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Military Officers Right To Disobey Trump Nuclear Issues & War

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Tangmo

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A USMC active duty Colonel argues in the official journal of the National Defense University that officers have the moral duty and the obligation by their commission and their oath to disobey a legal order from the President/Commander in Chief.

USMC Special Operations Commander Colonel Andrew L. Milburn argued in the journal that...


A survey conducted among students at the Marine Corps War College (MCWAR) in January 2010 represents a cross section of 20 senior field-grade officers from all Services and two foreign countries. Without exception, they agreed that there are circumstances under which they would disobey a lawful order. Their criteria vary little, as these excerpts illustrate:

* "If the officer cannot live with obeying the order, then he must disobey and accept the consequences."
* "When I cannot look at myself in the mirror afterwards."
* "When I deem the order to be immoral."
* "When it is going to lead to mission failure."
* "When it will get someone injured or killed needlessly."
* "When it will cause military or institutional disaster."

These comments reflect the view that the military professional has moral obligations more fundamental than obedience and loyalty to their leaders, civilian or military. Myers and Kohn imply that the term moral is too subjective to be defendable. However, I argue that the military profession is founded on clearly defined moral principles.

I use the term military professional to apply to military officers. I make this distinction based on the nature of the officer's professional military education, which focuses on developing an abstract body of knowledge; his code of ethics, which reflect the "special trust and confidence" conferred on him by the President and Congress in his commission; and his oath of office, which differs in an important aspect from the enlisted oath. These defining characteristics of the military profession impose on him obligations beyond obedience.


https://www.army.mil/article/47175/breaking-ranks-dissent-and-the-military-professional/


Colonel Milburn earned a B.A. in Philosophy from London University and a law degree from Polytechnic of Central London. He enlisted in USMC in 1987.

Colonel Milurn's philosophy of civilian-military relations would indicate the U.S. military would be justified to refuse an order by Potus Trump to initiate "first use" of nuclear weapons. While the U.S. does maintain its policy of executing a first use ("all options are on the table"), it likely would be a bad idea for a Potus Trump to be the first to implement the first use policy (since 1945).

Ne c'est pas?
 
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Disobeying would be stupid. An officer, even a general, is not privy to all the intelligence provided to the President. For all the officer knows, NK is about to launch nukes.

The officer balks, NK launches nukes which could have been prevented, the officer is instantly one of the worst people to ever exist.
 
Disobeying would be stupid. An officer, even a general, is not privy to all the intelligence provided to the President. For all the officer knows, NK is about to launch nukes.

The officer balks, NK launches nukes which could have been prevented, the officer is instantly one of the worst people to ever exist.

I don't think we have to worry about that with this particular President. The chances of a General or even Lieutenant in the National Guard, not knowing more than Trump, is as close to zero as you can get without being zero.
 
I don't think we have to worry about that with this particular President. The chances of a General or even Lieutenant in the National Guard, not knowing more than Trump, is as close to zero as you can get without being zero.

For better or for worse, Trump is at least lucid enough to know to defer judgement of military actions to the SecDef, and Joint Chiefs. They would advise what to do, and Trump would use his authority to perform actions.
 
A USMC active duty Colonel argues in the official journal of the National Defense University that officers have the moral duty and the obligation by their commission and their oath to disobey a legal order from the President/Commander in Chief.

USMC Special Operations Commander Colonel Andrew L. Milburn argued in the journal that...


A survey conducted among students at the Marine Corps War College (MCWAR) in January 2010 represents a cross section of 20 senior field-grade officers from all Services and two foreign countries. Without exception, they agreed that there are circumstances under which they would disobey a lawful order. Their criteria vary little, as these excerpts illustrate:

* "If the officer cannot live with obeying the order, then he must disobey and accept the consequences."
* "When I cannot look at myself in the mirror afterwards."
* "When I deem the order to be immoral."
* "When it is going to lead to mission failure."
* "When it will get someone injured or killed needlessly."
* "When it will cause military or institutional disaster."

These comments reflect the view that the military professional has moral obligations more fundamental than obedience and loyalty to their leaders, civilian or military. Myers and Kohn imply that the term moral is too subjective to be defendable. However, I argue that the military profession is founded on clearly defined moral principles.

