Trump administration grants license for Taiwan submarine project: report

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...taiwan-submarine-project-report-idUSKBN1HE0PU

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Trump administration has approved the marketing license required for American manufacturers to sell technology to Taiwan that would allow for building domestic submarines, Taiwan’s Central News Agency reported on Saturday.
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The Chinese are not going to be happy about this news.

JacksinPA said:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...taiwan-submarine-project-report-idUSKBN1HE0PU

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Trump administration has approved the marketing license required for American manufacturers to sell technology to Taiwan that would allow for building domestic submarines, Taiwan’s Central News Agency reported on Saturday.
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The Chinese are not going to be happy about this news.

Click to expand...

I support this move, **** the Chinese.

But here's what I don't understand, with this alleged Korean summit taking place soon?

Trumps overtly and relatively aggressive steps towards China in terms of Tariffs and this in the lead up are certainly interesting, he hasn't demonstrated to any extent he really understands foreign relations, is he going to use things like this as his bargaining chip in the negotiations to push China to pressure Korea?

Guess we'll see.

Anyway, I stand for an independent and free Taiwan, anything in the furtherance of that goal, even small steps like this are absolutely welcome.

I say no to Chinese Hegemony.

Any technology given to Taiwan will be transferred directly to China in 1.2.3. Really bad idea. Submarines are the one area where we dominate the rest of the world. Please tell me we are not giving them our good stuff.

The significant statement out of this is that it's like the $1.3 billion arms package last year, i.e., it contains many offensive weapons. The best defense being a good offense. The Taiwan Relations Act of 1979 specifies defensive weapons and that's what we've sent over to 'em with only rare exception. These Trump packages light up incoming weapons against the CCP mainland like a game screen. Good on 'em given CCP Dictators in Beijing have been building forces, weapons platforms and stealing technology for two decades.



Flags of Taiwan and U.S. are placed for a meeting between U.S. House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Ed Royce and Su Chia-chyuan, President of the Legislative Yuan in Taipei. Thomson Reuters



Still it's true Trump fell over on this one because the USA could make the subs and sell 'em to Taiwan. GE Electric Boat would have an entire new work project and for the good cause of our ally Taiwan and to give a serious setback to strategic competitor Beijing. Yet we have what we have, i.e., providing several key components.

The sub licenses provide the latest torpedoes and firing tubes, new tech periscopes, a silent running propulsion system and the newest weapons systems.

The arms package had already upgraded Taiwan military punch. It included air-to-ground missiles to hit the mainland China, HARM air launched anti radar and anti defense systems, air to surface glide missiles (JSOW) that take out hardened tactical targets such as those right across the Strait. Most of the new stuff will be fitted to the F-16 Flying Falcon Viper attack craft completing their upgrade from the Obama administration. So it all adds up.

Which brings us to the current Pentagon plan to sell Taiwan AV-8 Harrier Jump Jets as USMC begins to bring on the F-35B stealth fighters that take off vertically. If Taipei might seem ungrateful on this point it would be because the AF generals want the real thingy -- the F-35B. Japan is the only country in Pacific-Asia authorized by Congress to receive the F-35B which began arriving last year. Given CCP Dictator-Tyrants would hit Taiwan AF bases with a thousand missiles Taipei armed forces commanders want a vertical/short takeoff fighter that can dogfight. Harrier is not a dogfight jet and its range is shorter than the F-35. Taipei can stash the F-35B for baby in its many mountain ranges. Army defenses along the island's mountainous coast establish a Fortress Taiwan against landing forces, as do the 80 Taiwan Navy small fast boats with missiles and torpedoes. The Strait itself is mined high low and densely. So PLA are shifting invasion plans to the eastern side of the island from the open sea. Hence the new inclusion of offensive arms to the island. And the sudden rush for subs to head off PLA Navy invasion ships and landing vessels.

John Bolton has for years spoken openly about diplomatic recognition of Taiwan. Informal Trump adviser Michael Pillsbury who for three decades has dialoged with Beijing generals and admirals says with Xi Jinpingpong he sees aggression morphing out of smiles. Peter Navarro wants same as Bolton to throw Taiwan in Beijing's ugly face. In 2016 Congress authorized exchange visits of generals and admirals between Taiwan and USA bases to include top Pentagon civilian bosses. So this keeps going in deeper which is fine. Let the CCP Boyz think more about it. There's a new arms package for Taiwan coming later this year.

trblmkr said:

Any technology given to Taiwan will be transferred directly to China in 1.2.3. Really bad idea. Submarines are the one area where we dominate the rest of the world. Please tell me we are not giving them our good stuff.

