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Conscientious Objection

Conscientious objection to military service?

  • I'm for, nobody should be forced for this in this century.

    Votes: 14 100.0%

  • Nay, military service is sacred and something be proud of.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    14
Goshin said:
That is a very entertaining thought.
Put The Donald and Kim Jong in the big cage. Two men enter, one man leaves! :D
Nobody would want to fight Putin though.
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Lol, Donald v. Kim would be the most watched fight of the century. Two morbidly obese assholes duking it out and putting their own lives on the line instead of sacrificing thousands or millions of other people's lives.

On another note, I think a draft brings a lot of malicious compliance. If you force me to work for you at the tip of the gun I'm going to find little ways of getting justice anywhere I can. Volunteer armies are unequivocally better than conscripted ones, they just have to make the military attractive enough for people to do it willingly, which admittedly the US does.

joG said:
Would you go so far as provoking the men you refused to hold a position to shoot you?
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What...?
 
Redress said:
During times of conscription, I think it is important to have a conscientious objector program. And it is important to note that many of those who have served as conscientious objectors have still died in the service of their country.
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In a country, whose constitution guarantees free practice of religion in the wording ours does, it would seem difficult to argue that a law should be passed that did not allow atleast religiously based objection. Objection, because you don't want to take the risk doesn't really cut the grass.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Lol, Donald v. Kim would be the most watched fight of the century. Two morbidly obese assholes duking it out and putting their own lives on the line instead of sacrificing thousands or millions of other people's lives.

On another note, I think a draft brings a lot of malicious compliance. If you force me to work for you at the tip of the gun I'm going to find little ways of getting justice anywhere I can. Volunteer armies are unequivocally better than conscripted ones, they just have to make the military attractive enough for people to do it willingly, which admittedly the US does.



What...?
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What? That is the position you would put the soldiers around you in by refusing to shoot. It is one of the most often used justifications I heard, why folks worked with dictatorships.

True. Usually they are honest enough to admit that it was their own lives that they fretted for and not their comdards' souls.
 
joG said:
In a country, whose constitution guarantees free practice of religion in the wording ours does, it would seem difficult to argue that a law should be passed that did not allow atleast religiously based objection. Objection, because you don't want to take the risk doesn't really cut the grass.
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Ok, my religion, Alpacaism, says war is bad. Therefore I don't have to go. Problem solved.

joG said:
What? That is the position you would put the soldiers around you in by refusing to shoot. It is one of the most often used justifications I heard, why folks worked with dictatorships.
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Uh huh. I will not be going anywhere near the front line in a combat role and shooting me isn't going to win our side the war. Why don't you sign up and fight the war for me if you like the idea so much?
 
Goshin said:
Yup, well hardly any short and pithy saying can cover all bases and details and caveats.

I posted it because I tend to agree with the general sentiment. If the citizenry loves their country so little that they won't defend it willingly, it probably doesn't deserve to survive.
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Game theory would tend to contradict the voluntary defense without coercion thesis. The rational thing to do would be to let the others die, as one soldier more or less would not make the difference. So avoiding duty or trying to get a desk job like some here say they would because they don't believe in killing people they don't know is actually a quite normal and usually hypocritical survival strategy and has nothing to do with morals in most cases.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Ok, my religion, Alpacaism, says war is bad. Therefore I don't have to go. Problem solved.



Uh huh. I will not be going anywhere near the front line in a combat role and shooting me isn't going to win our side the war. Why don't you sign up and fight the war for me if you like the idea so much?
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I am not so sure that you are right that under the assumed circumstances of war shooting you would not be the game theory optimizing decision. You see, doing it sets the precedent and standard that discourages other "cowards" from behavior that would loose the war, were it to become a mass event.

It's really very simple and an example used in introductions to game theory.
 
joG said:
I am not so sure that you are right that under the assumed circumstances of war shooting you would not be the game theory optimizing decision. You see, doing it sets the precedent and standard that discourages other "cowards" from behavior that would loose the war, were it to become a mass event.

It's really very simple and an example used in introductions to game theory.
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Not interested in your game theory. You already said you support conscientious objection on religious grounds and I've already declared my religion to be incompatible with war. Good solution.
 