I use the term military professional to apply to military officers. I make this distinction based on the nature of the officer's professional military education, which focuses on developing an abstract body of knowledge; his code of ethics, which reflect the "special trust and confidence" conferred on him by the President and Congress in his commission; and his oath of office, which differs in an important aspect from the enlisted oath. These defining characteristics of the military profession impose on him obligations beyond obedience.


https://www.army.mil/article/47175/breaking-ranks-dissent-and-the-military-professional/


Colonel Milburn earned a B.A. in Philosophy from London University and a law degree from Polytechnic of Central London. He enlisted in USMC in 1987.

Colonel Milurn's philosophy of civilian-military relations would indicate the U.S. military would be justified to refuse an order by Potus Trump to initiate "first use" of nuclear weapons. While the U.S. does maintain its policy of executing a first use ("all options are on the table"), it likely would be a bad idea for a Potus Trump to be the first to implement the first use policy (since 1945).

Ne c'est pas?

Sounds like they are fomenting treason.
 
I don't think we have to worry about that with this particular President. The chances of a General or even Lieutenant in the National Guard, not knowing more than Trump, is as close to zero as you can get without being zero.

That would imply a failure with the intelligence services, which, in a roundabout way, would actually make Trump right.

I don't think anyone wants to say that, especially not outloud.
 
A USMC active duty Colonel argues in the official journal of the National Defense University that officers have the moral duty and the obligation by their commission and their oath to disobey a legal order from the President/Commander in Chief.

USMC Special Operations Commander Colonel Andrew L. Milburn argued in the journal that...


A survey conducted among students at the Marine Corps War College (MCWAR) in January 2010 represents a cross section of 20 senior field-grade officers from all Services and two foreign countries. Without exception, they agreed that there are circumstances under which they would disobey a lawful order. Their criteria vary little, as these excerpts illustrate:

* "If the officer cannot live with obeying the order, then he must disobey and accept the consequences."
* "When I cannot look at myself in the mirror afterwards."
* "When I deem the order to be immoral."
* "When it is going to lead to mission failure."
* "When it will get someone injured or killed needlessly."
* "When it will cause military or institutional disaster."

These comments reflect the view that the military professional has moral obligations more fundamental than obedience and loyalty to their leaders, civilian or military. Myers and Kohn imply that the term moral is too subjective to be defendable. However, I argue that the military profession is founded on clearly defined moral principles.

I use the term military professional to apply to military officers. I make this distinction based on the nature of the officer's professional military education, which focuses on developing an abstract body of knowledge; his code of ethics, which reflect the "special trust and confidence" conferred on him by the President and Congress in his commission; and his oath of office, which differs in an important aspect from the enlisted oath. These defining characteristics of the military profession impose on him obligations beyond obedience.


https://www.army.mil/article/47175/breaking-ranks-dissent-and-the-military-professional/


Colonel Milburn earned a B.A. in Philosophy from London University and a law degree from Polytechnic of Central London. He enlisted in USMC in 1987.

Colonel Milurn's philosophy of civilian-military relations would indicate the U.S. military would be justified to refuse an order by Potus Trump to initiate "first use" of nuclear weapons. While the U.S. does maintain its policy of executing a first use ("all options are on the table"), it likely would be a bad idea for a Potus Trump to be the first to implement the first use policy (since 1945).

Ne c'est pas?

This active duty dip**** should be made non-active duty, immediately.
 
Sounds like they are fomenting treason.


U.S. hasn't convicted anyone of treason since the time of Tokyo Rose ad Axis Sally. The Rosenbergs were convicted of espionage.

There have only been about a dozen convictions for treason and many of 'em go back to very early on. The defeated General Robert E. Lee was indicted for treason by a grand jury in Norfolk VA in 1865 -- United States v Lee. Graybeard applied for a pardon two months later so he lost no time in trying to save his tush.

It's Trump, Manafort, Flynn and the gang that are going down for espionage and swindling bucks for personal profit against the national security and in violation of U.S. laws.

Colonel Milburn published the thesis in the official journal of the National Defense University which is at Ft. McNair in Washington DC. It was carried in other military journals such as army.mil.com>

The colonel who is also a lawyer is a major theorist and advocate in a serious discussion.
 
