Army Basic Training no longer works

Jredbaron96 said:

There's a lot of problems with the Army's new wave of recruits. Part of it is poor levels of discipline with new recruits, but to put all the blame on that is missing the bigger point.

The Army has three main problems that I've observed. The first is the way promotions work. Too often I've seen people, who aren't bad soldiers or bad people necessarily, get their stripes, even when it's patently clear they aren't really fit to be leaders. But because they say the right things at the board or are good at PT, CSM's and First Sergeants assume they're all squared away, and as a result you have teams and squads that are run by people who don't really have the necessary skills to lead others. But once you get E-5, suddenly everything's untouchable. "Check down, not up" is probably the most toxic saying I've heard around my unit.

Second is PT.
[...] SNIPPED FOR BREVITY

...and too many times junior enlisted have no idea what the **** they're doing or for what end their doing it towards. Too many command teams I've seen on Fort Hood alone are only concerned with checking the boxes rather than actually finding out what's going on. And it's a shame, because a lot of times those commanders and First Sergeants mean well, but there's an almost systematic problem with it comes with information dispersion between battalions and their lower echelons. Maybe's it just my unit, but that's what bothers me a lot.

Anywho, just my 0.02 cents.

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It would seem to me that all of this sounds like it is decades in the making.

Hawkeye10 said:

Obama and McCain.....look at what they have done to us........

Notice how you cant point to where Obama notified us of how bad our military is now.

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Can't?
How about "WON'T" because presidents don't sit their people down for fireside chats on that sort of subject, because if they did, YOU would be able to point to presidents who already DID, and there are none.
NO PRESIDENT has ever made a speech about how much the military sucked.

Just stop, you've gone way past absurd already.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Can't?
How about "WON'T" because presidents don't sit their people down for fireside chats on that sort of subject, because if they did, YOU would be able to point to presidents who already DID, and there are none.
NO PRESIDENT has ever made a speech about how much the military sucked.

Just stop, you've gone way past absurd already.

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If Reagan the actor could manage surely Obama the professor could do it...if he had been smart enough to figure things out...... and honorable enough to do the right thing.

Thanks for the advice but I am taking a pass.






March 23, 1983
Ronald Reagan: Address to the Nation on Defense and National Security

iguanaman said:

I have great respect for the Navy. I know they agree with me that diplomacy is the best option, especially when it comes to China. Yet Trump is gutting our diplomatic staff while he builds up the military. It's dangerous and foolish.

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I've never been impressed by the state department. Its leadership is staffed by donors to the winning party. In my working life i traveled a good bit and the running joke (which I can attest to) is that if you have any troubles abroad contact the local British embassy, the USA embassy is useless.

Its a huge and mostly unnecessary bureaucracy. Visa applications are more efficiently handled in the USA (we now have things called "computers")

Here is a picture of the US Embassy in Uruguay, a tiny country that we have no economic or defense relations with with:



(Lots of BMWs in the parking lot)

What are all of these bureaucrats doing with their time and why does it need to be done?

What would happen if whatever they're are doing wasn't done?

Hawkeye10 said:

There is no excuse for a nation that spends all told about $1 trillion a year on defense but cant manage to do Army Basic Training to even the most minimal standards....that is how you end up thinking that you have an Army ready to defend you when you dont. You dont want to see what happens after that.

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They did them to the then minimum standards.... These are new minimum standards... Training evolves.......

Hawkeye10 said:

WOW, what a terrible post.

I am a little surprised that it comes from U.

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Nobody is surprised by the partisan trash in your OP.

It's pathetic and dishonest.

Hawkeye10 said:

If Reagan the actor could manage surely Obama the professor could do it...if he had been smart enough to figure things out...... and honorable enough to do the right thing.

Thanks for the advice but I am taking a pass.






March 23, 1983
Ronald Reagan: Address to the Nation on Defense and National Security

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Seeing as how it's clear that you never caught a single one of Obama's media offerings, you wouldn't even know anyway.
And, just so we are clear, once again you are practicing selective amnesia with regard to the kind of Republican obstructionism and media wars on anything and everything Obama ever said.
Here is what I do know as a fact. The times when Obama has engaged with the nation on the subject of our military, the backlash from organs like Fox News was instantaneous. They wouldn't even bother to parse anything he said, it was just knee-jerk reactionary nonsense, similar to what you're putting out right now.

