a pass. Strategic commanders make the command decisions they must make irrespective of the fact no option is ideal, or preferred, or perhaps not so bad. The bottom line is to be decisive. If not decisive then effective. The lesson of history is that when the cost of doing nothing becomes greater than the cost of doing something and yet doing nothing is the choice, then the strategic approach is a fail.

There are no good options in dealing with Putin either. So what is needed is credible deterrence. Putin's generals and military intelligence have their book on SecDef Mattis and there is no doubt the cover is stamped with the word credible in capital letters and in a bold and large font. It is virtually certain Trump has no idea of the 30-30-30-30 as reported in the OP. Nor is Trump interested. Trump won't know unless Putin calls him about it. And once Trump finds out it is the work of Mattis Trump will be avoiding Putin's calls for a considerable period of time.
 
It sounds schizoid since Trump himself is so unwilling to act like Russia poses any threat.

Wow, is your head in the sand all the time?

Were you in a coma earlier this year when President Trump and Russia were trading threats and accusations over Syria? Including the large number of missiles launched at Syria? At the huge increase in US weapon sales to the Ukraine, and again attempts by the current administration to bring the Ukraine into NATO?

President Trump has also been putting forward an extensive plan to upgrade and modernize our current strategic weapons stockpiles. Who do you think these are intended to off-set, if not Russia?

You must live in some kind of strange cave, to have missed all of this and more. Either that, or you are simply ignoring everything that you do not like, and putting forward only your own distorted version of reality.
 
Correct and NATO needs to station substantial forces there.

Not really.

All that is needed is enough support to blunt an attack, and slow it down until help can arrive.

That has always been the key strategy of NATO. Trade land for time, so that the rest of the alliance can bring it's equipment and personnel into play.

Even most of the "WWIII scenarios" between Warsaw Pact and NATO supposed the lost of most of Western Europe. With lines stabilizing somewhere in Eastern France. It would take that long to get the rest of NATO mobilized, and forces and equipment from the US and other nations brought into the theater. The forces on the ground were to have fought a withdrawing action, trading space for time. Set up a line, blunt or slow down the attack, then move West again. Rinse and repeat until the forces pouring in from the French Coast arrived.

This is why so many books written about the conflict by those that understood these plans, the major conflicts were on the ocean (Red Storm Rising), or the air war in the attempt to gain air superiority (Red Storm Rising, The Third World War). These in many ways were considered even more important than the war on the ground.
The Soviets knew they could not extend supply lines much past the French-German border. So it was key to them to stop the resupply by US forces across the Atlantic. NATO knew it could not hope to blunt the assault via land forces, so it needed to use it's air power to try and blunt the attack and disrupt the logistics of the invading forces.

Today, the alignment of forces is drastically different than it was during the Cold War. Most of the Warsaw Pact is gone. Having aligned itself to NATO to prevent ever being forced to follow Russia again, or reluctantly remaining neutral due to Finlandization. And for those nations, accepting even limited NATO support and forces is enough to help keep Russia in check.

That is why you see Poland making such large expenditures into NATO. Once considered to likely have been the cannon-fodder of the Warsaw pact, they are constantly asking for more support from NATO. And they are a larger member of NATO than many realize. They give more money that Belgium to the alliance. Their military expenditures are larger than that of the Netherlands. And at 2% of their GDP going to military expenditures, they only fall behind the US (3.6%), Greece (2.3%), UK (2.1%), Estonia (2.1%), and Lithuania (2.06%) in trying to pay "their fair share" of the organizations costs.

If Russia was ever to feel adventurous enough to attack, Poland is well aware that they would be over-run yet again. But they also know that as part of NATO, they would eventually be liberated once the fighting stopped.

Sometimes people imagine the Russian threat to be one of imminent one-time mass invasion but that isn’t Russia’s way of doing things. They play the long game. People like Vladimir Putin know they can’t restore the Soviet Union but they can Frankenstein a likeness by sending the message that if you’re not willing to be a puppet State or otherwise get too cozy with the West then they’ll slice you up and keep the pieces they want. Moldova in 1992, Georgia in 2008, Ukraine in 2014...the Baltic States know what’s going on here. The only question is how far NATO is willing to let this go unanswered.

Hence my constant reference to Finlandization. And no, I do not mean the term as a pejorative towards Finland, but as a term of realpolitik maneuvering in how one country can get another to follow it's wishes through the potential threat of force.

I can generally tell who has an idea what is really at play here, in if they get the reference (or if they have not heard of it, if they take a few minutes to research it and understand the implication).

The Russian Empire and Soviet Union both used it's potential use of force as a way to achieve their goals. But it was not always potential, both used actual invasions and incursions enough to show that such threats were not just empty promises.

More and more during the past 20 years we have seen Russia start to throw it's weight around in Eastern Europe. And only targeting nations that do not have a firm alliance with other nations. Specifically NATO and the EU.
 
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