A USMC active duty Colonel argues in the official journal of the National Defense University that officers have the moral duty and the obligation by their commission and their oath to disobey a legal order from the President/Commander in Chief.

USMC Special Operations Commander Colonel Andrew L. Milburn argued in the journal that...


A survey conducted among students at the Marine Corps War College (MCWAR) in January 2010 represents a cross section of 20 senior field-grade officers from all Services and two foreign countries. Without exception, they agreed that there are circumstances under which they would disobey a lawful order. Their criteria vary little, as these excerpts illustrate:

* "If the officer cannot live with obeying the order, then he must disobey and accept the consequences."
* "When I cannot look at myself in the mirror afterwards."
* "When I deem the order to be immoral."
* "When it is going to lead to mission failure."
* "When it will get someone injured or killed needlessly."
* "When it will cause military or institutional disaster."

These comments reflect the view that the military professional has moral obligations more fundamental than obedience and loyalty to their leaders, civilian or military. Myers and Kohn imply that the term moral is too subjective to be defendable. However, I argue that the military profession is founded on clearly defined moral principles.

I use the term military professional to apply to military officers. I make this distinction based on the nature of the officer's professional military education, which focuses on developing an abstract body of knowledge; his code of ethics, which reflect the "special trust and confidence" conferred on him by the President and Congress in his commission; and his oath of office, which differs in an important aspect from the enlisted oath. These defining characteristics of the military profession impose on him obligations beyond obedience.


https://www.army.mil/article/47175/breaking-ranks-dissent-and-the-military-professional/


Colonel Milburn earned a B.A. in Philosophy from London University and a law degree from Polytechnic of Central London. He enlisted in USMC in 1987.

Colonel Milurn's philosophy of civilian-military relations would indicate the U.S. military would be justified to refuse an order by Potus Trump to initiate "first use" of nuclear weapons. While the U.S. does maintain its policy of executing a first use ("all options are on the table"), it likely would be a bad idea for a Potus Trump to be the first to implement the first use policy (since 1945).

Ne c'est pas?

All this to say they would not obey a first use order? No POTUS is EVER going to give an order to "first use." That is NEVER going to happen. We don't need no stinkin' nuclear weapons to rain down hellfire.
 
A USMC active duty Colonel argues in the official journal of the National Defense University that officers have the moral duty and the obligation by their commission and their oath to disobey a legal order from the President/Commander in Chief.

USMC Special Operations Commander Colonel Andrew L. Milburn argued in the journal that...


A survey conducted among students at the Marine Corps War College (MCWAR) in January 2010 represents a cross section of 20 senior field-grade officers from all Services and two foreign countries. Without exception, they agreed that there are circumstances under which they would disobey a lawful order. Their criteria vary little, as these excerpts illustrate:

* "If the officer cannot live with obeying the order, then he must disobey and accept the consequences."
* "When I cannot look at myself in the mirror afterwards."
* "When I deem the order to be immoral."
* "When it is going to lead to mission failure."
* "When it will get someone injured or killed needlessly."
* "When it will cause military or institutional disaster."

These comments reflect the view that the military professional has moral obligations more fundamental than obedience and loyalty to their leaders, civilian or military. Myers and Kohn imply that the term moral is too subjective to be defendable. However, I argue that the military profession is founded on clearly defined moral principles.

I use the term military professional to apply to military officers. I make this distinction based on the nature of the officer's professional military education, which focuses on developing an abstract body of knowledge; his code of ethics, which reflect the "special trust and confidence" conferred on him by the President and Congress in his commission; and his oath of office, which differs in an important aspect from the enlisted oath. These defining characteristics of the military profession impose on him obligations beyond obedience.


https://www.army.mil/article/47175/breaking-ranks-dissent-and-the-military-professional/

Those bolded "examples" are personal objections which might lead an officer to chose to diobey, but the bolded and underlined one offers a qualification that is key.

Military personnel have both a duty and a right to disobey an illegal order.

Unlawful orders (at least when I was in the service) include those that violate the laws of land warfare, the Geneva Convention, or run contrary to the Constitution.

But even then, all military personnel are subject to criminal charges under the Uniform Code of Military Justice Articles 90, 91, and 92.

Those are the consequences referred to in the bolded and underlined comment.
 