Goshin said:
My brother in law was a Conscientious Objector in the Vietnam War.

He still had to serve. He went into the combat zones. He did so as a medic, carrying no weapon but taking the same risks as any infantryman.

I respect that he had the courage of his convictions to accept those risks while refusing to fight due to his principles, and spent the war trying to save lives. He was nearly killed on more than one occasion.


If a nation is fighting against a foreign invader on their own soil, the citizen who will not take up arms in defense of his own land is contemptible, imho.

In all other wars, each man's conscience should be his guide, and I think no man should be compelled to serve unwillingly.
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Though I was not a CO, I was in a helicopter ambulance unit and many of the medics were CO.

In those days of the draft, it was handled through the draft. One declared CO to the draft board, and it was transferred to and through military channels.

Now that the draft is gone, I've heard and read that CO status must be granted by the military to the individual, and sometimes it is difficult to get that status.
 
Thoreau72 said:
Though I was not a CO, I was in a helicopter ambulance unit and many of the medics were CO.
In those days of the draft, it was handled through the draft. One declared CO to the draft board, and it was transferred to and through military channels.
Now that the draft is gone, I've heard and read that CO status must be granted by the military to the individual, and sometimes it is difficult to get that status.
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In Afghanistan the MEDEVAC guys were the bravest souls I came across. While other pilots would constantly cancel flying into our AO for dumb reasons they would always risk it no matter how bad it was.
 
The only thing worse than forcing people to serve is forcing them to kill.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Speaking as a combat veteran who has already served his time, if they were to reinstate the draft and call me back up, I would with 100% certainty file for conscientious objector status and would not partake in combat. If they force me to join regardless it'll be only in a non-combat role. I no longer believe in the concept of killing some dude I don't even know because our politicians are having an ideological disagreement. If they want a war so much they can fight it themselves, perhaps televised in a Thunderdome like arena.
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If the United Sates were under attack, I could fight in good conscience. When Afghanistan and Iraq broke out, I talked my son out of joining, and got him on with a good paying job with a local contractor. He was flabbergasted with my reasoning at the time but trusted my instincts on why these wars weren't right. I simply told him that he would look back and shake his head about participating in another Vietnam in the sense that we would have accomplished nothing by time it was all over.

Looking back, he's glad he didn't join up.
 
RetiredUSN said:
If the United Sates were under attack, I could fight in good conscience. When Afghanistan and Iraq broke out, I talked my son out of joining, and got him on with a good paying job with a local contractor. He was flabbergasted with my reasoning at the time but trusted my instincts on why these wars weren't right. I simply told him that he would look back and shake his head about participating in another Vietnam in the sense that we would have accomplished nothing by time it was all over.

Looking back, he's glad he didn't join up.
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Nice foresight. That's pretty much how I'd describe them. Vietnam but longer and less bloody. I would only consider taking up arms in defense of the country from a very dire threat, I will never again carry guns in someone else's country to try to enforce our political will on them.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Not interested in your game theory. You already said you support conscientious objection on religious grounds and I've already declared my religion to be incompatible with war. Good solution.
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It is not my game theory, but a method of applied logic. And as to your profession of conscience, I am convinced that you won't convince the jury after your rulings against religion. I dont think you are telling the truthto disguise asocial opinions.
 
joG said:
It is not my game theory, but a method of applied logic. And as to your profession of conscience, I am convinced that you won't convince the jury after your rulings against religion. I dont think you are telling the truthto disguise asocial opinions.
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Uh huh, well I tell you what, when you've served longer than me you can tell me all about how "asocial" I am for not wanting to do it anymore. I'm also not against all religion, just the ****ty ones.
 
Short of another global conflict, we should not have another draft. And even if we did, the reports are that only about 40% of the general population at most could be drafted anyways. Most are simply to fat, to poorly educated, have criminal records, or have addiction issues.
 
Oozlefinch said:
Short of another global conflict, we should not have another draft. And even if we did, the reports are that only about 40% of the general population at most could be drafted anyways. Most are simply to fat, to poorly educated, have criminal records, or have addiction issues.
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Hell, one or more of those described my last command....;)
 
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