You are welcome to have the last word on the subject if you like, I am bowing out because it IS nonsense.
Obama's weakness wasn't a lack of support for the military, it was his slipshod and sloppy foreign policy.
He didn't hate the military, he was perhaps not quite adept at using it to advantage...except of course where catching bin Laden was concerned.
I'm sure you probably think he just happened to be in the Situation Room emptying the wastebaskets when THAT went down.
That's probably where this conversation is headed, so I'm not interested in it.

Last year, Luckey launched an initiative called Ready Force X to identify key units — the ones that had to get ready rapidly in a crisis — and give them priority for personnel, modernized equipment, training and other resources. RFX has identified about 180 units that would be needed in the first 30 days of an operation because the regular Army simply doesn’t have enough troops in those specialties to keep a major operation going. The RFX analysis also helps Luckey explain to Army planners and leaders what is doable in a deployment and what’s risky.

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https://breakingdefense.com/2018/01/army-reserve-readies-for-major-war-cold-steel-ii/

Notice if you will how something this basic and important was not done till Trump came along. Yes I know that this is the reserves but it is a good window into just how bad practices in the military have gotten.

Hawkeye10 said:

Not a shock given how the military has been so often abused and mismanaged. We are going to get our asses handed to us one day, likely soonish.

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Likely soonish.... now there is a bold statement... :roll:

Guess it depends on what you consider an ass handing.... I'd opine we have had such events from time to time... not sure we agree on the why of it all.

What is shocking is how well it has done of late considering so many 'X-spurts' never did a day in service to GAWD n Country sit and bemoan abuse and mismanagement... eace

beerftw said:

HArdly now, I had that in basic training, in 2009 but I watched things change as I went through the service, they became less prone to doing such things out of fear of punishment, basically xyz commander demands bunk inspections drill and ceremony etc, solier y decides it is too hard and hangs herself, department of the army rains down fire on that tradoc post, crap rolls downhill and not always in the ways of punishment, it an also be experience and training.

Much of this depends on who is commander in chief and who he appoints to the top levels of the military and dod, as they set the directives.


My bct was fairly harsh but the command there allowed rules to slide at fort jackson, my brother the same year got fort sill, and they had cellphones ice cream free time etc, and also could not use forks in the dfac, simply because of one suicide in his bct battallion the cycle before.

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That is absolutely nuts. I didn't go through Navy bootcamp until 2010 and we shined boots, had bunk inspections, took knowledge tests, and had competitions throughout the whole thing. That's why I tend not to believe people saying the military is getting softer, but if cellphones, ice cream, and free time is a thing then maybe there is a point.

Hawkeye10 said:

According to my wife the blame goes 40/60 Bush/Obama as to under whos watch the standards and effectiveness of training dropped, but Obama was the last guy in charge so Obama gets his 60% PLUS the failure to fix Bushes 40%.

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your wife? :lamo ............

Dragonfly said:

The POTUS doesn't have anything to do with daily practices and conduct.

Stop posting moronic nonsense.

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Yes he does. His lack of presence and involvement is his choice as leader to produce an inferior product. As POTUS I would lead troops on runs, and if I could prepare myself physically in advance I would lead them on forced marches. Who the f__ is going to stop me?

cuban smokes said:

your wife? :lamo ............

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Where did you find the funny?

Hawkeye10 said:

https://www.stripes.com/news/basic-...army-will-focus-on-discipline-morale-1.510957

More evidence for those who need it that Obama wrecked the military.

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QUOTES = "The Army will hold recruits to higher physical fitness standards, send them on more realistic combat training exercises and increase its efforts to teach basic skills such as first aid, arm signal communication and shooting rifles using only iron sights, said Maj. Gen. Malcolm Frost, the commander of the Army’s Center for Initial Military Training."

"The final training exercise — called the Forge — will be among the changes that include combat-specific tasks. The 81-hour exercise will consist of a 40-mile road march with tasks along the way, including a medical evacuation exercise, a night infiltration, a mission to resupply troops, an obstacle course and patrols “very much like what they could see in combat,” Frost said."





Well. It is evident. The US Army wants to duplicate the US Marine Corp. Nothing wrong with improving upon.....But for Gods sake - stay original and don't duplicate the other guy ! I was Army ---- I have family members that were Marines and Navy. My dad was in the Corp. But for Gods sake don't copy, mimic another unit.


People in the gun world copy Sig, Smith and Sig Sauer. Other less than fortunate gun companies copy major manufactures.....and it is stupid.


And secondly....based on the US Army "TO&E".....Not every soldier is a "Combat Soldier" ; and does not see the "Front Lines". There is a **** ton of non-combat MOS ( careers ) in the Army. Making something that "Is Not" is not acceptable. I know - I know ---- the Marines do it ; BUT the Marines have a non written policy that "Every Marine is a rifle man".