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That would imply a failure with the intelligence services, which, in a roundabout way, would actually make Trump right.

I don't think anyone wants to say that, especially not outloud.

Intelligence services could explain everything to him in intricate detail, doesn't mean he understands or knows it once they are done. They literally have to give him summaries with his name in each paragraph just to make sure he reads the whole page. It's not intelligence's failures he's literally to stupid to read one page.
 
Disobeying would be stupid. An officer, even a general, is not privy to all the intelligence provided to the President. For all the officer knows, NK is about to launch nukes.

The officer balks, NK launches nukes which could have been prevented, the officer is instantly one of the worst people to ever exist.


It is Potus who gets informed by civilian intelligence agencies and by military intelligence. That's their job -- to inform Potus and to present Potus with options for his decision making when he orders options to be presented to him.

The last Potus we had who graduated from a service academy was Jimmy Carter from USNA. Ike before him from USMA. They relied on intelligence both civilian and military. Recall the U-2 spyplane shootdown over the USSR? Potus gets his information from those kind of sources.

Potus makes the policy decisions and needs the intelligence info, advice and recommendations from his JCS. Chairman of JCS informs and advises Potus in these respects, not vice-versa.

The only real secrets Potus has is in the present instance when Putin whispers in his ear.
 
Intelligence services could explain everything to him in intricate detail, doesn't mean he understands or knows it once they are done. They literally have to give him summaries with his name in each paragraph just to make sure he reads the whole page. It's not intelligence's failures he's literally to stupid to read one page.

Why take the low road, when there are plenty of good arguments to use instead. "Blarg, heeeeee's stooopid!" helps Trump in the long run.

Chaos is a ladder. Stop putting rungs on it.
 
The only real secrets Potus has is in the present instance when Putin whispers in his ear.

That does not counter my statement. A general would not be completely aware of the situation on the ground with regard to intel. A pilot, ship or sub captain certainly would not.

It's ludicrous to suggest anyone would disobey. A NK general or officer could because he might know his country and perhaps nation will cease to exist.
 
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Why take the low road, when there are plenty of good arguments to use instead. "Blarg, heeeeee's stooopid!" helps Trump in the long run.

Chaos is a ladder. Stop putting rungs on it.

If you can't see he's as dumb as a bag if hammers by this point, you deserve him.
 
For better or for worse, Trump is at least lucid enough to know to defer judgement of military actions to the SecDef, and Joint Chiefs. They would advise what to do, and Trump would use his authority to perform actions.


Trump sitting by his lonesome tweeting at 3 a.m can just as easily press the red button right there next to him.
 
Disobeying would be stupid. An officer, even a general, is not privy to all the intelligence provided to the President. For all the officer knows, NK is about to launch nukes.

In reality, the senior generals get more intel than that provided to the President. If NK was about to launch missiles, the Generals and Admirals in the Pentagon and in major commands would know about it and likely before the President did. Or did you forget that DIA, NSA, and NGA are Dept of Defense agencies?
 
A USMC active duty Colonel argues in the official journal of the National Defense University that officers have the moral duty and the obligation by their commission and their oath to disobey a legal order from the President/Commander in Chief.

USMC Special Operations Commander Colonel Andrew L. Milburn argued in the journal that...


A survey conducted among students at the Marine Corps War College (MCWAR) in January 2010 represents a cross section of 20 senior field-grade officers from all Services and two foreign countries. Without exception, they agreed that there are circumstances under which they would disobey a lawful order. Their criteria vary little, as these excerpts illustrate:

* "If the officer cannot live with obeying the order, then he must disobey and accept the consequences."
* "When I cannot look at myself in the mirror afterwards."
* "When I deem the order to be immoral."
* "When it is going to lead to mission failure."
* "When it will get someone injured or killed needlessly."
* "When it will cause military or institutional disaster."

These comments reflect the view that the military professional has moral obligations more fundamental than obedience and loyalty to their leaders, civilian or military. Myers and Kohn imply that the term moral is too subjective to be defendable. However, I argue that the military profession is founded on clearly defined moral principles.