Click to expand...

And what exactly are they going to gain? It is not like the Chinese have not been building submarines for decades.

At this time, the RoC has 4 submarines. 2 are the old Post-war era Tench class US subs (1944 and 1945). They also have 2 subs built in the mid-1980's by the Netherlands, based on the early 1950's era Barbel class.

They are not going to be building nuclear subs, nor are they going to be building ballistic subs. Odds are they will be building an updated Barbel class boat. They do not even need something along the lines of the Netherlands Walrus class, it is to big for their needs.

Trust me, we have been out of the Conventional Submarine business for over 30 years, and have not even built one in almost 60 years. I doubt there is any technology along those lines that we can sell to RoC that the PRC can use.

And the actual technology they are wanting is Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP). And interestingly enough, that is a technology that the US never really perfected. They played around with it in the 1950's, using designed taken from the Germans after WWII. But with the advent of nuclear propulsion, it was quickly abandoned. However, 18 other nations (including the PRC) are already using AIP technology, and have been doing so for a decade or more.

If I have to guess, what they are probably trying to procure is some advanced fuel cell technology, which is something the US is very experienced in using. Because the other technologies are highly unlikely. The Open Cycle and Closed Cycle diesel engines were very dangerous to use, and each had their own risks of catastrophic explosions. The Closed Cycle Steam Turbine is not a very efficient design, and is very expensive to make. The only other system used is the Stirling engine, which once again is a technology that the US has never had much interest in due to it's inefficiency.

So that means it is likely that they want to acquire fuel cells. Along with possibly some other technology like possibly the plans for the Barbel class, as well as possibly life support technology and possibly navigation equipment.

A token gesture... makes essentially no difference in the grand scheme of things.

Oozlefinch said:

And what exactly are they going to gain? It is not like the Chinese have not been building submarines for decades.

At this time, the RoC has 4 submarines. 2 are the old Post-war era Tench class US subs (1944 and 1945). They also have 2 subs built in the mid-1980's by the Netherlands, based on the early 1950's era Barbel class.

They are not going to be building nuclear subs, nor are they going to be building ballistic subs. Odds are they will be building an updated Barbel class boat. They do not even need something along the lines of the Netherlands Walrus class, it is to big for their needs.

Trust me, we have been out of the Conventional Submarine business for over 30 years, and have not even built one in almost 60 years. I doubt there is any technology along those lines that we can sell to RoC that the PRC can use.

And the actual technology they are wanting is Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP). And interestingly enough, that is a technology that the US never really perfected. They played around with it in the 1950's, using designed taken from the Germans after WWII. But with the advent of nuclear propulsion, it was quickly abandoned. However, 18 other nations (including the PRC) are already using AIP technology, and have been doing so for a decade or more.

If I have to guess, what they are probably trying to procure is some advanced fuel cell technology, which is something the US is very experienced in using. Because the other technologies are highly unlikely. The Open Cycle and Closed Cycle diesel engines were very dangerous to use, and each had their own risks of catastrophic explosions. The Closed Cycle Steam Turbine is not a very efficient design, and is very expensive to make. The only other system used is the Stirling engine, which once again is a technology that the US has never had much interest in due to it's inefficiency.

So that means it is likely that they want to acquire fuel cells. Along with possibly some other technology like possibly the plans for the Barbel class, as well as possibly life support technology and possibly navigation equipment.

Click to expand...

I rode a fast attack in the mid 70's. Went places we weren't supposed to be doing stuff we weren't supposed to do. In a NATO exercise in the Med, we almost got shot by an upgraded old Diesel boat we sold to the Italians. When running on batteries they can be hard to hear. The big thing with boats is sound and vibration isolation. Snorkling on the diesel you can hear them miles away. That fuel cell stuff makes that old hull pretty damn dangerous if you toss in some modern sonar arrays and fire control.

trblmkr said:

I rode a fast attack in the mid 70's. Went places we weren't supposed to be doing stuff we weren't supposed to do. In a NATO exercise in the Med, we almost got shot by an upgraded old Diesel boat we sold to the Italians. When running on batteries they can be hard to hear. The big thing with boats is sound and vibration isolation. Snorkling on the diesel you can hear them miles away. That fuel cell stuff makes that old hull pretty damn dangerous if you toss in some modern sonar arrays and fire control.

Click to expand...

And what does that have to do with this at all?

PRC already has AIP submarines, and produces fuel cells. And I can't see PRC invading ROC. I think they are well aware that the political backlash from the nations of the world would be too severe.