Military is Military. If you want to "educate" US Armed Forces in basic military operations ----- then it should be standardized in some sort of way MILITARY WIDE.
EACH branch does US and Foreign Weapons - MOUT - Swim / drown proofing / Combat Marches. Then in the end, each does a Marine Corp version of the "Crucible".

It is understandable that each branch has different missions and equipment - but Military is Military. EACH MEMBER should know how to shoot the US Militaries different weapons, swim, camouflage themselves, identify different enemy tanks and helicopters, hand to hand, and read a military map / land navigation. Then do what we in the Army call EOCT = "End of Course Testing". I did the "Paragon Trail" at Ft. Dix ( 1985 ) when I graduated. Patrol, Medical, Commo, S-A-L-U-T-E, challenge and password....ect.


"Shooters......watch your lane and engage ! "





Major Lambda

Dragonfly said:

More evidence you're just posting hyper-partisan hackish nonsense.

The military is the military.
If they believe things have gone bad within their ranks, it's their fault and their fault alone.

Nothing to do with Obama. :roll:

The POTUS doesn't have anything to do with daily practices and conduct.

Stop posting moronic nonsense.

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The US Military is all about Marketing. Chief of Staff Miley ( Special Forces Qualified ) ....in my guess wants Soldiers to walk in an airport or stand at the bus stop and have people say "Oooh, there goes a bad ass person."


I would also venture to say there will be a big "Ad Campain" and public news release ---- letting the civilian public know that US Army Soldiers can knock Choo - Choo trains off their tracks.

Next up --- Gen. Miley tries to get the State Dept let Army folks guard embassies.....which is a Marine tasking. This is nothing more than an image and appearance thing -- Pure and simple.




Major Lambda

MrPeanut said:

That is absolutely nuts. I didn't go through Navy bootcamp until 2010 and we shined boots, had bunk inspections, took knowledge tests, and had competitions throughout the whole thing. That's why I tend not to believe people saying the military is getting softer, but if cellphones, ice cream, and free time is a thing then maybe there is a point.

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I had no cellphone icream etc but my brother did, he went to basic a few days after I did we both enlisted at the same time. I thought it was bs he got to use his cellphone and had sundays off, I had sundays off only if I went to church, and even then as soon as I got back it was waxing the floors and organizing lockers for inspection. my phone use was payphones that the military pulled the pay feature from, and you had to stand in line and got ten minutes per, and it was usually once per 2 weeks unless you could prove you had necessity to use it, otherwise letters were the common method of communication, as the army paid postage and gave them to use for the short free time between cleanup and lights out.

I served under Clinton, Bush and Obama. This has pretty much been going on since 9-11. It is the nature of a war-time military. Emphasis on things like uniform, D&C and even physical fitness tend to slide because there are real world duties to attend to. You would be surprised how many people gain weight when deployed to combat zones. There is nothing sharper looking than a peace-time US military.

I couldn’t care less about the uniform stuff, but discipline and fitness are important to combat readiness so I am all about improving those areas.

Gaugingcatenate said:

Well, lets say I don't laugh at your cnbc report and take it seriously...just what was the crucial role the 0 man played in his 0 economy that is an, as your article clearly admitted, "economy has never been called robust"?

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The point is, the economy has been in recover since Obama's first term, in a steady uphill climb. All Trump has done is manage to not torpedo it, to not interfere enough to screw it up.
And notice I don't say Obama caused the recovery. I just say it's been happening since early in his watch. So please spare me the plaudits for Trump for something that's been going on since long before he was elected, and something he hasn't affected anyway.

maxparrish said:

So if we put 12 year olds in the infantry, and I suggested it was daffy your going to provide the same kind of "are you going to replace him" idiocy?

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Just a fun little historical aside, but we did have 11-12 year olds in the United States Army and they were around as early as the Civil War. This isn't relevant to any actual point I want to make here, but it's just a fun little bit of knowledge to have before you start spouting off false equivalencies.

We're talking about women and Trasngendered individuals who have the kind of bravery to enlist to go into Combat Arms. While I'm not in support of lowering the standards for females, I fully endorse the idea of allowing the females and Transgendered individuals who can match the male standard to serve in whatever MOS they like. Because after all, with my training, I'm more valuable in a SCIF producing products than I am on a battlefield.

maxparrish said:

The infantry and front-line combat units have worked without women (or cross-dressing transexuals or open gays) just fine.