I use the term military professional to apply to military officers. I make this distinction based on the nature of the officer's professional military education, which focuses on developing an abstract body of knowledge; his code of ethics, which reflect the "special trust and confidence" conferred on him by the President and Congress in his commission; and his oath of office, which differs in an important aspect from the enlisted oath. These defining characteristics of the military profession impose on him obligations beyond obedience.


https://www.army.mil/article/47175/breaking-ranks-dissent-and-the-military-professional/


Colonel Milburn earned a B.A. in Philosophy from London University and a law degree from Polytechnic of Central London. He enlisted in USMC in 1987.

Colonel Milurn's philosophy of civilian-military relations would indicate the U.S. military would be justified to refuse an order by Potus Trump to initiate "first use" of nuclear weapons. While the U.S. does maintain its policy of executing a first use ("all options are on the table"), it likely would be a bad idea for a Potus Trump to be the first to implement the first use policy (since 1945).

Ne c'est pas?

You felt this rediculous notion needed it's own thread?
 
A USMC active duty Colonel argues in the official journal of the National Defense University that officers have the moral duty and the obligation by their commission and their oath to disobey a legal order from the President/Commander in Chief.

USMC Special Operations Commander Colonel Andrew L. Milburn argued in the journal that...


A survey conducted among students at the Marine Corps War College (MCWAR) in January 2010 represents a cross section of 20 senior field-grade officers from all Services and two foreign countries. Without exception, they agreed that there are circumstances under which they would disobey a lawful order. Their criteria vary little, as these excerpts illustrate:

* "If the officer cannot live with obeying the order, then he must disobey and accept the consequences."
* "When I cannot look at myself in the mirror afterwards."
* "When I deem the order to be immoral."
* "When it is going to lead to mission failure."
* "When it will get someone injured or killed needlessly."
* "When it will cause military or institutional disaster."

These comments reflect the view that the military professional has moral obligations more fundamental than obedience and loyalty to their leaders, civilian or military. Myers and Kohn imply that the term moral is too subjective to be defendable. However, I argue that the military profession is founded on clearly defined moral principles.

I use the term military professional to apply to military officers. I make this distinction based on the nature of the officer's professional military education, which focuses on developing an abstract body of knowledge; his code of ethics, which reflect the "special trust and confidence" conferred on him by the President and Congress in his commission; and his oath of office, which differs in an important aspect from the enlisted oath. These defining characteristics of the military profession impose on him obligations beyond obedience.


https://www.army.mil/article/47175/breaking-ranks-dissent-and-the-military-professional/


Colonel Milburn earned a B.A. in Philosophy from London University and a law degree from Polytechnic of Central London. He enlisted in USMC in 1987.

Colonel Milurn's philosophy of civilian-military relations would indicate the U.S. military would be justified to refuse an order by Potus Trump to initiate "first use" of nuclear weapons. While the U.S. does maintain its policy of executing a first use ("all options are on the table"), it likely would be a bad idea for a Potus Trump to be the first to implement the first use policy (since 1945).

Ne c'est pas?

In consideration of the above, it's less a concern for me that Trump would act irrationally with a nuke than it is the "resistors" in the intel community would intentionally withhold information pertinent to Trump's ability to make a properly informed decision.
 
Those bolded "examples" are personal objections which might lead an officer to chose to diobey, but the bolded and underlined one offers a qualification that is key.

Military personnel have both a duty and a right to disobey an illegal order.

Unlawful orders (at least when I was in the service) include those that violate the laws of land warfare, the Geneva Convention, or run contrary to the Constitution.

But even then, all military personnel are subject to criminal charges under the Uniform Code of Military Justice Articles 90, 91, and 92.

Those are the consequences referred to in the bolded and underlined comment.

The problem with disobeying sn "unlawful" order is that one better make damn sure he's right when he does so.
 
If you can't see he's as dumb as a bag if hammers by this point, you deserve him.

What we see is the usual Leftist mouth frothing because they lost the election.
 
Trump sitting by his lonesome tweeting at 3 a.m can just as easily press the red button right there next to him.

It doesn't work like that. :lamo
 
It doesn't work like that. :lamo


A major problem with the rightwing is that they're almost always literal.

Trump however left literal behind long ago.

He went instead arse first into delusion.
 
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A major problem with the rightwing is that they're almost always literal.

Trump however left literal behind long ago.

He went instead arse first into delusion.

The problem with the left wing is they think laws can be modified however they choose.
 
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