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And they'll operate just fine regardless. The only thing that's truly toxic to the morale of a unit is poor leadership.

maxparrish said:

The decline in morale and indifference to taking their job seriously is likely (in part) due to the fact the military is not taking itself, or its need to be an optimal fighting force. seriously.

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Oh just **** off. You know what hurts morale and "professionalism?" 18 years of non-stop deployments to fight an asymmetric force for a population that doesn't want us there in the first place. Or pot belly NCOs that got in during the 2002 surge burning out quality troops to ETS, only leaving us with more ****bags that sneak in between the ranks than good NCOs that love the military. Gay, and Transgendered individuals have existed in the military in the 1775. Even then, we do tons of gay **** everyday. Want an optimal fighting force? Allow us to officially draw-down and go into peace time to completely focus on training and self-improvement instead of having to make regular rotations out to the Sandbox.

Grand Mal said:

The point is, the economy has been in recover since Obama's first term, in a steady uphill climb. All Trump has done is manage to not torpedo it, to not interfere enough to screw it up.
And notice I don't say Obama caused the recovery. I just say it's been happening since early in his watch. So please spare me the plaudits for Trump for something that's been going on since long before he was elected, and something he hasn't affected anyway.

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It's early yet.....

CMPancake said:

Gay, and Transgendered individuals have existed in the military in the 1775. Even then, we do tons of gay **** everyday.

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This from what was arguably one of the most rock ribbed and square jawed conservatives to ever walk into the halls of Congress.

"Everyone knows that gays have served honorably in the military since at least the time of Julius Caesar.
The Army doesn't care if you are straight, they care if you can shoot straight."
--Barry Goldwater

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Skeptic Bob said:

I served under Clinton, Bush and Obama. This has pretty much been going on since 9-11. It is the nature of a war-time military. Emphasis on things like uniform, D&C and even physical fitness tend to slide because there are real world duties to attend to. You would be surprised how many people gain weight when deployed to combat zones. There is nothing sharper looking than a peace-time US military.

I couldn’t care less about the uniform stuff, but discipline and fitness are important to combat readiness so I am all about improving those areas.

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How squared away you look in your uniform back in the rear is reflective of your own individual discipline. That applies to FBI agents and uniformed street cops. The former having a higher standard. Just like State Troopers. How many sloppy and obese State Troopers do you see? I've never seen one. I have seen a quite a few city cops like that though in uniform.


Under Trump too: https://www.military.com/daily-news...-major-obstacle-female-infantry-officers.html

Marine Corps Quietly Drops Major Obstacle to Female Infantry Officers

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With no notice and little formal explanation, the Marine Corps altered one of its notoriously grueling rites of passage late last year, changing the combat endurance test on the first day of its Infantry Officer Course from a pass/fail requirement to an unscored exercise.

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It’s not difficult to understand why the test has presented such a barrier to women. In addition to other physically and mentally challenging tasks, it requires Marines to hike dozens of miles with combat loads weighing up to 152 pounds and complete an obstacle course that includes scaling a 20-foot rope multiple times and getting over an eight-foot bar.

Many female Marines weigh less than that 152-pound load.

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US Marine Corps officer Infantry training and requirements are much tougher than enlisted Marine infantry training. So, I want to be fair and note that up front. Supposedly, the officer O Course is challenging to even a lot of made men of Force Recon in the US Marine Corps. Supposedly, or so I have heard. But I want to point out I weighed around 130 pounds when I went through and graduated from School of Infantry on the West Coast (meaning, damned hills to run and march). And at the that time I passed through the toughest SOI company: Alpha Company. Delta Company at the time I went through was the easiest SOI company to pass through.

The Alpha Company I went through at SOI was hell. A nightmare. Worse than boot camp. And no... no American is going to convince me that enlisted WM's (Woman Marines) that are graduating SOI today are going through the daily standards of Alpha Company when I was in. I suspect all SOI companies have downgraded to the equivalency of Delta Company's standards when I was in. E.g., jogging daily in full battle gear rather than running daily in full battle gear.

Lots of male Marines were my size that went through SOI and Alpha Company. Lots. As in again: lots.

Our bone structure was and is more "robust" than the female Marines that were our size or even taller and heavier than us.

I mean... you have those two female Army soldiers that passed through Ranger School, and look in the face like they have been taking steroids or human growth hormones (their facial bones look more "robust" than the typical woman's).

Here is a comment under that article:

36677388 2 hours ago

I was a Marine Mustang, having first enlisted, earned the EGA and meritorious PFC out of Boot Camp, later to be invited to Quantico to earn my Commission. I commanded a Rifle Platoon in RVN as a Grunt Infantry Officer with 5th Marines operating in a freefire zone called the Arizona Territory/Dodge City. Been there, done that. Know this: Few males can qualify as Grunts. Far fewer females should even want to try. Leading Marines on the battlefield, not a computer screen or admin venue, cannot be done by a girl who is the weakest in the unit ... and I don't care if she is adorned in the uniform of Admiral of the Fleet, or Supreme Allied Commander. Both of our sons have done their duty to Corps and Country, and we have no daughters, so I also do not give a flying flock how many ladies are given the rank and title of Grunt Unit Commander. But life is real, life is earnest, people, and the battlefield is NOT being made kinder and gentler. Semper Fi.

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Major Lambda said:

QUOTES =It is understandable that each branch has different missions and equipment - but Military is Military. EACH MEMBER should know how to shoot the US Militaries different weapons, swim, camouflage themselves, identify different enemy tanks and helicopters, hand to hand, and read a military map / land navigation. Then do what we in the Army call EOCT = "End of Course Testing". I did the "Paragon Trail" at Ft. Dix ( 1985 ) when I graduated. Patrol, Medical, Commo, S-A-L-U-T-E, challenge and password....ect.

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How long do you want to train a soldier before sending them to combat. You could spend years getting a soldier ready for combat only to have them freeze unable to move the minute he sees someone's head explode from a bullet. The Rambo super soldier is a wonderful idea but in reality you will have a very small army because everyone would wash out. Basic skills is the most we can expect from the average person along with specializing in several areas. I do not need to know how to operate a tank to be a great MP.

I trained for most of my 3 years I was an MP. All my training was related to police work. I haven't a clue how to operate a tank or an artillery cannon. A tank operator doesn't need hostage negotiation training.

PIPEWRENCH said:

How long do you want to train a soldier before sending them to combat. You could spend years getting a soldier ready for combat only to have them freeze unable to move the minute he sees someone's head explode from a bullet. The Rambo super soldier is a wonderful idea but in reality you will have a very small army because everyone would wash out. Basic skills is the most we can expect from the average person along with specializing in several areas. I do not need to know how to operate a tank to be a great MP.

I trained for most of my 3 years I was an MP. All my training was related to police work. I haven't a clue how to operate a tank or an artillery cannon. A tank operator doesn't need hostage negotiation training.

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Longer than we used to:

“We have 18 and 19-year-old kids coming into basic training that can’t skip or perform a forward roll,” says Frank Palkoska, Chief of the US Army’s Physical Fitness Training School. “They have not learned the motor patterns to execute these basic movements. It’s very difficult to get a person through an obstacle course when they’re starting so far behind, and ten weeks isn’t enough to get them up to speed. You acquire most of your basic movement patterns by first grade, and our youth today just aren’t getting the physical education time they need. Lack of fitness is a societal problem. The injury rate is developing into a taxpayer concern in terms of medical care and lost training expenses. And the lack of qualified recruits it is becoming a national security issue.”

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Military physical training: It?s a problem bigger than obesity, with no easy solutions – Foreign Policy




EDIT: Have I mentioned lately that we REALLY suck at raising adults?

We Are ****ed.

Grand Mal said:

The point is, the economy has been in recover since Obama's first term, in a steady uphill climb. All Trump has done is manage to not torpedo it, to not interfere enough to screw it up.
And notice I don't say Obama caused the recovery. I just say it's been happening since early in his watch. So please spare me the plaudits for Trump for something that's been going on since long before he was elected, and something he hasn't affected anyway.

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While those are nice, almost even handed sounding sentiments ...they actually express an apparent affected simplicity.

Even a low information, casual observer of the news equipped with some worldly experience while enduring the administration of tall, dark and slender socialist, even they could see the growing tidal wave of consumer confidence building as soon as the election results came in. 0 man could not " wave a magic wand" to keep companies from leaving, he certainly never even lifted much more than a lethargic pinky towards inspiring, exciting the spirit of the productive innovative juices that are innate in the descendents of the immigrants that fled other nations, some great but extremely restrictive on talent relying upon closed systems of upward mobility. Its in our nature and only requires leaders to let us off the leash. Your country, our friend and neighbor, has benefitted tremendously from your cultural and geographic proximity.

Slender man merely set out to manage our supposed decline. That is obvious to even rather unsophisticated bystander if not held back by ideological blinders. All see the investment, natural, repatriated and voluntary, surging, flooding back into the US, the enthusiasm returning to my great nation as soon as the pessimists claws were removed from our real Americans necks.

Now we just need to remove all the negative statist termites and the rotted wood they infected and get on with the job of re-inspiring the free world.